elger Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 In February 2017 in the WW2 section of this forum there was a thread on Italeri's 1/72 Short Stirling. In the thread, @12jaguar pointed out some of the kit's many odd flaws and hinted at the existence of a small window in a hatch on the Stirling's fuselage. This peaked my interest, since for several years, my father has had a hatch from a Stirling hanging in his hallway - the hatch had been recovered from a fisherman who caught it in a net while fishing in the Waddenzee. The thing was, that with the markings stamped into the metal we had identified the piece as originating from a Stirling, but we were never able to find out where it fits on the aircraft. From my subsequent discussion with @12jaguar I learned that this hatch was only fitted to early Stirlings. Based on this information, it has become increasingly more likely that the hatch came from the wreck of Stirling W7442, which was lost on June 26th, 1942, on the 1000 bomber raid on Bremen. In order to mount such a force, the RAF had to press training crew into action too - hence the participation of this aircraft and its crew, consisting of F/L W.M.Livingston KIA Sgt W.Bennett MIA P/O L.A.Booth MIA P/O F.L.Flynn RCAF MIA P/O A.J.Kenny KIA Sgt R.Coates KIA P/O J.Graham DFM MIA Livingston, Kenny, and Coates are buried in Harlingen. The aircraft was most likely shot down by Lothar Linke, although it was a Vickers Wellington he claimed in his combat report. Harlingen is not far from where Linke made his claim, and where the fisherman found the hatch. The aircraft, W7442, had served with 7 Squadron but had, apparently, been relegated to 1651 Conversion Unit, a training unit. By 1942 standards, this model of the Stirling was indeed somewhat obsolete: it had earlier, less powerful versions of the Hercules engine and was not equipped with a mid-upper turret, for instance. Coincidentally, W7442 is one of the decal options in the Italeri kit, in its original 7 Squadron markings. Below a photo of the aircraft when it was used by 7 Squadron, and below that a well-known photo of Stirlings of 1651 Conversion Unit in flight (these are not W7442 but I think to give a good impression of what the aircraft might have looked like, minus the upper turret. Also notice that some of the aircraft have the rear landing gear down, since many of the old aircraft had them welded in place because of frequent malfunctioning of the retraction gear). The Italeri kit has been widely discussed, and, appropriately heavily criticized. I won't repeat everything that's been said about it, but will make a couple of observations. 1) Given the choice, I still prefer it over the ancient Airfix kit. It simply is better. 2) Although it is better, and kudos to Italeri for making a model of a Stirling to begin with, it's really weird. Its surface detail is what has been criticized the most. Here is a photo of the Stirling kit wing in 1/72 next to the wing of Trumpeter's 1/32 P-47. Trumpeter isn't exactly known for its subtle surface detail, but the rather exaggerated surface detail in 1/32 of the fighter is still more restrained than the surface detail of this bomber in 1/72. 3) One of the odder things about the kit, I've been finding out, is that, there is a discrepancy between the accuracy of the pattern of the panels on the outside and the interior ribs. On the front, the outside panels are reasonably accurate but the interior doesn't match up and is plain wrong. On the rear fuselage things are reversed: the outside panels bears little resemblance to what it should be while the interior detail is accurate-ish. In the early spring of 2017 I started Italeri's Mk.1 kit with the intention of building W7442. I started with an attempt to erase all existing surface detail and rescribing it. It was a nightmare. After almost a month of filling, sanding, priming, (repeating this cycle over and over again) the old details still began to reappear while with all my sanding I had started to seriously damage the wing parts. And actually my finger nails too. In frustration, I discarded the kit and started another project. But something kept nagging and a few weeks ago I re-started it. Because I had damaged the wings in my attempts to create a blank canvass I had bought another kit. This felt like rewarding bad behavior, because now I have 2 kits that are not really worth the money. But now I did have a new set of wings and another whole box of spare parts, in case I mess up, which I will. This time I've started with the fuselage (I'll worry about what to do about the surface detail later). I really wanted to open the model's bomb bay. Italeri's kit part is rather basic: Because it's rather basic, I bought Eduard's detail set. Although I'm generally quite pleased with Eduard PE with this set they really phoned it in. They only provide the frames, but none of the ribs that run along the length of the walls and the ceilings of the bomb bays. So, in my first attempt at the bomb bay I glued a total of 588 individually cut strips of styrene in between the frames: The thing was that none of the 588 pieces was exactly straight. So I bit the bullet and used the bomb bay of the second kit and started over. And I also bought a second Eduard bomb bay set (rewarding mediocrity again). This time, I glued strips of styrene along the walls and planned to make cuts where the frames would go. Already it was looking much better since at least the ribs were straight. During this process I figured out that unlike Italeri's bomb bay with its 27 compartments and Eduard with its 28 compartments - the Stirling's bomb bay compartments are actually irregularly sized. And there are 30 compartments. Eduard provides you with a template, which is pretty useless if you want an accurate representation of the Stirling's bomb bay: From observing James Harris' brilliant work on his 3d model (see here: http://stirlingproject.co.uk/stirling-cutaway/ ) I figured out that the spacing of the frames was irregular. I contacted James and he was kind enough to send me some documentation which allowed me to figure out the what the correct spacing was. Through this I also found out that Italeri's bomb bay is too long - there should be a diagonal 'cut off' at the front end. This should be where the steps are down to the bombardier position, but Italeri's are much too far forward. Since most of the bombardier position will be invisible I won't try to fix the other side, just what's visible from the bomb bay. There are, in fact, not 26 (Italeri), not 27 (Eduard), but 29 frames visible with the bomb bay doors open. And they are irregularly spaced. I ended up recovering 2 frames from the first Eduard set to the 27 of the new set to get the right amount. Although they're a little over scale I used the back ends of some spare machine guns to create the junction boxes that connect the bomb carriers: And I scratch built the 7 lay shafts (consisting of these 3 rods of styrene each) with the arms that are the bomb bay door actuators: I have the feeling that Eduard's bomb carriers are slightly too big. I ended up making 18 bomb positions (rather than 21) because of their size. For making 18 I also used parts from both sets. Finally, I added wiring to the bomb bay as well as I could with lead and copper wire. A nice coat of primer a little bit later and this is what I have: I build slow, but more updates will follow in the next few weeks and months as now finally I hope this thing will progress. Thanks for looking and of course, any comments or feedback is appreciated. - Elger 31 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billn53 Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Amazing research, your attention to detail is something to aspire to. Great job so far, keep it up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveyGair Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Wow, excellent work! I don't think I would have the patience to detail the bomb bay and would just have the doors closed! Davey. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pipthepilot Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 That must have taken a lot of patience with all those PE ribs, really good work and a great subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinChipmunkfan Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Amazingly detailed work Elger, I look forward to the rest of the build, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsairfoxfouruncle Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 1 hour ago, elger said: (I'll worry about what to do about the surface detail later). As for surface detail instead of sanding to remove everything. I would try perfect plastic putty, milliput, or another filler and cover the entire wing in a thin layer. Sand down until just the original detail is filled(repeat process until everything is smooth). Then scribe all the new panels and rivet according to correct plans. That should get you what you want. If you sand the plastic as you did the first time, the plastic eventually erodes and gets too thin. I believe thats what happened with your first attempt. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Courageous Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Bombers are not normally my thing but I thought I'd take a peek. That bomb bay looks both awesome and mental, better you than me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12jaguar Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 What can I say Elger, you're certainly doing the old girl some justice . I'm glad that James and ourselves in the Project have been of use to you, I wish I had your patience in 1/72, doing it in 1/1 is bad enough. Cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ossington 2 Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Have you tried trench filling with superglue and talc? Run a bead a few inches long then spoon the talc on. Sand as soon as it dries, don't wait until morning, otherwise it will be harder than the plastic and you will sand shallow hollows in. Bicarb works too, but I think talc is slightly softer (and smells nicer). Micro balloons will feel yuckie under your fingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrlx Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Impressive work on the bomb bay, Elger! Will be following this build, as I'd be interested in building one of these kits. Cheers Jaime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony C Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 (edited) Looks good to my eye. Also got one in the stash along with all the White Ensign PE detail sets, which though designed for the Airfix kit, I’m hoping some if not most, will be useable on the Italeri version! Edited June 3, 2018 by Tony C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azgaron Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 Some pretty amazing detail and excellent work! Håkan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elger Posted June 4, 2018 Author Share Posted June 4, 2018 Thanks for all the reactions! Actually for the surface of the model I've been thinking about using the technique shown in this thread: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 A fantastic start! I nearly got one of these kits yesterday but opted against it because of it's issues. I'll be watching with interest to see how you get on for tips! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elger Posted June 17, 2018 Author Share Posted June 17, 2018 Here's a quick update with some photos taken with my iphone. I've been adding detail to the fuselage interior. Also a lot of correcting of the Italeri kit. I moved the bulkhead of the wireless operator forward a little bit so that there's room for a chair. I got rid of the details on the bulkhead of the navigator and replaced it with photo etch from WEM. Since I have two kits, I used the second warm air hose to have it be in a slightly more correct configuration. The platform for the glycol tank is from WEM. It's not entirely accurate, but better than having the glycol tank on the floor. The pilot seats are from Eduard but I added seat cushions. There are sink holes everywhere that I filed. A mix of Eduard and WEM photoetch on the fuselage side. The strip with the lighting holes is from the sides of the pilot seats from the WEM sets. Will still be adding wires. Also made some changes to the configuration of the tail. The curtain from the kit was moved forward and where it was supposed to go I inserted a slightly modified frame from WEM intended for the Airfix kit - the part was too wide but I trimmed it and glued it to sheet styrene and then fitted it into place. I'm closing off the side of the tail wheel bay, where the ailerons are. Thanks for looking and thanks for all the interest so far! 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elger Posted June 24, 2018 Author Share Posted June 24, 2018 Finished installing all the interior parts and the interior will be painted next. WEM and Eduard photo etch, and added electrical wiring. Above the same treatment for the navigator's station. Notice the locations of various mold markings that I filled. I'm adding some extra detail to the front turret: ammo belts from spare PE. I'd forgotten to mention that the floor in the rear fuselage was also adjusted; early Stirlings certainly had floor boards with the wood running lengthwise; I also needed to make room for the hatch as well as extend the bomb bay a little further aft. Thanks for looking and as always, any comments or feedback is appreciated. 16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azgaron Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 Beautiful work with the interior! Håkan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbudde Posted June 24, 2018 Share Posted June 24, 2018 Wow, that looks great so far. I'm in here for that one. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 That's a great painstaking job that you are doing. I looked at the bomb bay and decided closed was good! A couple of points that I would make from Italeri builds 1. An effective method of filling the panel lines is stretched sprue. I did this on the Sunderland, which is far worse than the Stirling. I found putty or Mr Surfacer ends up with 'pillows' which look worse than the trenches. 2. In fact you may wish to spray some camo on one of your spare Stirling wings - you may find it's not as bad as you fear. Look at my Stirling build for a general idea. The photography in Simon's 2017 build really emphasises the panel lines but they don't look as bad in real life. 3. Given the tiny openings to view it, interior detail aft is not going to be seen. Never mind, you know it's there! great work - I shall follow with interest! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elger Posted June 27, 2018 Author Share Posted June 27, 2018 6 hours ago, Ed Russell said: That's a great painstaking job that you are doing. I looked at the bomb bay and decided closed was good! A couple of points that I would make from Italeri builds 1. An effective method of filling the panel lines is stretched sprue. I did this on the Sunderland, which is far worse than the Stirling. I found putty or Mr Surfacer ends up with 'pillows' which look worse than the trenches. 2. In fact you may wish to spray some camo on one of your spare Stirling wings - you may find it's not as bad as you fear. Look at my Stirling build for a general idea. The photography in Simon's 2017 build really emphasises the panel lines but they don't look as bad in real life. 3. Given the tiny openings to view it, interior detail aft is not going to be seen. Never mind, you know it's there! great work - I shall follow with interest! Thanks. Yes, regarding point 3 I've noticed today that the side windows are actually particularly blurry and distort any view of the interior. Oh well. I will beat it this time! No stopping me now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 You are right about the obscure view but it's not only the windows. Many of the pictures in my build have been Botophucketed but i have rescued a couple of the view through the doorway.... However the cockpit and turret detail will be seen so that's worth doing. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elger Posted July 7, 2018 Author Share Posted July 7, 2018 (edited) Today I finished the interior. Little of it can be seen, but I had fun putting it together and painting it. The interior green is Humbrol 120 per @12jaguar's suggestion in another thread. It was nice to work with Humbrol again for a change, made me all nostalgic I bought 2 sets of an Eduard masking set so that I could mask the small windows from the inside too. From front to back the main additions to the Italeri kit are: Extra detail added to front turret - including ammo belts (will be adding resin barrels later) Some detail added to bombardier position from WEM set Cockpit interior enhanced with WEM, Eduard, a Yahu instruments panel, and scratch built details (mainly wires) The glycol tank is on a platform The warm air pipe has been altered The bulkhead of the w/o operator has been moved forward A chair for the w/o operator has been added Another window has been added to the top surface; for this I used the access door from the second kit I have Bomb bay has been completely rebuilt, as described in the first post The bomb bay has been extended with a stepped floor The rear of the aircraft's floor has been modified to early mk 1 specification, including the hatch Flares and flare chutes have been added The curtain has been moved forward one frame so that it's actually in front of the Elsan toilet An alternative bulkhead as added from a modified WEM part Eduard PE in the rear gear bay. I had made the new rear lower fuselage hatch by using a bit of clear plastic from a CD cover and gluing the detail from one of the top hatches from the second kit onto it - the lower escape hatch of these early Stirlings was just about (if not exactly) the same size as one of the top escape hatches that's included in the kit. I masked the clear part of the window according to the measurements of the real thing. I added some highlights to the base interior colours and added shading with a mix of 50% future, 50% water, and a little black acrylic paint mixed into it. Anything outside of the cockpit will not be visible - including the W/O position. One thing I will say for the Italeri kit, the main components fit quite well. Next I will either start on the wings or start covering the fuselage with Scotch tape. Thanks for looking! Edited July 7, 2018 by elger 17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelling minion Posted July 7, 2018 Share Posted July 7, 2018 This is truly awesome work. Your attention to detail is outstanding and I really like how you have made the items you need to correct/update the kit. Very interested to see how you get on with the Scotch tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12jaguar Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 Nice update Elgar. That 120 looks a lot lighter than I recall, perhaps I could suggest 'dirtying' it up a bit, although it does help to make things much easier to see detail though the glazing. Excellent work down the back end as well, it looks sufficiently busy down there cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elger Posted July 21, 2018 Author Share Posted July 21, 2018 Fuselage joined together and primed white. I've started the first phase of my resurfacing attempt - indicating in pencil where the panels should be. Italeri has the horizontal lines - sort of but not quite - correct but I'm leaving those mostly as they are. I'm using the kit's rivets as a guide as well, so I won't claim that it's 100% accurate but certainly a better approximation of the pattern than Italeri's suggestion. - Elger 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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