What if WW2 never happened?

[Procopius]

5 hours ago, Tripod said:

Would you need to prevent WW1? If the ongoing German reparations after WW1 had been reduced for good behaviour, replaced by an earlier-generation equivalent of Marshall Aid, or even just eased after the post-crash depression, maybe the German people wouldn't have turned in such numbers to someone offering them a different way out.

The post-WWI Germans didn't need Marshall aid, as the war left their own country almost totally untouched while they pillaged their way through Europe, 

 

What people seem to rarely realize is that the German generals who planned on removing Hitler were only nice guys by comparison. The intent of the July Bomb Plotters, for example, was to get Hitler out of the way and negotiate a peace where they could retain as much of Poland as possible and continue to treat the Poles as slaves, von Stauffenberg among them. Hitler did not create the attitudes of the German people by sheer force of will.

 

The monarchist Johannes Popitz, one of the plotters executed after July 20, had been willing to replace Hitler with Himmler, and remarked "...my view of the Jewish question was that the Jews ought to disappear from the life of the state and the economy. However, as far as the methods were concerned, I repeatedly advocated a somewhat more gradual approach, particularly in light of diplomatic considerations...The Jewish question had to be dealt with, their removal from state and economy was unavoidable. But the use of force which led to the destruction of property, to arbitrary arrests and to the destruction of life could not be reconciled with law and morality, and, in addition, seemed to me to have dangerous implications for people's attitudes to property and human life. At the same time, I saw in the treatment of the Jewish Question a great danger of increasing international hostility to Germany and its regime”. 

[Rob G]

8 hours ago, Procopius said:

the German generals who planned on removing Hitler were only nice guys by comparison.

 

^ This.

[Rob G]

10 hours ago, Richard E said:

At what point in the twentieth century did the British Empire stop viewing France as a potential military opponent ?

 

TBH, I'm not sure that they ever have, at least in some circles.

[Devilfish]

On ‎6‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 12:19 AM, Rob G said:

For WW2 to not happen, you'd have to do a lot more than just go back and remove Mr Hitler. National Socialism grew out of Germany's domestic discontent with the way WW1 ended and the demands from the victors; if Hitler hadn't done it, someone else would have, to a greater or lesser degree. You'd need to stop WW1, which means going back to before that started, and then removing the causes of that, which were all the treaties made by the politicians and diplomats of the time, the same treaties that led inexorably to war when Ferdinand was assassinated. No treaties, no war. (In and of itself, the death of Ferdinand wasn't a real reason to go to war- he was a minor and somewhat embarrassing para-royal, and not worth rattling a sabre over, let alone actually marching an army for. His death did, however, give certain people an excuse to invade, which tripped those treaties and led to WW1.) Most likely there would still have been a war, but a much more local and shorter one- working out who'd be on which side WITHOUT those treaties to bind them would be an interesting exercise (one that I'm not equipped to do.)

 

Have a look at Ben Elton's book 'Time and Again' for one possible take on it (although he only stops Ferdinand dying.)

In my scenario, Hitler has implemented most of his reforms to make the country great again. It's just the thought of another war that brings about his removal.  After that event, the new government come to the League of nations and hash out a new scheme for reparations that is fairer to Germany, and so prevent the rise of another Hitler. 

This scenario also makes a lot of assumptions that other crisis areas around the world would sort themselves out.  I'm aware that Japan and China had been at war for several years already, and that Stalin had eyes on Finland and Poland, as well as the dictators in Spain and Italy.

Let's just say that Japan got it's way in China and stopped at that, Stalin took Finland, but left Poland, and Mussolini was "all mouth and no trousers!"

[Procopius]

18 hours ago, Devilfish said:

In my scenario, Hitler has implemented most of his reforms to make the country great again.

What reforms would those be, pray tell.

[Devilfish]

6 hours ago, Procopius said:

What reforms would those be, pray tell.

Work....Building motorways, increasing industrial output (ok, the output was war machinery, but it got people in jobs).  With his removal, and negotiations with the other European countries, these skills could be translated to something more....peaceful.   You know, like they were after WW2 

[PLC1966]

On 6/16/2018 at 3:11 PM, Richard E said:

At what point in the twentieth century did the British Empire stop viewing France as a potential military opponent ?

December 31, 1999.

[Giorgio N]

Some very interesting thoughts on what could have happened here !

If I may add my 2 cents, I agree with the others who have said that Hitler was not the cause of the German interwar military expansion, Hitler was rather the effect !

It is well known that even during the Weimar Republic the German governments started rearming, tests of new weapons were conducted in neutral countries and German armament companies had "offices" in places like Switzerland from where they could continue producing arms. Part of the development of the Luftwaffe was even carried out on Soviet airfields in collaboration with the local authorities.

The generals and the big industrial firms wanted war, this is what they would have got, with or without Hitler.

 

As someone has mentioned Mussolini, I feel that there's a bit of a misunderstanding on Italy's role here... Italy's main interests in those years were to regain territories that had been promised by the Allied in WW1 and not granted (see for example the Fiume incident), assert a strong role in the Mediterranean and have their own overseas empire. Until the invasion of Ethiopia, countries like Britain looked at Italy with no particular hostility and some of Mussolini ideas were quite popular even among British politicians. With the invasion of Ethiopia things changed and this upset Mussolini and most Italians, as they could not understand why countries like Britain and France comdemned something that they had been doing for a century without any problem. Even after these events there were several in Britain who tried to repair the relations with Italy and even after the start of the war there were contacts to try and keep Italy from entering on the German side. Had Mussolini not believed in Hitler's imminent victory, italy would have remained neutral, selling products to Britain and enjoying concessions. And more, had the war not started, Mussolini would have died in his bed, the same way as Franco did.

 

Back on topic though, I like that Defiant a lot ! Had the war not started, it's likely that types like this could have still been in service in 1946. Of course wartime events showed that the concepts behind the Defiant were not that correct, we'll never know if exercises alone could have shown this to the RAF or not.

One other aspect I wonder is if the RAF would have used natural metal as a finish or would have used the more common overall silver finish, but this is me being an annoying nitpicker... 😁

Edited June 22, 2018 by Giorgio N

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Excellent Defiant 👍 ... Quick question on this theme ? Would the British, French, And other continental powers have given up their colonies in Africa and Asia in the 1950’s, 60’s, & 70’s ? Or would they still exist ? Would the colonies have fought  for freedom in  Africa and Asia ? Would wars like korea and Vietnam have happened ? I wonder if and when they might have ? Any thoughts on this angle if WW2 never happened ? 

 

Dennis

Edited June 22, 2018 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[junglierating]

On 6/22/2018 at 9:48 AM, Devilfish said:

Work....Building motorways, increasing industrial output (ok, the output was war machinery, but it got people in jobs).  With his removal, and negotiations with the other European countries, these skills could be translated to something more....peaceful.   You know, like they were after WW2 

Hmm got people jobs eh ...oh yeah and you could get someones elses business as well for free ...yeah Nazi Germany was great unless you were an undesireable ....mike pull this now

[Graham T]

On 6/16/2018 at 3:11 PM, Richard E said:

At what point in the twentieth century did the British Empire stop viewing France as a potential military opponent ?

Thats why the radar stations were mainly positioned on the south coast.  Only the attacking a/c were German, not French as it turned out!  Also interesting to know that right up until the middle 30s, US war-games were centred around the possibility of war with the UK.  That being the only way the US saw of finally ridding themselves of British influence as they STILL felt hemmed in by their former colonial masters (Canada to the north, various UK possessions in the Carribean & Atlantic to the east, similar in the Pacific to the west & not forgetting British Honduras to the south).

[PLC1966]

6 hours ago, Graham T said:

Thats why the radar stations were mainly positioned on the south coast.  Only the attacking a/c were German, not French as it turned out!  Also interesting to know that right up until the middle 30s, US war-games were centred around the possibility of war with the UK.  That being the only way the US saw of finally ridding themselves of British influence as they STILL felt hemmed in by their former colonial masters (Canada to the north, various UK possessions in the Carribean & Atlantic to the east, similar in the Pacific to the west & not forgetting British Honduras to the south).

And in exchange for leand lease, the US cleared out the BoE, took control of large UK companies operating in the US, pushed for the fragmentation of the Empire and pushed a lot of technology transfer.  Such is Real Politik I suppose.

 

However, this thread could get a bit too politicky and agree with junglierating maybe this is ripe for culling.

[junglierating]

11 hours ago, Graham T said:

Thats why the radar stations were mainly positioned on the south coast.  Only the attacking a/c were German, not French as it turned out!  Also interesting to know that right up until the middle 30s, US war-games were centred around the possibility of war with the UK.  That being the only way the US saw of finally ridding themselves of British influence as they STILL felt hemmed in by their former colonial masters (Canada to the north, various UK possessions in the Carribean & Atlantic to the east, similar in the Pacific to the west & not forgetting British Honduras to the south).

Not sure i entirely agree with your comment about radar stations ....perhaps it was to do with protecting the capital ...the radar range certainly would not have been that great at the beginning and im fairly certain there were radar dets as far as norfolk.

But willing to be corrected especially if you have any empirical evidence would be an interesting read

[JohnT]

The USA war gamed War Plan Red through to the start of WW2 more or less which, along with War Plan Orange, provided for war between the US and the British Empire. War plan Orange was a two front war between the USA one the one hand and the Brit's and Japan on the other.  Planning does often make for some strange scenarios, especially when looked at in hindsight.

 

From what I have read I am not sure who the US Admiral King disliked most. The Brit's, the Kreigsmarine or the IJN !  To be fair I think there were parts of the US Army he was not fond of either.

[Procopius]

1 hour ago, JohnT said:

The USA war gamed War Plan Red through to the start of WW2 more or less which, along with War Plan Orange, provided for war between the US and the British Empire. War plan Orange was a two front war between the USA one the one hand and the Brit's and Japan on the other.  Planning does often make for some strange scenarios, especially when looked at in hindsight.

War Plan Orange only postulated war with the British until the Anglo-Japanese split in 1920 (motivated in part by a British desire to avoid antagonizing or entering into a naval arms race with the USA)., which was not very long in the life of the plan, since it was only formalized in 1919 (but had its genesis in much older plans -- but even then, the earliest USN formal planning involving Japan and Britain was from 1902 and envisioned Britain-Japan-America versus France-Russia-Germany, a wholly improbable combination). The USN invested minimal effort in planning for war with Britain except as a fundraising tool.  Notably, all of the pre-WWII Fleet Problems from Fleet Problem IV in 1924 until Fleet Problem XX in 1939 (dealing with an attempted invasion of the Eastern seaboard) focused primarily on fighting an enemy analogous to Japan.

 

 

[Devilfish]

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 8:07 AM, junglierating said:

Hmm got people jobs eh ...oh yeah and you could get someones elses business as well for free ...yeah Nazi Germany was great unless you were an undesireable ....mike pull this now

Wow! Really?  This is why a lot of people I know no longer visit this site!  IT'S A WHAT-IF!!!  Stop taking it so seriously!  Why can't you just accept that I created a scenario where WW2 didn't happen....Who cares about the politics etc behind it....FFS, I give up!

[junglierating]

😐

Edited June 25, 2018 by junglierating

[Morlock]

interesting idea. Without WW2 the USSR and USA would have remained isolated and the USSR in particular would have still been far behind in technology. Germany on the other hand might have still had some jets and other advanced aircraft that Hitler would have put on course before being removed from power. The Germans would have also been preparing for space. I don't believe all of Hitler's ideas would have been shelved. 

 

Does no Hitler also mean no Imperial Japan and Pacific war?

[Artie]

On 6/15/2018 at 6:22 PM, PhoenixII said:

Spain I feel may have had a completely different outcome, as with no reason for the German's to back Franco,

and assuming that Soviet Russia continued supply of arms and aircraft to the Republican cause, there would have been the

chance of the Republicans being the victors. 

Not 100% agree.........assuming the repubñican's victory, Spain would had turned into a soviet republic, as things were turning out as back as 1934. Left sided parties (Popular Front) were trying to impose a "marxist" revolution in Spain, and even manipulated the results of the elections both in april, 1931 and february, 1936, when they felt that weren't going to be the "winners".....the Second Republic period in Spain wasn't, by far, that bucolic, idealized democratic state...

With a soviet republic controlling Gibraltar, who knows what would have happened. Hitler, Mussolinni and Stalin started sending military aid to Spain in 1936....don't think they had the forthcoming european war in mind back then.....

The only chance to keep a neutral Spain would had been restoring the monarchy, General Mola's initial plan when the military uprising took part in july, 1936. We'd probably had saved so many victims, and an open wound that's still bleeding.

 

And back to the original subject of this post, I really like that B.P. Defiant. That colour scheme fits that "peace time" beautiful plane, with a very old concept inherited from WW1...the rear gunner idea, now improved with an enclosed turret and four guns, looks like the ultimate development of a Hawker Hart, a Bristol Fighter, etc...

But the thing here is......were they really thinking about Germany as Britain's main enemy...????? What about France and their bomber force????? We all know that in political terms, today's friendship can turn out into a fierce enmity tomorrow evening....Think about overseas territories, France and Britain competed in certain areas of influence such as maritime commerce.

 

Best regards....

Edited July 29, 2018 by Artie

[SA80A2AR]

nice defiant.  like them when they are shiny.  i've just built a 1/48 airfix version (the NF.1 to be pricise) in a rather boring matt black.  still look nice though.

[Rumblestripe]

On 7/29/2018 at 2:57 AM, Morlock said:

Does no Hitler also mean no Imperial Japan and Pacific war?

Japan was already at war in China (The Second Sino-Japanese War started in 1937) but would they have attacked Pearl Harbour in '41 if there was no war in Europe to occupy the Royal Navy?

 

Interesting thread and nice Defiant.

 

If we assume that there was no European war in 1939, the Royal Navy would have been able to deploy far more resources to deter Japanese aggression in the Far East (in 1939 the RN was still the largest navy in the world) so perhaps there would have been no Pearl Harbour. As the China/Japan conflict had reached a stalemate by late '40/early '41 perhaps there would have been some kind of peace treaty. Perhaps Japan holding Korea and Formosa with China getting back territories lost to the Japanese in '37?

 

So without WW2, where were the next potential areas of conflict? I suspect the fading British Empire would be riven with conflict through the 50's. A War of Independence in India would be my guess, perhaps this might even go nuclear?

[Procopius]

42 minutes ago, Rumblestripe said:

 

So without WW2, where were the next potential areas of conflict? I suspect the fading British Empire would be riven with conflict through the 50's. A War of Independence in India would be my guess, perhaps this might even go nuclear?

Unlikely, as there was broad cross-party support for Indian independence. Churchill was a rare holdout and was considered a crank for it.

[Rumblestripe]

2 minutes ago, Procopius said:

Unlikely, as there was broad cross-party support for Indian independence. Churchill was a rare holdout and was considered a crank for it.

That's in a post-WW2 world. Perhaps a bit fanciful but perhaps the myth of Empire would have persisted in politician's minds without the sharp slap of reality that WW2 delivered? I believe that Ghandi himself initially wanted India to become a "Dominion" like Canada and Australia before full independence? Perhaps he meets a sticky and suspicious end (this is fantasy remember) without his peaceful methods perhaps we see a "War of Independence"?

 

Alternatively, we might have seen huge fleet actions in the Pacific as the UK/USA tried to blockade the Japanese? (I'm just letting my imagination run on this one)

[sinnerboy]

would have saved me a fortune not buying a HKM Lanc as it wouldn't have existed, possibly 🤔 

[Cloudman1961]

On 6/16/2018 at 3:11 PM, Richard E said:

At what point in the twentieth century did the British Empire stop viewing France as a potential military opponent ?

I don’t think it has...

 

A German friend of mine suggests WW2 should have Britain and Germany against France.

 

😉