RNZAF Wingstripes -- any dictums?

[Ryan B.]

USAAF 44th FS P-40s in the Solomons always, after about March '43, seemed to have the diagonal white stripes diagonally athwart the upper and lower wing surfaces (as well as vertical stripes before and aft of the cockpit, and a white-painted tail). So did some of the RNZAF P-40s, but apparently not all. Pics and illustrations from Oct.-Nov. '43, as well as Jan - Feb, '44, depict P-40Ms and -Ns both with and without the wing stripes. They also seem to appear with and without the white US style 'bars' to the national insignia. One possible explanation could be that aircraft inherited from the USAAF came equipped with both wing stripes and national insignia bars which then had the NZ roundel applied over the top, while P-40s shipped directly to the RNZAF lacked both. Does anyone know of any official protocols or instructions for RNZAF P-40s during the Solomons battles (say, march '43 to March '44) or was it all catch as catch can?

[stevehnz]

Have a scout through these pages, they should help but failing that @LDSModeller Alan should be able to cast some pearls of wisdom upon the subject.

Steve.

[LDSModeller]

31 minutes ago, Ryan B. said:

USAAF 44th FS P-40s in the Solomons always, after about March '43, seemed to have the diagonal white stripes diagonally athwart the upper and lower wing surfaces (as well as vertical stripes before and aft of the cockpit, and a white-painted tail). So did some of the RNZAF P-40s, but apparently not all. Pics and illustrations from Oct.-Nov. '43, as well as Jan - Feb, '44, depict P-40Ms and -Ns both with and without the wing stripes. They also seem to appear with and without the white US style 'bars' to the national insignia. One possible explanation could be that aircraft inherited from the USAAF came equipped with both wing stripes and national insignia bars which then had the NZ roundel applied over the top, while P-40s shipped directly to the RNZAF lacked both. Does anyone know of any official protocols or instructions for RNZAF P-40s during the Solomons battles (say, march '43 to March '44) or was it all catch as catch can?

You need to bear in Mind that the RNZAF was attached to the USN in the Pacific

during WWII,

That being said, generally the RNZAF followed US conventions such as stripes and white tails.

I also need to say that the RNZAF flew P40E-1's , P40K's and as mentioned by you M's and N's

The only aircraft "Inherited" were the P40E-1 from the 68thFG/FS in Tonga October 1942, interestingly

the USAAF flew these with RAF serials and RAF camouflage. When RNZAF 15 Squadron took these over,

they actually flew them for some 6 months in US markings before applying the RNZAF Roundel in the Solomon's

These P40E-1's flew up until the P40's were replaced by the Corsairs in 1944

All the K's M's and N's were brand new Lend Lease. On occasion replacement aircraft came from USAAF

reserves.

I will need to search through photos to link here, but there are photos of at least P 40K's en-route to the

Operational areas with Stripes applied in New Zealand (circa July 1943) as per below

 

RNZAF P40K's

 

More later

 

Regards

 

Alan

[Ryan B.]

Thanks, stevehnz, those pics and commentary told me more than I knew before. I think you can see my problem though on the last page of "The Curtiss P-40 in RNZAF Service". The P-40N in the final pic on the page, a/c #54 shows no evidence of an underwing diagonal stripe--though you can see the white of the insignia 'bar'. Just above it, though, one can just see evidence of the wing stripe on a/c #61, although the photos seem contemporaneous. Maybe that's my answer; some did, some didn't.

Thanks, Alan, I didn't know that only the P-40E was shared between the USAAF and the RNZAF. Unfortunately, while I can easily see the vertical fuselage stripes on your proferred pic, I can't discern whether there are any stripes on the wings--though one can certainly see them later on the Wairarapa Wildcat and its squadronmates!

[larumivi1951]

Maybe this will help:

[larumivi1951]

A little more:

[Ryan B.]

Thanks, L...1951, I don't know how I've never seen that shot of #102. Interestingly, the photo shows the wing stripe merging with the forward fuselage stripe, while the illustration shows the lower wing stripe terminating at the landing gear bulge. the photo seems to show a lighter area (zinc chromate?--another can o' worms) behind the cockpit too. I think I'll take my conclusion from the final sentence on "White Theatre Markings", "It would be a mistake to think that those diagonal bands were applied in consistent fashion, for there were, in fact, innumerable small variations."

[LDSModeller]

On 5/29/2018 at 5:44 AM, Ryan B. said:

Thanks, stevehnz, those pics and commentary told me more than I knew before. I think you can see my problem though on the last page of "The Curtiss P-40 in RNZAF Service". The P-40N in the final pic on the page, a/c #54 shows no evidence of an underwing diagonal stripe--though you can see the white of the insignia 'bar'. Just above it, though, one can just see evidence of the wing stripe on a/c #61, although the photos seem contemporaneous. Maybe that's my answer; some did, some didn't.

Thanks, Alan, I didn't know that only the P-40E was shared between the USAAF and the RNZAF. Unfortunately, while I can easily see the vertical fuselage stripes on your proferred pic, I can't discern whether there are any stripes on the wings--though one can certainly see them later on the Wairarapa Wildcat and its squadronmates!

Hi Ryan,

 

Bear in mind everything you read in books, magazines etc may not necessarily be true or factual, referring to the

above posted diagram

The Drawing refers to NZ3072 which indecently is Geoff Fisken's "Wairarapa Wildcat" it did not wear 072 on the cowl

lower but rather  "19" as this photo link attests to, the drawing has incorrect Roundels and stripes

NZ3072

 

Other issues are the comment about use of Grey Codes, overseas RNZAF Pacific based aircraft wore "Sky" codes.

The above article certainly is correct in the use of SU's (Serving Units) which "owned" the aircraft, and "loaned" them to

the operational squadrons.

The Introduction of the Stripes/White tails certainly was for Identification purposes, Bryan Cox (author of "Too Young to Die")

flew RNZAF P40's in the Pacific, and lamented that on more than one occasion RNZAF aircraft were on the receiving end of

a hail of bullets from our erst while Allies who mistook the identity.

The issue of SU's will also (hopefully) answer your query about the variation of stripes especially lower. Each SU maintained its own aircraft,

decisions on "Theatre" markings came down to the SU CO, so some will apply the lower some won't, but you will find all (later P40's) will have

the upper stripes

In my above post and yours after it, you mention sharing of the P40E-1's . The USAAF 68t PG/FS in Tonga flew the P40E-1's since receiving them

at least early 1942, and as I commented one that I have seen a photo of still wore it's RAF Serial, but with US Star. October 1942 these P40E-1's

were handed over to RNZAF 15 Squadron, who flew and fought with them at Guadalcanal/Solomon's. As I mentioned earlier, these

flew with the US Star for some 6 months before receiving the RNZAF Roundel as in this photo here (now with RNZAF 16 Squadron)

Of note is NO Stripe

P40E-1 Circa April/May or later 1943

RNZAF P40E-1 Solomon Is

 

 

NZ3094 (P40E-1) incidentally is also the aircraft I mentioned earlier with USAAF 68PG Tonga with RAF Serial

NZ3094

 

The P40E-1 were not the only "Camouflaged" P40's flown by the RNZAF, early delivery P40K's were also camouflaged,

arriving in RAF TLS Camouflage and repainted prior to departure to the Islands in RNZAF Pacific Scheme - you commented

on not seeing the upper wing stripe in this photo, but at another angle you can just make it out (second aircraft from bottom lower)

RNZAF P40K's

 

In this photo link from Pete Mossong's site, P40K (camouflaged) you can just discern the stripe port wing, but certainly

can see it on Starboard Stabilizer lower  left

RNZAF P40K repair

 

You can't see a lower wing stripe on the K's (LHS), but you can see it on the M's (RHS)

RNZAF P40K and M's

 

Finally N Model

 

You can see the Stripe lower wing in this photo

 

 

But not on these

P40N Esma Lee

 

4SU P40N's

P40N

 

This probably doen't answer you wholly but, but if you need more info, I can contact my buddy at the RNZAF Museum?

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

 

[Ryan B.]

Wow! Thank you, H.R. Pufnstuf ("Can't do a little, cuz he can't do enough"). That really does answer all my questions (except what's aircraft "A" above carrying in lieu of a center line drop tank?) It's certainly the most my little brain can hold. I appreciate the remarkable amount of work you put in helping to answer my question.

[LDSModeller]

8 hours ago, Ryan B. said:

Wow! Thank you, H.R. Pufnstuf ("Can't do a little, cuz he can't do enough"). That really does answer all my questions (except what's aircraft "A" above carrying in lieu of a center line drop tank?) It's certainly the most my little brain can hold. I appreciate the remarkable amount of work you put in helping to answer my question.

Hi Ryan,

 

Happy to help.

 

The "Object" under the P 40 above, I believe is either a life raft/supply canister, there was some discussion earlier

this year on an RNZAF Forum about it. It's too short to be a 450lb Depth Charge, which the RNZAF became quite

proficient at using.

 

Thought you might be interested in this NZ Archives clip, has a number of RNZAF Aircraft especially 40N's which has some good

shots of wing strips. Of Note the Dauntless's are SBD-5's of 25 Squadron, TBF-1C's are of either 30 or 31 Squadron.

 

 

NZ Archives RNZAF Clip

 

Another clip - just get past the tennis ball and Die casting first - some great clips of RNZAF P40 E-1's.K's and N's

 

1943 Film clip

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

Edited May 31, 2018 by LDSModeller
additional film clip

[Ryan B.]

Thanks! In the first nifty clip (new to me) I saw P-40Ns both with and without upper wing stripes and none with lower wing stripes. Marvelous footage too, but awful martial music!

[Anthony in NZ]

I spoke to an Airframe fitter once who helped spray the white stripes on up in Santo.  'Pretty rough'  he said, they used either tape or strips of paper soaked in fuel to stick on the airframe.  They quickly and tried to keep the spraygun fairly tight sprayed the stripes and pulled off the masking.  You will note in some pics the overspray making it appear to have a dark edge to it.  The use of fuel made it worse he said as it nicely cleaned the paint underneath.....

 

Anyway a little snippet I thought was interesting and possibly useful/less

 

Cheers

Anthony

[LDSModeller]

30 minutes ago, Anthony in NZ said:

I spoke to an Airframe fitter once who helped spray the white stripes on up in Santo.  'Pretty rough'  he said, they used either tape or strips of paper soaked in fuel to stick on the airframe.  They quickly and tried to keep the spraygun fairly tight sprayed the stripes and pulled off the masking.  You will note in some pics the overspray making it appear to have a dark edge to it.  The use of fuel made it worse he said as it nicely cleaned the paint underneath.....

 

Anyway a little snippet I thought was interesting and possibly useful/less

 

Cheers

Anthony

Hi Anthony,

 

Great to hear from you  - awesome snippet of information - thanks for posting it.

 

Interestingly as am FYI for modellers, the "Apparent Dark Edge" has made it onto decal sheets as you well know but as a RED Line

Off Topic, I hope all is well in the South - Temp wise you must now down in single digits? ( we sure have been....)

 

Thanks/regards

 

Alan

[Anthony in NZ]

Hi Alan!

 

Good to hear from you too buddy!  Yes...the dreaded red edge thing!  

 

Yeah its been pretty cold down these parts too.  I have one part of one window frame to paint on my T.7 Auster.  I wanted to do that before it got too cold(its freezing down at the hangar), but winter beat me!  So its back to the modelling, which is great.  

 

Just getting myself back up to speed on the forums to see whats happening

 

Keep warm my friend

Cheers Anthony