Lockheed F-5s in Burma in colour

[occa]

What kind of blue is this ?

It does not look like MAP PRU Blue or ?

 

 

 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Hello @occa ... Its called Synthetic haze blue. It was applied at the factory by Lockheed. It was very stringent in how it was applied. It was sprayed in multiple layers from very dark on top to very light on the bottom in some versions. It had some issues with fading badly so they eventually painted the F-4’s and F-5 in olive over grey until they fixed it. The 2nd attempt worked only moderately better and eventually they were painted in PRU BLUE at least in Europe. Hope that helps you a little. @Dana Bell ... Wrote the article im paraphrasing from. He can probably explain it way better than i can. If he doesnt respond i can PM you screen captures of the article. Without his permission i dont feel right posting them here. 

 

Dennis

Edited May 25, 2018 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[Graham Boak]

I think you're right about the Synthetic Haze, but your description (as I understand it) applied to the original Haze finish which had terrible problems, not least that it glowed at altitude.  That's why it was replaced by a simple blue paint called Synthetic Haze, or alternatively by (as you say) PRU Blue.

 

The film is a bit late for the original Haze, or (just to stretch probability) the earlier RAF India PR colour based on ICI's Bosun Blue.

[Troy Smith]

11 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Hello @occa ... Its called Synthetic haze blue. It was applied at the factory by Lockheed. It was very stringent in how it was applied. It was sprayed in multiple layers from very dark on top to very light on the bottom in some versions. It had some issues with fading badly so they eventually painted the F-4’s and F-5 in olive over grey until they fixed it. The 2nd attempt worked only moderately better and eventually they were painted in PRU BLUE at least in Europe. Hope that helps you a little. @Dana Bell ... Wrote the article im paraphrasing from. He can probably explain it way better than i can. If he doesnt respond i can PM you screen captures of the article. Without his permission i dont feel right posting them here. 

 

Dennis

If search up "haze paint" there is an article online, I know I have posted links to it before @occa you posted an inquiry on synthetic haze paint on F-7. Liberators which has info on this, still not worked pasting links but it 29 April 2017.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

 

I think you're right about the Synthetic Haze, but your description (as I understand it) applied to the original Haze finish which had terrible problems, not least that it glowed at altitude.  That's why it was replaced by a simple blue paint called Synthetic Haze, or alternatively by (as you say) PRU Blue.

 

Thanks Graham ... like i said in my O/P i was paraphrasing from memory. Thats why i flagged it for Dana bell as well. I went back and edited it to add some as well. 

 

Dennis

[72modeler]

Does anybody know why the ground crewman is kicking the nose gear tire in the video? The P-38 didn't have a steerable nose wheel, IIRC, but do not remember if it was a full castoring type, or could turn a few degrees either side of dead center and be brought back to neutral by the shimmy damper. Kinda looks like the ground crewman was kicking it back to center, but I could be (and often are!) wrong. Just curious. BTW- great video; thanks for sharing it with us! Looks like PRU blue to me-I also agree with CFFU and Graham on their assessment.

Mike

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

25 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

 

Does anybody know why the ground crewman is kicking the nose gear tire in the video?

 

Hi mike if memory serves the P-38 had limited steering. Im guessing by the looks of the ground. It was soft and grassy and its possible the tire got jammed with this material and wouldn't roll properly ? It is my guess the crewman saw this from off camera and signaled the pilot to stop. He then runs up to the nose to kick the debris away and when he backs off the pilot knows hes clear to move? Thats what it looks like to me. Though there is a  Second possibility being this airframe had known issues (some planes have gremlins) that hadn't been addressed before the mission. The crewman knew this and was waiting off camera to run in if the nose wheel acted up ? What i find strange is the two crewman buttoning up the cockpit ? Maybe they were explaining about the nose wheel issues.

 

Dennis

[mhaselden]

46 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

Does anybody know why the ground crewman is kicking the nose gear tire in the video?

 

Perhaps it had been a naughty aeroplane?

[pat d]

I do not think it is synthetic haze possibly PRU Blue or another local sourced color. There was a color difference in the two paints applied for synthetic haze. This A/C looks a bit too uniform in overall color. Synthetic haze had a application where the shadow areas were counter shaded with the lighter color.  it is definitely NOT the original Cabot Haze. Here are a couple of synthetic haze photos. GREAT Video! Thanks! BTW take a look at the "kludged" on ADF football on the top of the rear nacelle toward the end of the video @ 2:22...

 

 

 

 

..

Edited May 25, 2018 by pat d

[occa]

My thoughts too were that it certainly cannot be the original Haze Paint as it is much too uniform and smooth.

Maybe it's an Indian supplied version of PRU blue even if looks significantly deeper than MAP PRU blue for my eyes.

 

Thanks corsair for the idea to ask Dana Bell, and thanks Troy for the reminder you posted about it already.

[72modeler]

5 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Hi mike if memory serves the P-38 had limited steering. Im guessing by the looks of the ground. It was soft and grassy and its possible the tire got jammed with this material and wouldn't roll properly ? It is my guess the crewman saw this from off camera and signaled the pilot to stop. He then runs up to the nose to kick the debris away and when he backs off the pilot knows hes clear to move? Thats what it looks like to me. Though there is a  Second possibility being this airframe had known issues (some planes have gremlins) that hadn't been addressed before the mission. The crewman knew this and was waiting off camera to run in if the nose wheel acted up ? What i find strange is the two crewman buttoning up the cockpit ? Maybe they were explaining about the nose wheel issues.

 

Dennis

Hadn't thought of that- you could be right!

Mike

[occa]

Hmm I am having blasphemous thoughts, could it be Deep Sky Blue ?

[Graham Boak]

Blaspheme away - I thought that too.  Or even Dark Mediterranean Blue?  There are three big "buts" in response to both suggestions.

1. They were never common colours even earlier in the war

2. Why should the US be using any British paints at this stage, in this theatre?

3. Is the colour reproduction in this film really reliable?

 

I still think that the likeliest, if we can rely upon the reproduction or even if we can't, is the darker Synthetic Haze.  Yes this was intended to be used, and can be seen in other photos, with a lighter component underneath, but was this always the case? 

 

For a modeller who accepts the colour reproduction, then by all means use Deep Sky Blue to represent this, whatever it actually was.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Blaspheme away - I thought that too.  Or even Dark Mediterranean Blue?  There are three big "buts" in response to both suggestions.

1. They were never common colours even earlier in the war

2. Why should the US be using any British paints at this stage, in this theatre?

3. Is the colour reproduction in this film really reliable?

 

I still think that the likeliest, if we can rely upon the reproduction or even if we can't, is the darker Synthetic Haze.  Yes this was intended to be used, and can be seen in other photos, with a lighter component underneath, but was this always the case? 

 

For a modeller who accepts the colour reproduction, then by all means use Deep Sky Blue to represent this, whatever it actually was.

I agree with your last paragraph Graham. Synthetic Haze Faded horribly from what I've read. So much so that the modeler could use any number of darker blues to give it a mottled and faded look and make it look right. 

 

Dennis 

[pat d]

Graham may have something-once a plane was re-painted / touched up in the field it probably could not approach a factory paint application. Synthetic haze did not weather as badly a Cabot haze but here is a view of a synthetic haze F-5 with a good view of the upper surfaces showing the base darker synthetic haze paint -not too much of the lighter shade used for counter shading the flanks and unders visible. If you look closely you can just see the counter shading on the nacelle and boom in the shadow of the wings and some on the flanks. The uppers should be straight darker synthetic haze. Granted it is a color photo and all cautions apply. But it is useful to compare the colour  tones?

BTW: the two synthetic haze coloutrs were: the base paint was a deep sky tone  called "Sky Base Blue" The lighter tone was  mixed from "Flight White" a  synthetic haze enamel tinted to a colour named "Flight Blue" which was applied in shadow areas and lighter coats on the flanks.

BTW #2 Xtracolor makes one of the synthetic haze color but I cannot remember which one....

 

 

 

 

[Graham Boak]

X160 FS15190.   It looks rather pale on the tin lid in the photo.

[noelh]

It would make a fine and colourful subject. 

On the subject of the nosewheel. I thoink the crew chief kicking it to make it turn because it was trying to run straight on the soft ground. Note the angle of the leg. It would be damaged if the pilot persisted in trying to turn. I think it was a pilot error by trying to turn too soon after moving. That only happens at slow speeds. Once moving it's less of an issue. Another problem with castoring wheels is that you have to make sure you've straightened them on shutdown or you'll lurch right or left on initial taxy, to the accompaniment of coarse laughter from onlookers. Worse on softer ground it might slide putting a sideways strain on the leg.

 

Generally taildraggers are better on austere and soft airfields.

The nosewheel can dig in easily on softer ground as I found out once in a C182 when I taxyed off a narrow runway onto very soft ground as I tried to turn around. The nosewheel started sinking as I desperately tried to recover the situation. The wheel locked sideways and continued to dig a hole. Eventually I had to call for rescue from the ground crew. Boy did they have fun with that, most embarrassing.🤡

Edited May 26, 2018 by noelh

[occa]

Here in this screenshot it appears as if the uppersides were in PRU Blue and the lower sides (with a high demarcation) were in Deep Sky Blue

 

 

But ... the same effect appears on the undercarriage doors which does rather contradict my nice theory.

So it highly likely was Synthetic Haze Paint indeed.