First to Fight (2x1/72 Arma Hobby Fokker E.V)

[Stew Dapple]

I rather like the idea of a two-colour camouflage on the undersides, and those two colours are quite attractive in their own way. I wonder if they were any use as camouflage though?

 

Good progress anyway mate, and thanks for the tips 

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

[Brandy]

Glad the paints worked out for you. Those wings look great! I don't think the E.Vs had the Fokker streaking found on the Dr.Is, although I stand to be corrected, but the wings were brush painted which gave them a streaked look in the colours you have used.

 

Ian

[Procopius]

1 hour ago, limeypilot said:

Those wings look great! I don't think the E.Vs had the Fokker streaking found on the Dr.Is, although I stand to be corrected, but the wings were brush painted which gave them a streaked look in the colours you have used.

 

No, I'm certain you're right; I'm far from an expert on WWI aircraft, and a little knowledge can be more dangerous than total ignorance. 

[Roger Holden]

8 hours ago, Procopius said:

 

So the Germans, in their indefinite wisdom, used a strange undersurface pattern of turquoise and mauve which was as striking as it was absurd. I only have two photos of Stec's "001" in the Windsock E/V/D.VIII book, and neither clearly shows the pattern on the underside of the wing. Arma has an excellent blog with information on all of their kits, and it has an article on the E.V wing specifically, but unfortunately, the photos of Stec's wing underside are failing to load for me. So none of this would be a concern, but when I laid down the mauve, I was looking at the painting guide for a WWI-era German machine, in the foolish assumption that they would use the same camo pattern. Of course in those far-off days of artisanal aircraft production, there's no such guarantee. So I mostly want to see the photos to see how much wiggle room I have, or if I need to do a repaint.  (Incidentally, the real deal would likely have had the infamous Fokker streaking effect as seen on, for example, Werner Voss's DrI, but I'm not really up to replicating that with the airbrush, so here we are, faute de mieux. ) 

 

20180528_212104 by Edward IX, on Flickr

 

 

The wing lower surface was thinly covered with blue and purple stains applied using brushes or brooms. So the effect is that of streaky colours thinly applied over the plywood.  Not the dense and obviously sprayed look you have. The best way to replicate this on a model is to paint the wing a plywood colour and then overpaint streakily with oil paints applied by brush (or acrylics if you are that way inclined).

 

"Fokker used an olive-coloured dope for struts, cowls, and metal panels,"   Dope is a coating for fabric surfaces because of its shrinking properties. The metal parts were painted with enamel.

 

" the Windsock book suggests that the internal tubing was "usually" left in natural metal."     Definitely no natural metal.....was steel tube, so thoroughly primed and top coated. The latter was usually either green or medium grey.

[Procopius]

6 minutes ago, Roger Holden said:

"Fokker used an olive-coloured dope for struts, cowls, and metal panels,"   Dope is a coating for fabric surfaces because of its shrinking properties. The metal parts were painted with enamel.

 

" the Windsock book suggests that the internal tubing was "usually" left in natural metal."     Definitely no natural metal.....was steel tube, so thoroughly primed and top coated. The latter was usually either green or medium grey.

Thanks, Roger. I was quoting the Windsock book on the dope (they specifically mentioned those parts), so it's disappointing to find that pretty much my only resource on the aircraft is leading me astray on the technical terms. Fortunately I have both Fokker olive and the Fokker grey in my quiver.

 

8 minutes ago, Roger Holden said:

 

 

The wing lower surface was thinly covered with blue and purple stains applied using brushes or brooms. So the effect is that of streaky colours thinly applied over the plywood.  Not the dense and obviously sprayed look you have. The best way to replicate this on a model is to paint the wing a plywood colour and then overpaint streakily with oil paints applied by brush (or acrylics if you are that way inclined).

I don't disagree, and more power to the elbow of anyone who cares to attempt it. If my two small children were miraculously transported to Zanzibar, I think I'd try it myself. The wings in any case will need to be repainted, so I'll investigate what can be done without losing too much of my limited modelling time.

[Roger Holden]

5 minutes ago, Procopius said:

Thanks, Roger. I was quoting the Windsock book on the dope (they specifically mentioned those parts), so it's disappointing to find that pretty much my only resource on the aircraft is leading me astray on the technical terms. 

 

 

The Windsock Datafile on that particular aircraft is distinctly dated. IIRC, it says the wing was painted olive green, which was the conventional wisdom 20 years ago.  Unfortunately Mr. Rimell never got around to updating it, as he did with many other of the German types. The plan in the book is also less accurate than Arma's kit in several respects.

[Procopius]

Just now, Roger Holden said:

The Windsock Datafile on that particular aircraft is distinctly dated. IIRC, it says the wing was painted olive green, which was the conventional wisdom 20 years ago.  Unfortunately Mr. Rimell never got around to updating it, as he did with many other of the German types. The plan in the book is also less accurate than Arma's kit in several respects.

Good to know. Is there a more recent publication I could benefit from referring to?

[Roger Holden]

2 minutes ago, Procopius said:

Good to know. Is there a more recent publication I could benefit from referring to?

Not that I'm aware of.  But a Google search for 'TVAL Fokker DVIII' will bring up a lot of very useful photos of their highly-accurate reproductions (er......apart from the wing which they painted the olive green colour in defiance of the latest research).

 

Also, Google 'Fokker EV Wing streaking' which will bring up lots of stuff like this:

  https://forum.ww1aircraftmodels.com/index.php?topic=2389.0;topicseen 

[CedB]

Good job on the painting Winnie... even if Dad is going to change it  

Nice progress PC... and now we have three Fokkers? (Resist the joke, resist the joke...)

[Procopius]

18 minutes ago, CedB said:

Nice progress PC... and now we have three Fokkers? (Resist the joke, resist the joke...)

We do indeed, Buffers! Getting the wing colours figured out aside, it looks like they should be rather pleasant builds. 

[Cookenbacher]

Learning lots already on this one PC, and glad Winston has had his first airbrush lesson.

[Gene K]

I'm loving this thread!!!

 

Gene K

[Killingholme]

Looking forward to seeing these kits getting built. Although judging by the relative size of that well travelled 5p piece, I'm not sure I could manage one myself!

 

P.S. Big up for The National. Along with The Shins, Bill Callahan, Neutral Milk Hotel, Arcade Fire, Silver Jews, Pavement, Decemberists, Modest Mouse, ... their early albums sound like they were released yesterday, not 20+ years ago. I wish I had aged as well!

Edited May 29, 2018 by Killingholme

[Procopius]

So, for the wings, my options as I see them are as follows:

 

1. Leave them as-is. This is super easy to do. CON: This is wrong, not only in terms of not following the paint scheme as shown in the camo guide, but also in how the paint should look over the wings. Though I am prepared to employ high-caliber sophistry to defend this choice should I opt for it.

 

2. Total repaint. This is a huge pain in the butt. I'll have to either strip the wing, which has never, ever gone well for me, or paint over the MisterKit, which has infamously poor adhesion. Then to do it right, I'll have to paint a wood scheme, probably using an acrylic base, then oils to create the wood grain effect, then clear orange or yellow to seal it in, and THEN I'll have to paint over it using maybe a fan brush or try to do very fine lines with my .2 airbrush needle for the streak effect. CON: This sounds about as much fun as taking a water rocket to the plums. Also it will take a very long time to do.

 

3. Some middle ground solution that creates streaks without involving a lot of work that eludes me at the moment.

 

4. A fourth thing hitherto unthought of by me that you, in your brilliance, have considered.

 

Just now, Killingholme said:

 

P.S. Big up for The National. Along with The Shins, Bill Callahan, Neutral Milk Hotel, Arcade Fire, Silver Jews, Pavement, Decemberists, Modest Mouse, ... their early albums sound like they were released yesterday, not 20+ years ago. I wish I had aged as well!

Not familiar with Bill Callahan or Silver Jews, but you have quite a few of my favourites listed there. 

 

2 minutes ago, Killingholme said:

Looking forward to seeing these kits getting built. Although judging by the relative size of that well travelled 5p piece, I'm not sure I could manage one myself! 

You might be surprised. 

[Thud4444]

Being both lazy and crazy here is what I would do.

 

Your trying to get this look right?

 

 

 

 

I would dry brush the wood color over what you've already done. Use little or no oils for the wood pattern. You can't see the wood grain in the pics where the planes are painted. I'd use the oil only on the unpainted surfaces. Just my 2 cents.

[Killingholme]

36 minutes ago, Procopius said:

So, for the wings, my options as I see them are as follows:

 

3. Some middle ground solution that creates streaks without involving a lot of work that eludes me at the moment.

 

 

Seems sensible. Just adjust the two colours you've used to gain a bit of contrast, and then use a coarse paint bursh or even a kitchen synthetic sponge to 'streak' it across the base colour. Takes longer to describe than it would to achieve.

 

 

[Procopius]

All right you devils, fine. 

 

2018-05-29_10-30-12 by Edward IX, on Flickr

 

I sanded down one wing with 4000 and 8000 grit micromesh and sanding sticks, preparatory to Further Adventures.

 

Then I dug out my Hataka Polish Air Force paint set and sprayed the Light Blue-Grey from there. I figured it wouldn't be 100% (the call-out suggests Hataka's Air Superiority Blue), but it's a Polish air force underside colour, and...JESUS CHRIST

 

20180529_214707 by Edward IX, on Flickr

 

Is...is that Mountbatten Pink? This Royal Wedding business is really getting out of hand. Seriously, it came out almost mauve, and dried to a very grey colour:

 

20180529_212937 by Edward IX, on Flickr

 

I'm assuming the actual colour should be closer to the niebieski (blue) from the Nobile paint chip chart on p.15 of Polish Fighter Colours 1939-47 Volume I, which is very light, closer to RLM65 to my untrained eye. Oof. More repainting in my future.

 

Anyway, why agonize over trifles? Our lives are but drops of dew and then the sun rises.

 

I dug out some Gunze Aqeuous I'd hoarded to paint Vietnam-era F-4Cs (which languish in my stash with 300+ other kits right now) and mixed them in an unscientific fashion.

 

20180529_215009 by Edward IX, on Flickr

 

Then I sprayed my two other wings with it. One wing I sprayed...I sprayed...I hesitate to even breathe it...unprimered! Oh, the shame of it. But I only have so much time. 

 

20180529_214229 by Edward IX, on Flickr

 

Looks pretty fetching, doesn't it? (It is possibly too dark, but COME ON.) It also enables me to kick the can on figuring out how to paint the streaking (which looks like crap, no wonder the Germans lost the war, they deserved to, with their planes looking like that) for a little while longer. I'm leaning towards the .2 needle in the ol' Badger Krome and trusting to dieu et mon main gauche*, both of whom will undoubtedly disappoint. Man's gotta give his all, though.

 

I also did a little more work on the fuselages, applying the decals for the other Expert kit and spraying the plywood bits for the basic kit. 

 

20180529_222121 by Edward IX, on Flickr

 

*Even if the French is off, I want some kudos for thinking of this weak jape.

[Stew Dapple]

You spray with your left hand? Maybe my French is further off than I ever imagined but as a sinistra myself I'm sure we would have discussed this...

 

I like your rendition of Khaki. The underside colour was a mix of the blue you mention and a colour which if I recall translates as Ash Grey but of course to complicate matters the mix changed in the immediate pre-war period, (again, IIRC but you have the same book I have...)

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

 

 

 

[Procopius]

Just now, Stew Dapple said:

You spray with your left hand? Maybe my French is further off than I ever imagined but as a sinistra myself I'm sure we would have discussed this...

 

Well yes, as a matter of fact. I'm left-handed, Mrs P is left-handed, Winston is left-handed, Grant will be left-handed if he knows what's good for him...

 

Secret rulers of the universe. Lefties unite!

 

2 minutes ago, Stew Dapple said:

I like your rendition of Khaki.

Ah, that's meant to be the wood skin of the wing over which the streaky bits will be applied!

[Stew Dapple]

8 minutes ago, Procopius said:

Secret rulers of the universe. Lefties unite!

 

9 minutes ago, Procopius said:

Ah, that's meant to be the wood skin of the wing over which the streaky bits will be applied!

 It would make a good khaki, anyway  

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

[06/24]

Weirdly Kieran eats left handed but does everything else right handed. I know not why, but at least it gives him a foot(hand) in both camps as it were...

 

i know now nothing of Polish colours but the spray work looks splendid. 

 

Chapeau, mon vieux

[CedB]

Bad luck with the Hataka PC  

The new coats look very smooth to me PC - I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you (on my left hand, so I can still do other stuff with my right hand...)

[Beard]

6 hours ago, Procopius said:

Secret rulers of the universe. Lefties unite! 

The first rule of left-hand club is that we don't talk about how we secretly control the world.

[Beard]

1 hour ago, Beard said:

The first rule of left-hand club is that we don't talk about how we secretly control the world.

Please ignore my previous post. Left-handers don't secretly control the world.

[Killingholme]

13 hours ago, Procopius said:

20180529_222121 by Edward IX, on Flickr

 

 

Spraying top coats without primer? That's the modelling equivalent of going commando because all your kecks are in the wash. Utterly shameful.

 

Out of interest, what is the plan for the etched wheels? They look really nicely etched, but are rarely seen exposed on real aircraft of the period. Are you going to leave them exposed or simulate the linen covers somehow?