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F4U Corsair STGB Chat


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10 hours ago, JackG said:

Speaking of engines, the exhaust pipes that are seen on the underside, are these circular in diameter, and the openings appear oblong because of the angle they have been cut?   Or are the ends oblong a bit too?

The below is from a Goodyear FG-1, so maybe different from the F4U-1D?

 

 corsair_exhaust_stubs.jpg

 

regards,

Jack

Looking at the photo in isolation and without researching further I say those tubes are at most only slightly ovalised but the oblique cut accentuates the effect.

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I definitely think I've lost my mind!  

 

I've started a build thread for three Tamiya 1/72 kits in Jolly Rogers markings.  They will illustrate three slightly different marking schemes over a period of a year.   I've also started a sepearet thread for a Jolly Rogers F4U-4 from the Revell kit.

 

But I was so taken the the included colour scheme in the Revell kit that an extra build has crept into that build thread.

 

But...   and here's the insane bit...   I really fancy doing a Marines F4U-1 in the early greys scheme, to cover off the missing wartime US colour scheme. 

 

And I also want to do a FAA Corsair, 'cos...   well why wouldn't you?!?!?

 

I'm just wondering where to document those last two.  They don't fit naturally into the Jolly Rogers selection box, but then again it seems a bit wasteful having two additional threads for what will be two very similar builds.

 

Definitely lost my mind.  :mental:   It's like the Hellcat STGB all over again.  :lol:  

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27 minutes ago, Enzo Matrix said:

I definitely think I've lost my mind!  

 

I've started a build thread for three Tamiya 1/72 kits in Jolly Rogers markings.  They will illustrate three slightly different marking schemes over a period of a year.   I've also started a sepearet thread for a Jolly Rogers F4U-4 from the Revell kit.

 

But I was so taken the the included colour scheme in the Revell kit that an extra build has crept into that build thread.

 

But...   and here's the insane bit...   I really fancy doing a Marines F4U-1 in the early greys scheme, to cover off the missing wartime US colour scheme. 

 

And I also want to do a FAA Corsair, 'cos...   well why wouldn't you?!?!?

 

I'm just wondering where to document those last two.  They don't fit naturally into the Jolly Rogers selection box, but then again it seems a bit wasteful having two additional threads for what will be two very similar builds.

 

Definitely lost my mind.  :mental:   It's like the Hellcat STGB all over again.  :lol:  

Hmmm... It Zeeems Like You've gone and caught my affliction to Corsairs ? :hmmm:Start another thread or three ? 

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Not sure if this best place to post, but not wanting to hi-jack a build thread, Dana Bell's post #17 gratefully lists the three main colours for FAA Corsairs as built by Vought:

 

-Army Dark Olive Drab duPont 1071-028

-Sea Gray duPont 71-19324

-Sky duPont 71-021

 

Of the three, only Sky have I been able to find a discussion listing possible matches of hobby paints.  These being Humbrol 122 Israeli Light Blue, Mr. Color 314, and Model Master 1722 Duck Egg Blue.   All of which are based on Nick Millman quoting FS35622 as being a good representative match.

 

So what about the two surface colours, any paint brand suggestions?

 

regards,

Jack

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1 hour ago, JackG said:

Army Dark Olive Drab duPont 1071-028

-Sea Gray duPont 71-19324

-Sky duPont 71-021

AFAIK, the use of US colors was for ANA 613 Olive Drab, ANA 603 Sea Gray and ANA 610 Sky.  These are the DuPont names for these.

 

The Sky is like MAP Sky, but slightly lighter and greyer.  Any decent Sky will be close enough. It's not a light blue.

 

As for paint, I'd suggest saying what brand you like or can get, and see what is available. 

I found Vallejo Pastel Green was good for a slightly lighter and greyer Sky BTW

vallejo_model_color_70.885_pastel_green.

 

 

 

 

I have memories of an FS595 'match' for Sea Gray, and then found this

 

Quote

Vought--Olive Drab ANA 613 (FS 34130), Sea Gray ANA 603 (FS 36173)

I have the US Navy chips and a FS595 fandeck if you want me to eyeball the above two? 

 

 

 

 

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Troy, thank you for the above.   I always thought Dupont paints and ANA paints were two separate entities - Dupont were specially made to closely match British paints (MAP), while ANA were stand alone American paints that were considered acceptable though not a perfect match to British requirements?  So you are saying, that at least the above three FAA colours are the same paint,  with the only difference may be that Dupont were lacquer, while ANA are enamels?

 

Thanks for the offer to eyeball the two surface colours ... it would be interesting.

 

regards,

Jack

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23 hours ago, JackG said:

Troy, thank you for the above.   I always thought Dupont paints and ANA paints were two separate entities - Dupont were specially made to closely match British paints (MAP), while ANA were stand alone American paints that were considered acceptable though not a perfect match to British requirements?  So you are saying, that at least the above three FAA colours are the same paint,  with the only difference may be that Dupont were lacquer, while ANA are enamels?

 

Thanks for the offer to eyeball the two surface colours ... it would be interesting.

 

regards,

Jack

OK, As best as i understand it, ANA is a paint specification, which was made by various companies. ANA means Army Navy Aircraft AFAIK.

 

Du-Pont was a paint manufacturer, who were one company, who made paint to the British specification MAP (Ministry of Aircraft Production), before Lend Lease, and I presume also made ANA colors.

 

the type of paint, lacquer vs enamels, should be irrelevant to the paint standard, which were specified colors, sent as a paint chips.

 

re the FS595 quoted for these, Vought--Olive Drab ANA 613 (FS 34130), Sea Gray ANA 603 (FS 36173) on a visual comparison, these are hopeless.  Nowhere near on either. 

 

a quick visual comparison comes up with these.  (sources, Monogram US Navy Colors, with paint chips, and a FS 595 B fandeck)

ANA 603 ~ FS 36118

ANA 613 ~ FS 34086 

 

natural northern light, bit cloudy.  

 

I'm going to stick in a @Dana Bell and @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies  who maybe able expand on this, and correct errors.

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There must be some slight difference between Dupont/Map and ANA, because in past thread topics dealing with the US painting of TSS , it has always been stated Grumman used MAP colours, while Eastern used ANA substitutes?  Anyhow the Vought paint colours (Dupont) quoted by Dana Bell seems to be something new introduced  in one of his books, and only been mentioned once in these forums late last year by Sea hawk,

 post#4 here:

 

Also the way Dana Bell introduced them in the build thread I had linked earlier, it seems they were discovered in name only in describing how the Corsairs were to be painted for the FAA .  Could be it is unknown as to what exactly they looked like.

 

regards,

Jack

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As part of a joint agreement, there were certain US colours that the UK was willing to accept in lieu of their own.  This is where the term "substitutes" comes from.  For example, Dark Olive Drab was an acceptable substitute for Dark Green.  And, I've seen it said, Dark Earth.  (Just as well the Temperate Land Scheme was no longer widely used on US-supplied aircraft.)  The US wished to reduce the number of colours used by their services in the interest of cheap and prolific production.  Just because the British insisted on their own colours did not mean that the US powers that be wanted to see time and effort spent producing them in the US.  So some companies that had stocks of UK-equivalent paint continued to meet their pre-agreed contracts and finished aircraft in near-correct colours, others at some stage changed to using the US substitutes.

 

As a paint manufacturer, Dupont would and did make whatever colours they could, for those people prepared to pay.  When this became the US government rather than (or rather, as well as) the British, then they produced what the customer wanted.  With the manufacturer as the intermediate.  It is worth remembering that Dupont was not the only aircraft paint manufacturer, although it does seem to have been widely used by companies on the East Coast.  I think Boeing, on the West Coast, used Fuller (although I may not have the name quite right).

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1 hour ago, JackG said:

There must be some slight difference between Dupont/Map and ANA, because in past thread topics dealing with the US painting of TSS , it has always been stated Grumman used MAP colours, while Eastern used ANA substitutes? 

EDIT @Graham Boak has posed a succinct 'why' while I was typing.

 

There is a significant difference between MAP and ANA colours.  That is why this is talked about.

 

Du Pont made MAP approved paint was Dark Slate Grey and Extra Dark Sea Grey,  Grumman had these paint as they were building planes for the British pre Lend Lease. These are good matches for the MAP colours. 

 

ANA was Olive Drab and Sea Gray were substitute colors for Lend Lease, which were approved US paints, and were acceptable to the British,  Sea Gray is a lighter than EDSG, and Olive Drab is darker and browner that DSG.

 

MAP Sky and ANA Sky are very close, but, and AFAIK, the US did not use ANA 610 Sky themselves.

 

HTH

 

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Right on, so I did understand correctly that there is a difference between MAP produced paints in the US and ANA. 

 

It seems though it is premature to ask which hobby paints to use, as a decision must be made first on which set of colors is correct for the Corsair.   Little more digging on Corsairs and the Temperate Sea Scheme - three year old thread quotes Dana Bell's book as indicating them to be MAP (Dupont?).  Same thread quotes a Hyperscale discussion that only ANA paints were used except for maybe Brewster built:

 

 

My money is on Dana, but here the uncertainty lies, as he has combined American names with Dupont paint numbers.  So here they are again:

- Army Dark Olive Drab duPont 1071-028

- Sea Gray duPont 71-19324

 

I can't find anything more about 71-028.

71-19324 is also associated with the name Extra Dark Sea Gray, so I guess that is the same as seen on the Dupont Colour Chart:

 

DUPONT.jpg&key=d0b813c255142b4f5dba073a8

 

Maybe using a combination from both sets is the way to go - at least the finished model will be partially correct.

 

regards,

Jack

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My own philosophy, Jack, is to try to understand the story behind "the paint job", and to consult as many sources as I can readily find (sample chips, color photos (understanding that they can "lie"), call outs on blueprints, etc) and then choose a paint that "looks right" to me.  That was somewhat easier in the days when you could stand in front of racks of different paints at the hobby shop and actually look at the contents through the glass jar (remembering that they can look rather different when they dry).  Actually the last time or two I tried this, at a real hobby shop, I felt so overwhelmed by choice that I ended up deciding I couldn't deal with it and not buying any!

 

Looking at other relevant builds online can also help a lot, because you might see a particularly pleasing example (there are a few Fleet Air Arm builds that come to mind) and think, "Yes, THAT looks like what I'm shooting for- what paints did that person use?"

 

I'm always a little amused when I read a long discussion about the science and the specs and what the "right" paint for this aircraft at this date is, and then a statement like, "Having determined that I need duPont's (American) attempt at RAF Sky, the best model paint for that is Valleho's RLM 71 'Hellgrun'."  [hypothetical names and numbers, so don't correct me on my RLM paints!]

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I think I'm going with Dupont paint call outs, which essentially are near exact matches to FAA.   It just seems odd that, as can be seen on the colour chart posted, there did exist an Dark Slate Grey Dupont no.71-19323, but the document Dana Bell found, quotes in it's place an Army Dark Olive Drab duPont 1071-028.   Not sure what to pick for this colour - is this ANA 613 disguised with a Dupont number??   Possibly this was an example of the transition from acceptable MAP paints to that of substitute ANA paints, resulting in the use of both in the same paint scheme?

 

regards,

Jack

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I’m aware of two versions of VS-34900, the camouflage and markings drawings for British Corsairs.  The original drawing (which I’ve never seen) was dated April 1943; the first revision (“A” revision) released that October notes that the drawing was “Brought up to date.”  It appears the only differences involved switching from the birdcage canopy to the blown one.  I don’t believe there was a subsequent drawing of FAA camouflage, though I’m sure there was a Goodyear drawing of FAA markings for Glossy Sea Blue Corsair IVs.

 

As I’ve noted earlier, the drawings call out three camouflage colors: Dark Olive Drab duPont 1071-028, Sea Gray duPont 71-19324, and Sky duPont 71-021.  While everything I’ve seen says the FAA Corsairs were camouflaged with paints that matched the cited colors, I must admit that NONE of them were painted with duPont 71-series paints.  This doesn’t matter to modelers directly, but all duPont 71-series paints were lacquers – and all of the FAA-camouflaged Corsairs were painted with enamels.  (The use of enamels also meant that there was no change in colors between fabric and metal surfaces, an issue seen on most US Navy Corsair camouflages.)

 

As noted frequently on this site, in 1938/39 the British Purchasing Commission hired duPont to produce color standards matched to the RAF’s own chips; duPont did OK, but screwed up on several colors.  Most US manufacturing drawings and specs quoted the duPont numbers but added the words “or equivalent.”  This allowed aircraft manufacturers to purchase from a variety of paint producers, as long as the paints matched duPont’s chips.

 

The ANA agreements were a joint effort to limit the number of paints that aircraft manufacturers needed to stock.  The mid-1942 agreements chose the most commonly used color to become the standard, allowing that color to be substituted for an approved list of similar colors.  The agreements never required the substitution of a US paint for one of the British paints on the duPont charts, and it appears several of the British colors continued to be purchased and applied by US aircraft manufacturers until fairly late in the war.  The ANA color chips released in May 1943 were based on the selected ANA standards, and were reasonable matches.

 

Standardization was particularly important for the Corsair since major subassemblies were being built at subcontractors around the country.  Outer wing panels, vertical and horizontal stabilizers, and rudders and elevators needed to match the paints being applied by Vought and Brewster - and photos suggest there was a fairly high degree of consistency.  (Note that the demarcation lines needed to align too!)

The standard FAA colors in 1943/44 would have been Dark Slate Grey, Extra Dark Sea Grey, and Sky.

 

So, the Corsairs’ colors themselves:

 

Dark Slate Gray – Prior to the ANA agreements, Vought had applied this color (based on duPont 71-19323) to Chesapeakes.  By the time Corsairs were in production, the ANA agreements had allowed the substitution of Dark Olive Drab (duPont 1071-028) – here I suspect the “1071" prefix reflect the fact that the AAF lacquer was specially formulated to reduce the infra-red signature.  Vought was particularly good about confirming any revisions to color schemes or paints, so I do not believe old stocks of Dark Slate Grey were ever expended on Corsairs - and if they were, the outer wings and tails would not have matched the center wing panels or fuselages.

 

Extra Dark Sea Grey – Again, Vought had used this color (71-19324) on Chesapeakes.  In the ANA agreements EDSG was adopted as the standard and renamed Sea Gray.  If Vought had leftover stocks of this paint it would have made no difference, but there’s no evidence that it would have mattered, since both color names referred back to the same duPont number.

 

Sky – I’ve major problems with the origins of the US version of this color, but those issues don’t apply to Corsairs (so we don’t have to go there).  The Vought Chesapeake drawings call for Sky Type “S” Gray 71-021 or equivalent.  (This is the only color on any of the drawing to specify “or equivalent.”)  On the Corsair drawings the color is now Sky 71-021, which had been accepted as an ANA standard.  Note that 71-021 matched neither British Sky or Sky Grey, but at least was a pale green.

 

Anyhow, I hope that something here is helpful - I know there’s a lot more detail than necessary, but I hope the extra clarifies some of the continuing issues.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

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Dana, grateful that you have dropped by and taken time to recount the results of your researches.

 

Remaining decision to make is what did Dark Olive Drab (duPont 1071-028) look like?  Similar to the previous Dark Slate Grey, or was it influenced by Olive Drab - ANA 613 ...

 

regards,

Jack

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Hi Jack,

 

I have to believe that 1071-028 was simply a duPont number for Dark Olive Drab 41.  It couldn't have been related to OD 613, since the Vought drawings were prepared before the existence of 613.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

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Accurate paint colour is a pigment of the imagination.

Two months on an aircraft carrier across the North Atlantic in Sun and rain would start to change the colour long before reaching a squadron. 

Colin 

😁

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Changing the subject slightly, does anyone know how much of the airframe was covered in fabric?

My original thought was that the Corsair was all metal but Tamiya have represented fabric on the outer wings, outer flap, rudder and elevators. Is this correct? 

Thanks Colin 

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Hi Colin,

 

My records only cover the -1 thru -1D versions of the Corsair.  Vought experimented with several alternatively skinned components, but standardized Alclad everywhere except:

 

Ailerons and tabs -- plywood (with fabric-covered plywood on some early aircraft)

 

Rudders and elevators -- fabric-covered aluminum structure

 

Outer panel flap -- aluminum structure and leading edge, fabric skin aft of leading edge.  Lower skins were subsequently  metal covered when rockets were mounted.

 

Wings -- after sections of outer panels were fabric all the way to the outer edges of the wing tips (which matters if you're painting the dopes surfaces a different tone than the aluminum surfaces).  When rockets were mounted, a metal plate covered sections of the fabric skin.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

 

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For sure yes, without a physical colour chip it is impossible to get 100% accuracy.   Speaking for myself, I find it interesting to at least try to get as close as possible.

 

There are quite a few colour photos from the period, but those can be just as impossible to guess at due to colour shifts in the different film types.  I did find one amusing result, by experimenting with a film emulator software and some digital RBG values.  Inputting one of Polaroid settings gave a somewhat near match to those of the photo to the left:

yZKbgRe.jpg

 

Of course, Polaroid did not come into existence until after the war, but the above does give an idea of how film can alter colours, without even considering the effects of filters,  aging, exposures of various kinds,  etc.

 

Anyhow,  thanks for the patience everyone, I know what I'll be doing once it comes time to open the paints...

 

 

regards,

Jack

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My build has halted momentarily as I work out a wing root gap on Tamiya's 72nd F4U. 

 

Have posted a dedicated thread over at the WWII aircraft section, but in case someone missed it and is interested:

 

Judging by responses, we seem to be a small minority with this problem. 

 

regards,

Jack

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On 6/7/2020 at 8:22 PM, Enzo Matrix said:

I definitely think I've lost my mind!  

 

I've started a build thread for three Tamiya 1/72 kits in Jolly Rogers markings.  They will illustrate three slightly different marking schemes over a period of a year.   I've also started a sepearet thread for a Jolly Rogers F4U-4 from the Revell kit.

 

But I was so taken the the included colour scheme in the Revell kit that an extra build has crept into that build thread.

 

But...   and here's the insane bit...   I really fancy doing a Marines F4U-1 in the early greys scheme, to cover off the missing wartime US colour scheme. 

 

And I also want to do a FAA Corsair, 'cos...   well why wouldn't you?!?!?

 

I'm just wondering where to document those last two.  They don't fit naturally into the Jolly Rogers selection box, but then again it seems a bit wasteful having two additional threads for what will be two very similar builds.

 

Definitely lost my mind.  :mental:   It's like the Hellcat STGB all over again.  :lol:  

W.W.E.M.D? Ah, no, ignore me :doh:

As for the Hellcat STGB: was quite disappointed that proposal never got the attention I'd hoped it would but such is life.

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1 hour ago, Col. said:

W.W.E.M.D? Ah, no, ignore me :doh:

As for the Hellcat STGB: was quite disappointed that proposal never got the attention I'd hoped it would but such is life.

I wonder if that was because of the anything Grumman build last year ? 

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