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Supermarine Type-545 colours?

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I've never seen reliable reference to the 545 being anything more than a just supersonic, transonic type.

The more dramatic type 553 was designed with Mach 2 in mind, but this was given up straight away.

I think that even Supermarine knew that a powerful Avon in a Swift fuselage wasn't going to achieve those speeds, especially in an era when types such as the 544 were struggling to nudge Mach 1.

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Yes, only planned in 1954. And quite early on, although once the first two prototypes were ordered. Intention was using the RR RB.106 engine to get to Mach 1.7-2 at 60k by 1960. As far as I can make out RAE was unusually enthusiastic but then quickly had reservations. I didn’t see anything saying the notion was formally scrapped. Far more damaging to the 545 program was the wind tunnel testing - that seems to be what underpinned the August 55 decision to cancel the second prototype (later the whole thing).

 

Anyway - it sounds like we’re both saying more or less the same thing! Agree it would have been a pretty rubbish aircraft I suspect. “More power Igor” probably not the solution...!

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On 5/20/2018 at 12:38 AM, Aardvark said:

As for my Supermarine type 545  in reality, if she is flying, it's was a sonic aircraft as MiG-19, Super Mystere B.2 and F-100D Super Sabre. 

No. This aircraft it's something in between a heavy fighter and a light fighter, closer to heavy! Here you see the difference between the MiG-21F, Supermarine 545 and Su-7:

20181201-181620.jpg

But MiG-21F and Su-7 flew four years later. Probably the closest counterparts of the Supermarine 545 will still be the F-100 Super Saber and the experienced Mikoyan I-3U, who became the grandfather of the heavy MiG jet family.

Photo Supermarine 545 with F-100 & I-3U I maked latter.

It can be assumed that the Supermarine  545 would have better horizontal maneuverability than the F-100 and would not suffer the "Saber dance*":

 

B.R.

Serge

 

__________________

* - about "Sabre dance" I read on Russian: https://afirsov.livejournal.com/393132.html

Interesting moment in this article:

"The Americans themselves do not say anything about it - this was noted by the British, who had tested the Saber for four years before adopting it. With the introduction of the ridge, as the English write, the “pickup” at high speeds was “caught” already at M = 0.92. It had to be paid for by increasing the stalling speed from 205 km / h to 230 km / h.

......................

The British, by the way, didn’t bother too much, but just tightly fixed the slats for three-quarters of the way forward, and the gap was “sewn up” with metal."

It's true?

I first hear about such a British update Saber slats ....

 

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On 12/1/2018 at 3:52 PM, Aardvark said:

No. This aircraft it's something in between a heavy fighter and a light fighter, closer to heavy! Here you see the difference between the MiG-21F, Supermarine 545 and Su-7:

20181201-181620.jpg

But MiG-21F and Su-7 flew four years later. Probably the closest counterparts of the Supermarine 545 will still be the F-100 Super Saber and the experienced Mikoyan I-3U, who became the grandfather of the heavy MiG jet family.

Photo Supermarine 545 with F-100 & I-3U I maked latter.

It can be assumed that the Supermarine  545 would have better horizontal maneuverability than the F-100 and would not suffer the "Saber dance*":

 

B.R.

Serge

 

__________________

* - about "Sabre dance" I read on Russian: https://afirsov.livejournal.com/393132.html

Interesting moment in this article:

"The Americans themselves do not say anything about it - this was noted by the British, who had tested the Saber for four years before adopting it. With the introduction of the ridge, as the English write, the “pickup” at high speeds was “caught” already at M = 0.92. It had to be paid for by increasing the stalling speed from 205 km / h to 230 km / h.

......................

The British, by the way, didn’t bother too much, but just tightly fixed the slats for three-quarters of the way forward, and the gap was “sewn up” with metal."

It's true?

I first hear about such a British update Saber slats ....

 

This is wrong. the sabre dance was a noted  F100 problem  (see movie above) and the British did not operate this aircraft.

  As the RAF only had  F86 sabres for a few years as a stop gap   pending delivery of the Hunter,  and the aircraft  were US owned,   it would not have been worth the effort for the RAF to  pay to modify the slats in any way. 

  The  RAF operated both slatted and unslatted versions (6-3 wing) of the F86  which were delivered to them in that configuration.  The ex RAF jets that were passed on to other air forces were modified to  the 6-3 unslatted wings after RAF service and the UK  probably had nothing to do with this decision.

 

Selwyn

Edited by Selwyn

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1 hour ago, Selwyn said:

This is wrong. the sabre dance was a noted  F100 problem  (see movie above) and the British did not operate this aircraft.

  As the RAF only had  F86 sabres for a few years as a stop gap   pending delivery of the Hunter,  and the aircraft  were US owned,   it would not have been worth the effort for the RAF to  pay to modify the slats in any way. 

  The  RAF operated both slatted and unslatted versions (6-3 wing) of the F86  which were delivered to them in that configuration.  The ex RAF jets that were passed on to other air forces were modified to  the 6-3 unslatted wings after RAF service and the UK  probably had nothing to do with this decision.

 

Selwyn

Just a small correction Selwyn, Larry Milberry in 'Canadair Sabre' tels us slightly differently on the 6-3 vs slatted wings on RAF a/c. Just a few late deliveries had 6-3 wings and most 6-3 wings were modified from slatted wings during RAF service, mod action mostly taking place mid 1954 to mid 1955. Some airframes were never updated and in 'The Canadair Sabre in RAF Service', Duncan Curtis details which units retained slatted a/c and gives hull serials. The overriding reason was that mixing slats and 6-3s within squadrons was avoided to reduce low speed handling errors - as already pointed out by another posting earlier on, the stalling speed was raised with 6-3 wings. This was presumably deemed an acceptable situation in order to have the better combat handling at altitude of the 6-3 'Hard Edge' wing. It is true however that those a/c 'retired' from the RAF still retaining the slatted wings did mostly get 6-3 wings eventually with their next 'owners'.

It's another story but in later variants of the Sabre, including the Canadair later versions, slats were re introduced to the l/edges to produce effectively a 6-3 wing with slats.

Cheers Nige

 

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1 hour ago, viscount806x said:

Just a small correction Selwyn, Larry Milberry in 'Canadair Sabre' tels us slightly differently on the 6-3 vs slatted wings on RAF a/c. Just a few late deliveries had 6-3 wings and most 6-3 wings were modified from slatted wings during RAF service, mod action mostly taking place mid 1954 to mid 1955. Some airframes were never updated and in 'The Canadair Sabre in RAF Service', Duncan Curtis details which units retained slatted a/c and gives hull serials. The overriding reason was that mixing slats and 6-3s within squadrons was avoided to reduce low speed handling errors - as already pointed out by another posting earlier on, the stalling speed was raised with 6-3 wings. This was presumably deemed an acceptable situation in order to have the better combat handling at altitude of the 6-3 'Hard Edge' wing. It is true however that those a/c 'retired' from the RAF still retaining the slatted wings did mostly get 6-3 wings eventually with their next 'owners'.

It's another story but in later variants of the Sabre, including the Canadair later versions, slats were re introduced to the l/edges to produce effectively a 6-3 wing with slats.

Cheers Nige

 

I dispute this as  a friend of mine had a  father who spent quite a long time modifying the wings on withdrawn RAF sabres, at  Ringway IIRC?  The withdrawn   F86 were overhauled in the UK, fitted with '6-3' wing modifications and handed back  to the USAF who in turn passed them on to other NATO members, with the majority I understand going to Italy and Yugoslavia.before issue to other nations, I think he said he worked at Faireys at  Ringway,(may be wrong on this.) There was recently a thread here on britmodeller relating to the wing on the RAF museum Sabre which  has 6-3 wings. Some pictures were linked showing the withdrawn aircraft in RAF markings parked somewhere awaiting overhaul and the wing mod to be done.

 see  this  link post 58

Selwyn

Edited by Selwyn

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2 hours ago, Selwyn said:

This is wrong. the sabre dance was a noted  F100 problem  (see movie above) and the British did not operate this aircraft.

Selwyn, You misunderstand! The author (A.Firsov) never claimed that the F-100 was at the service RAF!

He only writes that he read about the dance of Saber (F-86) but could not understand what it is!

As the author of the Russian aviation magazine "Aviation & Cosmonautics", he asked many American authors about this, but no one could explain anything to him.

But he suggests that the F-86 Saber had the same prolemmas as the F-100 Super Saber,  and "Sabre dance" is typical of both aircraft due to the similar aerodynamic configuration when effective stabilizer is down when she is go to aerodynamics shadow from wing

522219_original.jpg

(Flow stall on the wing, "shading" stabilizer)

and free wing slats.

Because when flow stall on the wing maked "shading" stabilizer free wing slats work asynchronous, in take-off regime when speed very low it's many chance to disasters.

3 hours ago, Selwyn said:

it would not have been worth the effort for the RAF to  pay to modify the slats in any way. 

That is, You are not aware of any fixing of slats on RAF F-86 ?!

O.K.!

 

In general, I have a lot of questions to A.Firsov on this topic, but unfortunately I do not have an account in LiveJournal, and A.Firsov not have an account in Britmodeller.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

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The picture is misleading in that  the flow behind an aircraft's wing doesn't look like that - except perhaps in a complete stall which is not what is being described in this thread.  The flow around the wing results in a force lifting the aircraft up - as Newton stated this force has to be balanced by an equal and opposite force forcing the air downwards.  Downwash.   So the flow behind the wing is deflected downwards and misses the tailplane, even low-set ones such as the F-100.  This did cause some problems for the design of the EE Lightning, where even experts at the RAE were not convinced that the low-set tailplane would provide the desired forces.  Hence the research Short SB5 with the EE wing planform was initially flown with a high tailplane, and indeed the P1A had flown successfully with the EE tailplane before the SB5 had demonstrated that there was no problem.

 

The Sabre and the Super Sabre have differing tail positions relative to the wing including dihedral on the Sabre - whatever problems they may or may not have had they could not have shared this one.   The F-100's  best known problem is perhaps the inertia coupling cured by fitting the larger fin.

 

It must be added that I was never an expert in stability and control, nor handling, and there is much more that could be said on the subject.  One example could be the early extending of the Harrier tailplanes so that the tips were in undisturbed air, rather than the flow from the high wing.

 

Once in the stall then a low-set tailplane is desirable,  as this occurs at a high angle of attack (nose up).  This and the rate of sink can place high tailplanes directly into the wake and thus lose all effectiveness.  Witness Trident and BAC 111 prototype crashes.

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7 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

The picture is misleading in that  the flow behind an aircraft's wing doesn't look like that - except perhaps in a complete stall which is not what is being described in this thread.  The flow around the wing results in a force lifting the aircraft up - as Newton stated this force has to be balanced by an equal and opposite force forcing the air downwards.  Downwash.   So the flow behind the wing is deflected downwards and misses the tailplane, even low-set ones such as the F-100.  

Why picture is misleading?

 

All the pictures from the textbooks on aerodynamic  give just the same result when you flow around a wing at critical angles of attack:

ml23.jpg

ml26.jpg

Image_031.gif

here is a picture showing the character of the flow around the wing with slats and flaps as F-86/ F-100 on takeoff / landing:

image020.gif

Here is a picture illustrating the appearance of vortices at low angles of attack:

image011.gif

It is quite obvious that at high angles of attack the whirlwinds will increase! 

At the same time, the swept wing itself is prone to disruption of the flow at its ends, and the larger the angle of attack, the larger the area of flow disruption:

image024_20.gif

Therefore, for me, as for the amateur in aerodynamics, the earlier given map is quite convincing.

7 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

This did cause some problems for the design of the EE Lightning, where even experts at the RAE were not convinced that the low-set tailplane would provide the desired forces.  Hence the research Short SB5 with the EE wing planform was initially flown with a high tailplane, and indeed the P1A had flown successfully with the EE tailplane before the SB5 had demonstrated that there was no problem.

EE Lightning...Short SB5 .... P1A....which of these aircraft had free slats on the wing as F-86/F-100 ???

What kind of English fighters had free slats on the wing? I'm trying to remember and I can't do it! It was either a clean wing like Hunter F.1 and then a tooth like a Hunter F.6, or an aerodynamic partition like a Swift F2 and then a tooth like a Swift F.5.

The Russians played with the wing with a free slat on an experimental MiG-17,

%D0%9E%D0%BF%D1%8B%D1%82%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%

having just capture Saber from Korea shot down by E. Pepelyaev, but they did not return to this theme  until they fell into the hands of the F-5E from Vietnam .. but on it was already managed slats!

Therefore, we are not only talking about the shading of the wing of the stabilizer, but also about the fact that the free slats on the wing also contributed to the appearance of the Saber's dance!

 

7 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Once in the stall then a low-set tailplane is desirable,  as this occurs at a high angle of attack (nose up).  This and the rate of sink can place high tailplanes directly into the wake and thus lose all effectiveness.  Witness Trident and BAC 111 prototype crashes.

Yes, disaster Tu-154 over my city Donetsk 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulkovo_Aviation_Enterprise_Flight_612

when pilots attempting to circumvent the thunderstorm front reached supercritical angles of attack and fell into a flat spin from which the Tu-154 can only be removed by a very experienced pilot because of the stabilizer shading, a clear indication of the lack of such an aerodynamic arrangement.

But these are not fighters, these are passenger planes!

 

B.R.

Serge

 

Edited by Aardvark

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The phrase critical angle of attack means the stall, where the flow separates from the upper surface.  At this point the aircraft is not wobbling about but sinking rapidly.  It maybe wobbling about too, but this is of much less importance to the pilot!

 

These diagrams are meant to represent the flow around the wing, not what is happening behind it.  The photo shows a fully developed stall.

 

The air does not stop to contemplate whether it is meeting a transport plane or a fighter.

 

The basic problem of asymmetric slat deployment in manoeuvering flight has been known since WW2, when this was a problem for Bf109 pilots in combat.  I can't think offhand of an earlier fighter with slats, but if so it would have happened then too.  With a high-set tailplane, the Bf109 will still have retained elevator authority below the stall, and probably after. I

 

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19 hours ago, Selwyn said:

I dispute this as  a friend of mine had a  father who spent quite a long time modifying the wings on withdrawn RAF sabres, at  Ringway IIRC?  The withdrawn   F86 were overhauled in the UK, fitted with '6-3' wing modifications and handed back  to the USAF who in turn passed them on to other NATO members, with the majority I understand going to Italy and Yugoslavia.before issue to other nations, I think he said he worked at Faireys at  Ringway,(may be wrong on this.) There was recently a thread here on britmodeller relating to the wing on the RAF museum Sabre which  has 6-3 wings. Some pictures were linked showing the withdrawn aircraft in RAF markings parked somewhere awaiting overhaul and the wing mod to be done.

 see  this  link post 58

Selwyn

Well, published info can be a minefield but there seems no doubt that many a/c sported 6-3 wings and some a/c remained slatted to the end of their RAF  service, eventually receiving the 6-3 wing after withdrawal and moving on to their next owners. It is true that this was achieved within the UK aircraft industry, which is a bit extra from what I said.

Which bit were you disputing ? You were saying more or less the same as me I thought. 

By the way, the only reason I posted was that I know that there is always the same wing query  from guys who want to do a RAF Sabre, and it's always worthwhile pointing out good references.

Nige

Nige

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50 minutes ago, viscount806x said:

Well, published info can be a minefield but there seems no doubt that many a/c sported 6-3 wings and some a/c remained slatted to the end of their RAF  service, eventually receiving the 6-3 wing after withdrawal and moving on to their next owners. It is true that this was achieved within the UK aircraft industry, which is a bit extra from what I said.

Which bit were you disputing ? You were saying more or less the same as me I thought. 

By the way, the only reason I posted was that I know that there is always the same wing query  from guys who want to do a RAF Sabre, and it's always worthwhile pointing out good references.

Nige

Nige

Nige,

 

what I was disputing was the statement "most 6-3 wings were modified from slatted wings during RAF service" my disagreement was  that this is incorrect the modifications were done after RAF Service.

 

Selwyn

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5 hours ago, Selwyn said:

Nige,

 

what I was disputing was the statement "most 6-3 wings were modified from slatted wings during RAF service" my disagreement was  that this is incorrect the modifications were done after RAF Service.

 

Selwyn

OK, fair comment. It's a bit of a shame that we are hijacking quite an important S545 thread, a rarely discussed design. However, Sabre wings are always an interesting subject although maybe we should have had a separate thread for this. Never mind, I have attempted to quantify what has up to now been a bit of a personal recollections discussion. The numbers below are close but as always probably a bit in error but give us the picture quite well:

Total Sabres supplied to the RAF: 431

Total supplied with 6-3 wings from Canadair: 91

Total converted to 6-3 wings in RAF service: 89

Total delivered and retaining slatted wings in RAF service: 251

Of the total, around 354 made it through to overhaul with one or other of the civilian maintenance organisations. It was planned that any slatted machines would be given the 6-3 wing during this process. This leaves us with around 150 or so which already had the 6-3 wing. Only 91 had them from manufacture so 60 or so already converted slatted to 6-3 a/c were in the final refurb programme and these last were re winged during their RAF service, which was our point of discussion I believe. At the end of the programme, 52 of the 354 were eventually scrapped in the UK leaving 302 to be passed either to Italy or sold to Yugoslavia. All 354 had however had the refurb and 6-3 wing  incorporated (where it wasn't already fitted).

 

In defence of your reaction Selwyn, it may be argued that with over 200 machines needing the 6-3 wing refit (discounting around 73 known write offs in service), your contact aircraft engineer must have genuinely felt that most if not all the ex RAF Sabres came out of service with slatted wings.

 

Happy January 2nd to you all and I hope we all survive the next few awful weeks of retail to make it through to then.

Humbug, Nige

 

 

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10 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

The photo shows a fully developed stall.

Caption photo: "Stream from the wing, at a supercritical angle of attack".

If you watch the video, then the F-100 has just this or close angle of attack.

 

10 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

These diagrams are meant to represent the flow around the wing, not what is happening behind it. 

Having placed these simple diagrams, I wanted to show that when flow past a wing, a disturbed flow is almost always present, and naturally the whirlwind of these disturbances still remains behind the wing.

 

10 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

The air does not stop to contemplate whether it is meeting a transport plane or a fighter.

Absolutely correct, if we see only air, but in the situation we are considering, the fighter has less restrictions on overload (G), greater structural strength standards, a larger range of deflection of the steering surfaces, large moments of inertia of the transport as a heavier body ... therefore, it seems to me that the comparison between the fighter and the transport  is incorrect in this case.

10 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

The basic problem of asymmetric slat deployment in manoeuvering flight has been known since WW2, when this was a problem for Bf109 pilots in combat.

Bf-109 (as and Lavochkin family LaGG-3/La-5/7) it's straight wing. 

F-86/F-100 was swept wings. It's a very big differences in terms of takeoff and landing.

 

By the way, the me-262 with free slats went to both the British, and the Americans, and the Russians ... tested them all..... but for some reason only the Americans began to do the free slats .... what was wrong with the Russians and the British ? 😁

 

And in general, I do not understand what we are arguing about? You do not agree that the type 545 is closer in dimension to the F-100? Or do you not agree with the fact that the wing type 545 would be better on takeoff / landing than the wing F-100?

 

B.R.

Serge

 

P.S.

@Selwyn,

@viscount806x

very interesting discussion!

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