It’s alive! - 1/72nd Airfix Do17E conversion to Do17P Frankendornier

[Heather Kay]

53 minutes ago, Kushan_Farsight said:

May these be of help? 

Hmm. Thank you for finding those. 
 

You know, having seen what folk like @The Baron get up to, I am seriously thinking about making my own masks to paint markings. Some further research into the tech will be worth time spent, then some serious penny saving to invest. 
 

I rather feel this model will get to primer stage, then sit waiting for developments. 

[TheBaron]

5 hours ago, Heather Kay said:

am seriously thinking about making my own masks to paint markings

I honestly haven't looked back since largely abandoning decals Heather.

 

The Silhouette (Portrait) cutter has done everything I've asked of it and more; in combination with Oramask material it's cut down to widths I didn't think possible (<1mm.) plus you have the security of cutting as many duplicate masks as you need.

 

The design software that comes with it is pretty basic but if you upgrade to the 'studio' version it lets you import your designs and typography from other - better -  graphics programs in .svg format.

 

At 1/72 the only things that remain problematic are all those tiny 'no step' and 'warning' triangles and their ilk, or the more elaborate multicoloured unit badges, for which decals are still the most effective solution in terms of quality and speed.

 

When I first bought the cutter I did indeed think 'Damn - this is an expensive single item' (and wondered if I'd naively succumbed to gadgetry) but from the word go, it's become an indispensable part of the studio on every build so far.

 

 

[Martian]

Very much looking the part Heather! As to working, over rated IMHO who needs to eat anyway?

 

Martian 👽

[Andwil]

Today marks the second anniversary of my last day of paid employment, I don’t know how I ever found the time for it.  I also thought that retirement would mean more time for modelling 🧐

 

AW

[CedB]

8 hours ago, TheBaron said:

When I first bought the cutter I did indeed think 'Damn - this is an expensive single item' (and wondered if I'd naively succumbed to gadgetry) but from the word go, it's become an indispensable part of the studio on every build so far.

Seconded! Except for the succumbing to gadgetry, obviously; a man has to have some vices  

 

[Marklo]

I bought a cheap laser engraver from the inter web and have had some success cutting masking tape masks. It’s a neje and cost me about €90 including the duty. I can also cut thin plastic and paper with it and it’s been useful for making seats as well. It takes bmp files and has a 39mm square bed. The silouhette curio looks very nice but it's way too pricey for the likes of me, you could probably justify it for your professional activities. 

 

The lettering on the (WIP and in the wars) Walrus. painted black mask applied, sprayed silver.

 

Insignia masks for a what if project I'm working on.

 

1/48 scale bucket seat cut and folded. Black line is the laser burn.

 

The beast itself

Edited December 17, 2019 by Marklo

[Heather Kay]

10 hours ago, TheBaron said:

I honestly haven't looked back since largely abandoning decals Heather.

Indeed. I think it’s definitely a way forward for me. It won’t be for a while, and I’ll do some proper research in what they are, what they do and how they actually work before I risk any capital on them. There’s also the small problem of making space near the pooter. It’s currently entirely filled with Best Beloved's amateur radio gear. There may have to be an ultimatum so I can reclaim some more of MY desk space! 

16 minutes ago, Marklo said:

you could probably justify it for your professional activities

I have some friends in the railway modelling world who have invested in Silhouette setups a while ago. They have been making parts for wagons and coaches, whole kits for such things in fact, so there’s definitely a use for the machine beyond making masks for my hobby.

8 hours ago, Martian Hale said:

Very much looking the part Heather! As to working, over rated IMHO who needs to eat anyway?

It’s a point fo principle, I’m afraid. One must feed one's corporeal being in order to sustain what passes for life.

7 hours ago, Andwil said:

Today marks the second anniversary of my last day of paid employment, I don’t know how I ever found the time for it.  I also thought that retirement would mean more time for modelling 🧐

It certainly seems to be the way that retirees find themselves busier than ever. My parents are certainly in that boat, and also seem to be thriving. The government, however, seem intent on raising the retirement age so I will never actually reach it. That’ll be a bit annoying, as I’ve paid my dues and have been told I will be entitled to a pension when I reach the required age. Someone is being economical with the truth, methinks.

1 hour ago, CedB said:

Seconded! Except for the succumbing to gadgetry, obviously; a man has to have some vices  

Vices? I have several. Very useful gadgets for holding things still while I hack or bash them about. Oh, not that kind of vice! 

[Terry1954]

8 hours ago, Andwil said:

Today marks the second anniversary of my last day of paid employment, I don’t know how I ever found the time for it.  I also thought that retirement would mean more time for modelling 🧐

 

AW

I finally threw the towel in earlier this year and I can certainly say my modelling time seems to have diminished. However I'm not complaining as life is definitely fun this side of the retirement fence!

 

Terry

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

After a long overdue proper catch-up, Heather (I actually went back to the start), I think it’s safe to say that you are nailing this beast.  Looks really good.  
 

Add me to the masking converts for markings - though my aircraft are all in 1/48 and thus far I have paid other people to do anything more complicated than roundels.  No Silhouette (yet).

[Heather Kay]

1 hour ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

I think it’s safe to say that you are nailing this beast.  Looks really good.

Thank you. Allowing for the inevitable compromises, I'm pleased at how it is turning out. There's enough of the 17P there to make it different to the 17Z, at least.

[Greg Law]

As promised here is the report on the Do17p RS models kit. It arrived this morning. The package had been damaged along the way, but the kit was ok. 

The kit consists of plastic sprues, resin for cockpit parts and photo etch.  The canopies are on clear sprues and look good. Seat belts are included in PE.

First thing I noticed was this is  typical short run style of kit. The fuselage had no locating pins, there was only a small amount of flash. Although one of the undercarriage parts has an incomplete cross bar. Nothing that can't be sorted with a bit of stretched sprue. The undercarriage parts generally look quite fine and care with be needed when constructing them. The cockpit looks quite good for this scale, but there could be some room for a bit of scratch building if you want. I dealt I will. 

Generally the main parts have a noticeable fine texture on them. However,  it is very fine so shouldn't be a problem. The fit of the fuselage parts looks ok. Mine will need

Just a little work to tidy up a tiny bit of flash ,  only very minor though. 

How accurate it is I'm not sure at the moment. 

All in all a good kit for this short run type. I'm happy with it and look forward to building it next year.

[Heather Kay]

Thanks for the report, Greg. It does sound like a typical short run kit. I look forward to seeing what you do with it!

 

We don’t really do Christmas here, mainly because the immediate family is a bit scattered and likes to do their own thing. So, Best Beloved, the cat and I settled down to a spell of severe house tidying. The human element is terrible for accruing clutter and being unable to dispose of stuff that hangs around to no good purpose. The cat helps by sharing his fluff around the place. So, a pile of old rubbish and unwanted cr@p is growing outside the back door. I think it’s a good start to a new decade anyway, but a long, long way to go before I will be properly happy to have decluttered life.

 

Modelling, unsurprisingly, has taken a back seat. Aside from making a new photo diorama base, I have done a short bout of armchair modelling, where I rummaged through my references to decide how I wanted to finish the Dornier.

 

 

The model has, basically, been sitting at the back of my workbench since I last touched it. I added a teardrop base for the DF loop, and I’ve tidied the seams a bit. I keep finding excuses to avoid installing the transparencies, masking same, and getting some primer on the thing. Lack of warmth in the paint shop, and the usual seasonal lethargy, all play their part.

 

 

References. For an Air Force that loved to take photos for propaganda purposes, the poor old Do17P didn’t seem to feature highly for the cameras. The two references that provide the most information are these. I’m basing many of my builds on the profiles in the On Target publication - though some of the information may be a little sub par, as will become apparent. Three Do17Ps have profiles therein: one is too early for my chosen period, one has a complicated camo scheme, and one is reasonably straightforward save it’ll need some custom decal work. Obviously, no self-respecting 1940 nut will be without a copy of The Narrow Margin in their library. Happily, it has one photo of Do17s.

 

 

I can’t find any reference to copyright ownership on this image in The Narrow Margin, but if it does infringe anywhere I’ll happily take it down. I include it here for illustrative and educational purposes, because it shows a whole nest of Do17Ps squirrelled away in a hangar. The squadron codes match the third profile from the On Target book, which is handy. Note the position of the fuselage dividing line between the RLM65 undersides and the RLM70/71 uppers.

 

 

Shared for illustrative and educational reasons, as ever. I will remove if requested.

 

And the profile drawing. Some difference, eh? Also of note is the aircraft letter in this profile is white, where the photo fairly clearly, I think, shows them to be another colour. Compare the national markings white against the letters, and also note the plane in the centre left appears to have the rudders painted in the same colour as the letters. There’s also a shield affair below the cockpit on the nearest aircraft. The only similarities between the profile and the photo seems to be the type of plane and the squadron codes!

 

Considering the lengthy debates about interpreting colours from black and white photos that often appear on BM, I am still going make an educated stab in the dark about things. In my view, a photo trumps a profile every time. Therefore, I am going to make an assumption that the camo in the photos is more correct, and that the aircraft letters are yellow, not white. 
 

In some ways, this makes my choice simpler. The aircraft camo appears to be completely standard for the time, aside from the plane with yellow rudders. The national markings are completely orthodox, as well. I need to seek out suitable decals for the lettering, or make suitable masks to paint them. The cockpit emblem, again, guessing from the photo, may well be a green or red in colour, and I reckon I can make my own decal for that. The only question is whether the aircraft ID letters were repeated, as standard camo and markings imply, under the wings.

 

The yellow rudder thing is intriguing, and would make a nice point of interest if I could identify the aircraft letter, annoyingly hidden in the photo. For photo reconnaissance, I always thought individual aircraft would be sent on the mission. Formation markings, say of the unit leader, wouldn’t really be needed would they? Did the Luftwaffe really send formations of planes on photo missions? Interesting.

 

Right, back to clearing up the house! See you in 2020!
 

 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Heather Kay

[CedB]

Have a good declutter and a happy new year Heather and we'll see you in 2020  

[Heather Kay]

Back atcha, Ced! 
 

I wondered if this interwebs thingy might help with unit markings.

 

http://www.wiki.luftwaffedata.co.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Aufkl.Gr.(F)123_Unit_Emblems

 

It did. There’s a Luftwaffe wiki. Who knew? 🤔 Also, this...

 

https://www.pixpast.com/stock-photo/german-luftwaffe-reconnaissance-aircraft-dornier-do-17-p-aufklarungsgruppe-123-3-staffel-langendiebachgermany-1940-13721.html

 

Do17Ps, showing variations in camo between aircraft in the same squadron, and in colour! 
 

I ought to try and use this internutz search doodah more often. 

 

 

[wekusta]

Heather - Glad you found the LuftwaffeData Wiki, hope that it helps

[Heather Kay]

1 minute ago, wekusta said:

hope that it helps

It does, thank you! I don’t know why I haven’t found it before!
 

Am I to understand you may be involved in the site? 

[wekusta]

Heather, regarding reference photos have a look for "Dornier 17 in Focus" by Chris Goss published by Red Kite. I also believe that he has another Do17 book that will be published in the near future.

 

With regard to the LuftwaffaData.co.uk family of sites - they are mine.

[Heather Kay]

1 minute ago, wekusta said:

With regard to the LuftwaffaData.co.uk family of sites - they are mine.

Definitely bookmarked then!

 

I don’t have the books you mentioned. I am firmly in the camp that believes good reference material is an essential modelling tool. I am torn, however, about purchasing some types of book. The reason is I plan to build only one, or perhaps two, occasionally more depending on how and when they were used during my period of interest, examples of each aeroplane. I can’t really justify spending a lot on a book extensively covering one single type. I try to find publications that give a reasonable overview of many types. This is one of the reasons I haven’t bought any of the Haynes manuals, though I have invested in some of the Warpaint series.

 

I hope that makes sense. 

[wekusta]

Heather,

 

Regarding your comment above, have a look at this link for some photos  - https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/aircrafts-2/dornier_do17/

[Greg Law]

Thanks Heather.  I will do a build thread for you when I get to it. I just need to complete my current projects first. To make matters worse I started an Bf 109E-1 as part of a group build somewhere else. Still I will get this done. My Frog Beaufort got some attention the other day so that is still happening. 

[alt-92]

On 12/29/2019 at 11:07 AM, Heather Kay said:

And the profile drawing. Some difference, eh? Also of note is the aircraft letter in this profile is white, where the photo fairly clearly, I think, shows them to be another colour. Compare the national markings white against the letters, and also note the plane in the centre left appears to have the rudders painted in the same colour as the letters. There’s also a shield affair below the cockpit on the nearest aircraft. The only similarities between the profile and the photo seems to be the type of plane and the squadron codes!

 

There does seem to be a pattern however. The aircraft with yellow letters all look to end with L, whereas the sole white a/c letter does end with H. 

Might be another Staffel differentiator.

[Heather Kay]

6 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

Might be another Staffel differentiator.

Could be. I need to spend some time looking at the way the squadrons were set up to better understand things, I think. The Luftwaffe setup is always confusing to me until I properly concentrate!

[wekusta]

Heather/alt-92,

 

Recce units such as Aufklgr. 123 would have had the following as the last letter of the code

 

1(F)./123 - H Staffel Colour White e.g. 4U+GH

2(F)./123 - K Staffel Colour Red e.g. 4U+GK

3(F)./123 - L Staffel Colour Yellow e.g. 4U+GL

 

However, in some instances the photographic record shows that all characters of the code were black.

[Heather Kay]

Belated thanks, Andy. It’s one of those things I "get" when I sit down and go through it, instead of the usual skim-read I’m prone to.

 

No updates on the FrankenDornier, aside from saying it’s pending warmer weather and some spare time. I didn’t get any modelling done at all over the festive season, and I’ve got an absolute ton of paying work to pile into. It may be a while for any progress. 

[Heather Kay]

It’s time to resurrect this build. I had balked at the transparency stage.

 

 

I don’t find vac-form transparencies all that much fun. I bought a set of Falcon transparencies specifically for this project, partly because they looked better than the kit parts and partly because some key sections of the kit parts were short shot. The potential for Captain Cockup and his Merry Band to pay an expensive visit was always a likelihood, and with only a single copy of each part, well, I was a bit worried. I had to be in just the right frame of mind to tackle this job.

 

. Anyway, I stuck a fresh No10A blade in the trusty Swann Morton, got the optivisor in place, and set to.

 

 

You know, this might just work. While the Falcon vac-forms are pretty expensive, the toolmakers know what they’re doing. The parts fit better than the kit parts in most instances.

 

 

All done, ready for a dip in Klear, and then some fun making masks. 
 

The technique I adopted to cut these things out was as follows. Having separated each glazing component from its friends, I pushed a small blob of blutack into the shell. I used just enough to fill the shape, so the glazed area I was trying to extract was supported by the blutack. With the sharp blade, I very carefully began to score the edges of the frame with light cuts. To make things easier, I cut away from the frame to slice up the surrounding material. This meant I could make shorter cuts to free the glazing part. Once the part was more or less free of the waste material, I began to carefully trim with the sharp blade. Occasional test fitting to the airframe showed if more needed to be trimmed. Finally, I used a 240 grit sanding stick to refine the edges, although this tended to leave ragged material that then required very careful removal with a blade.

 

Anyway, that’s one hard part done. I’ll probably make the masks tomorrow evening. I’ll use the same trick with the blutack to hold the glazing parts while I work.

 

It feels good to get this build moving again. I suppose I should start investigating markings once more.