Seatbelts in WW1 aircraft: when did they come in?

[Seahawk]

As per title, really.  When did they start appearing?  I'm thinking RFC/RNAS usage.  And presumably we are only talking lap-straps?

[Black Knight]

Seat belts usage and type evolved; in 1911 some Bleriot XI had lap belts, some not, the two seat Bleriot had a lap belt for the pilot, none for the observer. The BE2 and such had lap belts for both. The Nieuport 16 had over-shoulder & lap belts. By about early 1915 just about all fighting scout types had 4-point harness, whilst many observer types still only had lap belts and some bomber types only had belts for the pilot

[Paul Thompson]

Bristol Fighters only used broad lap belts until post war, when 4 pointers came in.. The observer also had one. Sopwith Pups and Camels, also lap belts. BE types used as fighters (12 a and b for example) also lap belts. Basically, you can't go by modern reproductions, or oldies that are still going, because they have to have 4 pointers to be legal to fly. Even static museum exhibits can have had inappropriate harness installed at some stage. Your best bet is to study a stack of photos, as in Windsock Datafiles. Usually there will be one or two shots that give the game away, especially where the aircraft has nosed over.

 

Paul.

[Beardie]

Indeed, Wingnuts point out in their instructions for the Camel kits that the majority of Camels had only broad lap belts.

 

We think of it as logical now but, at the time, being upside down and the danger of falling out or being hurt in a crash due to not being correctly tethered inside your machine were not really a consideration of the designers.

[Paul Thompson]

6 hours ago, Beardie said:

Indeed, Wingnuts point out in their instructions for the Camel kits that the majority of Camels had only broad lap belts.

 

We think of it as logical now but, at the time, being upside down and the danger of falling out or being hurt in a crash due to not being correctly tethered inside your machine were not really a consideration of the designers.

Probably more a function of not realising what a good idea ithe extra straps  would be rather than indifference. I have a theory (well, I just thought of it) that shoulder straps came in as a response to people smashing their faces  against the safe end of the guns in what would otherwise have been mild crashes.

[Beardie]

I totally agree with you there. There are many accounts of pilots smashing their faces on the gun butts during forced landings and slight prangs.

[Roger Holden]

On 18/05/2018 at 09:05, Paul Thompson said:

Probably more a function of not realising what a good idea ithe extra straps  would be rather than indifference. I have a theory (well, I just thought of it) that shoulder straps came in as a response to people smashing their faces  against the safe end of the guns in what would otherwise have been mild crashes.

The Americans didn't introduce shoulder straps until mid-1942. Many of their aircraft used telescopic sights (so did some WW1 RFC, eg SE5a), which you had to bend forward to look through, so you couldn't do that with a shoulder harness.  So they

often had thick crash padding on their instrument panels to reduce the common phenomenon of 'instrument face'. 

[Twobad]

As others have said, the RFC mainly used a broad lapstrap. I know that some very late Camels did have the four point Sutton harness fitted prior to the end of the war though.

 

The picture below is of a lapstrap from a BE2. Unfortunately I can't recall where I obtained the picture now so can't attribute the original owner.

 

[Procopius]

On 6/9/2018 at 5:50 PM, Roger Holden said:

The Americans didn't introduce shoulder straps until mid-1942. Many of their aircraft used telescopic sights (so did some WW1 RFC, eg SE5a), which you had to bend forward to look through, so you couldn't do that with a shoulder harness.  So they

often had thick crash padding on their instrument panels to reduce the common phenomenon of 'instrument face'. 

"Siskin nose", as the interwar RAF called it. 

[Artie]

As early as dec, 1913, the spanish "Aeronáutica Militar" Lohner Pfeiflieger biplanes were involved in one of the first air bombing in history, over the moroccan rebels. Those planes were fitted with lapstarps for the pilot, the bomber/observer being bound with a rope around his waist.....he had to peep over the fuselage side to drop the bombs, and the rope kept him from falling from the plane..... The Nieuport VI-M monoplanes deployed at Zeluán aerodrome (spansh Morocco), were fitted with very primitive lap straps.

[Seahawk]

27 minutes ago, Twobad said:

The picture below is of a lapstrap from a BE2. Unfortunately I can't recall where I obtained the picture now so can't attribute the original owner.

 

Absolutely brilliant! In the first instance at least, I was after seatbelt details for a...... B.E.2c!  Many thanks.

[Paul J]

Interesting stuff here. So what about the German side?/ 

As an observation, In the film "Those Magnificent men... There is a scene where one of the pilots is strapping in to his Antoinette. Obviously as it was a modern reproduction on the 1960s it had to be. But in the Edwardian pre Great War era would it have been the same just lap straps or rope??!

[Beardie]

A good question and one that might be worth investigating. I suspect that the Germans came up with the idea of the four point harness earlier than the British. Certainly Wingnut Wings give 4-point harnesses for even the Fokker Eindekker's and, given their attention to detail, I would imagine they have some evidence for this type of harness being fitted.

[Beardie]

A little quick dip into research on the subject gives Oswald Boelcke as having and 'Idflieg (four point) harness' in his Eindekker so I guess the Germans had come up with the more secure form of harness where the Sutton Harness doesn't seem to have appeared until late 1918 and then only in small numbers. The design of German Aircraft of the period actually seems to facilitate the firm mounting of harnesses from quite early on with the tubular steel frames and heavy plywood bulkheads in many of their aircraft types.

[Twobad]

The Fokker Dr.1 had a four point harness I'm fairly sure.

 

There is a picture of Richthofen's aircraft with one of the lap straps hanging over the side. The final hole in the end plate fitted over a central spigot I believe, and when all the straps were in place they were held with an R-clip, or something similar. I've never come across a picture of the whole arrangement to confirm it though. In fact, I'd appreciate it if anyone else can.

 

Edited August 15, 2018 by Twobad

[Pauls9cb]

I dug about a bit when I "improved" for a friend of mine one of those Hachette 1/8 scale Triplanes which he'd got bored with since it was one of those weekly part work projects that ended up costing a small fortune. While my modelling prowess falls far short of many fellow BM members, I'm quite fascinated by detail which was sadly lacking in the OOB contents of this Dr 1. Among the things I spent some time on were the arrangement of the pilot's seat and harness and I came across a few drawings that seem to give appropriate detail to the question of the harness arrangements in both the Dr 1/F 1/DVII from the Fokker stable. I guess it's not impossible that this arrangement was common to many of Anthony Fokker's products and maybe other German types as well. Hopefully the following pics show what I mean.

 

I believe this structure is common to F 1/Dr 1 and D VII with the seatbelt arrangement as below.

 

 

The following diagram shows the dimensions of the seat harness mechanism.

 

 

For my Hachette Dr 1, I manufactured some lead foil straps with scaled buckles and connecting plates as shown in the following pic. There's more pics of the model in an earlier post on BM for this model.

 

 

I hope somebody else out there finds this useful.

Paul

 

[wmcgill]

While quite interesting, the drawings/sketches above are from 1925 and 1991 so are not necessarily exactly right for WW1. 

 

While not as common as the 4 point harness, wide lap/belly belts can also be seen in some late war German fighters (Fokker Dr.I & D.VII), possibly preferred by pilots for the extra upper body/head movement they allowed. 

[Beardie]

That is interesting, I don't think I have ever noticed a photo of a German WWI machine with only lap belts, then again I am not the most observant of fellows. I know that the late Dan San Abbott referred to the 'Idflieg regulation harness' which is the design in the drawings above as the harness that - "I have seen in almost every German fighter, and parts catalogs." so I would guess any fitted with only a lap belt were more than likely to have been pilot specific alterations. 

[wmcgill]

Karl Bolle's Fokker Dr.1 and the famous upturned "Ace of spades" Fokker D.VII are a couple with wide lap/belly/ belts that spring to mind (coincidentally both from Jasta 2) and Shuster's Jasta 17 D.VII (Albatros built) appears to have a British lap/belly belt!

[Beardie]

I will need to see if I can find some pics of those machines. I guess that the four point would have the disadvantage of preventing you from being able to move forward when trying to clear a jam etc. 

 

It must have been a difficult decision to make - Risk not being able to reach your guns properly in order to clear jams etc. which could cost your life in a dogfight or risk smashing your face in the event of a prang.