Best Israeli Kfir?

[Uncle Uncool]

On ‎7‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 11:18 AM, DarrenH said:

Just go buy the 1/48t Kinetic Kfir.

Its better in every aspect than the AMK kit.

Had an AMK Kfir and sold it quite quickly after getting the Kinetic kit.

Uh-huh... Me wholly concurs

Cheers,

 

Unc²

[Shalako]

In 1/72 you should definitely buy the AMK kit. It's the newest mould available in the market. Though, I do not know if you can backdate it into a C.1 or convert it to an F-21 - however, I think the F-21 was actually a C2.

 

As for the ESCI Kfirs and F-21. Well, first of all the supposedly F-21 it's not an F-21!!!! It requires a lot of modifications. The alternative is to combine the conversion set that Isradecals produced several years ago with the ESCI Mirage IIIE.

 

As for the Kinetic kit, I have no idea what its like, though I am tempted to buy one!!

[CT7567]

3 hours ago, Shalako said:

In 1/72 you should definitely buy the AMK kit. It's the newest mould available in the market. Though, I do not know if you can backdate it into a C.1 or convert it to an F-21 - however, I think the F-21 was actually a C2.

 

Actually the F-21s were C.1s, leased to the U.S. Navy & Marines for use as adversary training aircraft after being retired from Israeli service.  The most obvious C.1 feature on the F-21s is the original canards, with a much smaller span and higher leading edge sweep angle than later Kfir variants.

[MiG-Mech]

Really ?

Answering on a 4 years old topic ?

[Shalako]

11 hours ago, CT7567 said:

 

Actually the F-21s were C.1s, leased to the U.S.

Cheers mate. I've read in an Italian magazine that there were C.2s that's why I wrote it. 

[CT7567]

4 hours ago, MiG-Mech said:

Really ?

Answering on a 4 years old topic ?

I wonder how that ranks on the scale of offenses relative to posting a rhetorical question. 🤔

 

On the topic of the original post, there is widespread consensus the 1:72 AMK kit is a far superior tooling to Italeri or Hasegawa, but for several years now the AMK kit seems to have been out of production and virtually impossible to find. Anyone have any insight on current availability?

[Shalako]

17 minutes ago, CT7567 said:

Anyone have any insight on current availability?

There are a few advertised/available on eBay. I recently ordered mine from Spain for 19 euros (without shipping).

[drake122]

2 hours ago, CT7567 said:

I wonder how that ranks on the scale of offenses relative to posting a rhetorical question. 🤔

 

On the topic of the original post, there is widespread consensus the 1:72 AMK kit is a far superior tooling to Italeri or Hasegawa, but for several years now the AMK kit seems to have been out of production and virtually impossible to find. Anyone have any insight on current availability?

Last year, it was possible to order them directly from EU distributor, Annetra in Czech Republic. I am not sure if that is still possible these days. Most shops don't have it in stock anymore.

[TBC]

Actually the F-21’s were not C1’s but rather the upgraded C1 Plus. The C1’s did not have either the nose strakes or the small canards on the intake, both of which were features of the C1 Plus.

[Shalako]

8 hours ago, TBC said:

Actually the F-21’s were not C1’s but rather the upgraded C1 Plus. The C1’s did not have either the nose strakes or the small canards on the intake, both of which were features of the C1 Plus.

From which book have you drawn this assumption, and is it still available? Is it from a book specifically for the Kfir?

[TBC]

6 hours ago, Shalako said:

From which book have you drawn this assumption, and is it still available? Is it from a book specifically for the Kfir?

It's not an assumption! Isradecal Publications-Israel Aircraft Industries Kfir.

[Fukuryu]

On 8/20/2022 at 8:34 PM, TBC said:

Actually the F-21’s were not C1’s but rather the upgraded C1 Plus. The C1’s did not have either the nose strakes or the small canards on the intake, both of which were features of the C1 Plus.

 

According to other source, Amos Dor's "From Mirage to Kfir Part 3 - Israel Aircraft Industries Kfir" the naming goes: Kfir for the initial variant (no strakes, no canard), Kfir Canard (strakes, short span delta canard), Kfir C.2 (strakes, long span canards), with the F-21 being Canards. But it must be taken into account that initial variants were converted to later ones during their operational lives. BTW, I also have Raanan Weiss and Yoav Efrati's book, but somehow Dor's explanation always made sense to me.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Fukuryu

[TBC]

5 hours ago, Fukuryu said:

 

According to other source, Amos Dor's "From Mirage to Kfir Part 3 - Israel Aircraft Industries Kfir" the naming goes: Kfir for the initial variant (no strakes, no canard), Kfir Canard (strakes, short span delta canard), Kfir C.2 (strakes, long span canards), with the F-21 being Canards. But it must be taken into account that initial variants were converted to later ones during their operational lives. BTW, I also have Raanan Weiss and Yoav Efrati's book, but somehow Dor's explanation always made sense to me.

Yup. Confusing. One guy calls a Kfir without canards or nose strakes just a Kfir while the other calls it a C1. When it has nose strakes and tiny canards one says a Kfir Canard and the other says C1 Plus. The good news is that they both seem to be on the same page starting at C2s.

 

Your logic seems sound in what makes sense. Without canards (because there are Kfir photos with nose strakes only) then just a Kfir. With small canards (seems there was always nose strakes too at this point) then a Kfir Canard or a C1. Hey, what do I know? I wasn't there. I just read it in a book.

Edited August 30, 2022 by TBC

[exdraken]

4 hours ago, TBC said:

Yup. Confusing. One guy calls a Kfir without canards or nose strakes just a Kfir while the other calls it a C1. When it has nose strakes and tiny canards one says a Kfir Canard and the other says C1 Plus. The good news is that they both seem to be on the same page starting at C2s.

 

Your logic seems sound in what makes sense. Without canards (because there are Kfir photos with nose strakes only) then just a Kfir. With small canards (seems there was always nose strakes too at this point) then a Kfir Canard or a C1. Hey, what do I know? I wasn't there. I just read it in a book.

the problem could be, that you only introduce a versioning system when you start to have more than one.....  so afterwards...

and than it is always unclear where the version changes started and what changes actually make a version. Those are all gradual changes, that get introduced to tackle a shortcoming, or a planned improvement that needs testing first....

does anyone know what the "C" in C1, C2, etc actually stands for?

we know that C2 evolved into C7 and even C12, and the radar equipped ones are either CE or C10 (or Cheetah for that matter ). There also was a Kfir 2000 ones, no?

what happened in between?

 

thanks!

 

[Fukuryu]

7 hours ago, TBC said:

Hey, what do I know? I wasn't there. I just read it in a book.

You and me both! Is hard to believe that something so recent, with most people and institutions involved still around, is still not 100% clear. WW2 Japanese colours don't look so daunting now... 

[Fukuryu]

3 hours ago, exdraken said:

does anyone know what the "C" in C1, C2, etc actually stands for?

 

99.9% sure is for "Canard".

[f111guru]

On 5/13/2018 at 7:21 PM, eagledocf15 said:

What is the best Kfir in 48th and 72nd? What are the problems with the ESCI or Italeri kits? Is there a 32nd kit coming out and what about The conversions? Thank you

This is the Hasegawa kit built up and is some 30 or more years old. First is black and white taken from a fellow I worked for in the  USAF. He was taking a photography clas

The others are mine from 20 or so years ago placed in a Verlinden foam cast revetment

I do have the ESCI kit along with the mirage, F-100, F-104, F-18, F-8 and some others. All the  ESCI kits have potential with some resin up dates.

All The Best,

Ron VanDerwarker

 

On 5/13/2018 at 7:21 PM, eagledocf15 said:

What is the best Kfir in 48th and 72nd? What are the problems with the ESCI or Italeri kits? Is there a 32nd kit coming out and what about The conversions? Thank you

This is the Hasegawa kit built up and is some 30 or more years old. First is black and white taken from a fellow I worked for in the  USAF. He was taking a photography clas

The others are mine from 20 or so years ago placed in a Verlinden foam cast revetment

I do have the ESCI kit along with the mirage, F-100, F-104, F-18, F-8 and some others. All the  ESCI kits have potential with some resin up dates. This doesn't answer your question but enjoyed building this kit. I've done the F.1 Mirage from hasegawa back then also. Straight forward and no issues that I remember.

All The Best,

Ron VanDerwarker

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by f111guru

[Robertone139]

On 5/31/2018 at 1:20 PM, Jacarre said:

In 1/72 AMK and Hasegawa are - in shape and dimensions - the best Kfirs IMHO. There are some slighty error in shape in the AMK one: Wing profile are a little too shallow in roots and the canopy profile is not the best. I have some doubts of the heigth of the tail fin, too: its smaller than the others (i dont have dimensions).

 

Hasegawa kit have a very good shape and dimensions, but the panel lines are wrong and raised and the detail is not of the level of the AMK kit. The wing chord, span and fuselage dimensions are very good. I have some doubts about the width of the rear fuselage (afterburner area), it's sightly greater than AMK (could be in the rear plane due to the J-79 engine, more short and width.

 

Italeri Kfir and F-21 are the worst of the bunch. Wing chord too short, main landing gear idem, poor main wheels, canopy too "buried" in the fuselage, windscreen too long and shallow (due to the canopy height). Here with my friends of IPMS Chile we measured a disassembled Cheetah E in National Aeronautic Museum, and, despite the differences with the american engined Mirage derivatives, there are great similarities. We determined with this data that the best - in shape and dimensions - 1/72 Atar engined Mirages are the High Planes and PJ ones.

 

Regards.,

Javier

Sorry for replying late to this, but I just overlapped the Italeri and AMK 1/72 Kfir wings and they are just about a perfect match.

Have you ever actually built the kit.

[F1xena]

Seeing as we are talking Kfir, I have a (probably dumb) question. 
Which Israeli Kfirs had the big yellow and black triangular identification markings on the wings and tail? I have the AMK kit (C2/C7) and it lacks these markings….but I really like the look of them and would like them on my model. I have a set of Italeri decals, which include the markings I want, but not sure how incorrect they would be for a the AMK version🤷‍♀️

[Hook]

These markings have been used on the Kfir Brick, C1 and C2 (and Mirage III / Nesher). By the time  the C7 came along, they were no longer in use, and were removed from the earlier versions.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre 

[Giorgio N]

8 minutes ago, F1xena said:

Seeing as we are talking Kfir, I have a (probably dumb) question. 
Which Israeli Kfirs had the big yellow and black triangular identification markings on the wings and tail? I have the AMK kit (C2/C7) and it lacks these markings….but I really like the look of them and would like them on my model. I have a set of Italeri decals, which include the markings I want, but not sure how incorrect they would be for a the AMK version🤷‍♀️

 

The big triangles were used for recognition purpose to avoid confusing Israeli Mirages and Kfirs from the Lybian and other Arab Mirage IIIs. IIRC they disappeared in the early '80s, meaning that they were only carried by the C2 and earlier variant. They were only used on aircraft with the early Kfir camo scheme, with the exception of one single aircraft in the two-grey scheme (tail number 882, included in the latest Italeri issue of their C2).

Since the AMK kit allows to build a C2, you can use the instructions for this variant and then apply the Italeri decals... keeping in mind that they may or not fit, I don't know if the shapes of the two kits correspond, Better check this before dipping the decals in water

 

[F1xena]

Wow, thanks for the quick and comprehensive answer. Just checked and the decals I have are Revell, not Italeri, but I take your point on sizing for the particular kit.

Thanks again😁

[Hook]

6 minutes ago, F1xena said:

I take your point on sizing for the particular kit.

They look better masked and sprayed anyway.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[drake122]

What is interesting to know, I've seen photos of a Kfir C2 in Ecuatorian colors with yellow-black ID triangles, albeit very faded, on the wings. It also had a peculiar 4-color camouflage pattern unlike any other Kfir. Anyone know what's up with that? Some mention it was in the process of being repainted when Cenepa War broke out?

[Hook]

Perhaps she was just repainted and not stripped first, with the triangles showing through when the new paint job deterioated? ? I recall reading about Argentinian ex-IDF/AF Mirages, also repainted in Israel pre-delivery, that when being restored for museum purposes were found to still carry their Israeli kill marks underneath the Argentinian camouflage. 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre