Israeli Spitfire..In General

[Wdedig]

Greetings

Seems like a simple question I can't resolve with my resources.

Did Israeli Spitfires retain the Wing walk and general stencils ?

Thanks

Bill 

[Troy Smith]

This will be a 'it depends' question Bill, by this, the Israeli's got Spitfires from various sources, and they retained the original markings for quite some time,  including stencilling some eventually got repainted in Israel as well.

 

Really, you need to pick and subject and see what is visible.  THE book for this is the White Crow book on the Spitfire in Israeli service BTW,  well worth getting if this is your interest.

 

 

 

[Wdedig]

Thank You Troy

[Wdedig]

This is the Aircraft I need Help on

Thanks

[huvut76g7gbbui7]

Clear photographs from that period seem to be rarer than the proverbial hen's teeth !

The  wing in the foreground is obviously very worn down,even to the extent that the previous operator's roundel is partially exposed.

I'll not even try to say if that's the remnants of the walkway marking.

[Wdedig]

Thanks for the information 

[Troy Smith]

6 hours ago, Scimitar said:

Clear photographs from that period seem to be rarer than the proverbial hen's teeth !

 

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Rev2/1201-1300/Rev1260-whitecrow-Spitfire/00.shtm

Quote

As for images you get:

370 black and white photos, 

 

,  but it's hard to get in the UK, copies are easier to get in the US but the postage tend to be the killer.

 

@Wdedig

I'll have to have look, but I won't be back with book for a couple of days, but I suspect the answer will be RAF standard stencilling, because...

 

  IIRC '14' was one of the fairly early Velvetta Spitfires obtained from  Czechoslovakia,  these were in stand RAF markings apart from the Czechoslovak roundels, being ex-RAF planes supplied to the Czechoslovakia post war, from Czechoslovak RAF squadrons.

Good, memory working, from the link, white 14 was from the first batch if Velvetta Spitfires

http://101squadron.com/101real/spitfires.html

Quote

2004

D-133

White 14

 

Sept. 27

crashed by Finkel, Jan. 4, 1949

 

note that eduard do a Velvetta boxing

https://www.eduard.com/store/aircraft-and-helicopters/1-48/velveta-spitfire-for-israel-1-48.html?lang=1&cur=1

and there is a PDF of the instructions which may have some info.

 

I'll have a look through the book that comes with the Eduard Spitfire set  

Quote

 “Nasi se vraceji” (‘The Boys are Back’), which is a tribute to the Czechoslovak pilots and their Spitfires for their service in the RAF during the World War II.

Although the focus of the series is the return of the Czechoslovak RAF Squadrons to the liberated homeland in August 1945, a chronological selection of markings and the fate of associated personality accompanies war service in the years 1942-1945, the action of Spitfires in the postwar Czechoslovak Air Force, subsequent sale to Israel and then to Burma.

see https://www.eduard.com/nsv/  

Quote

In a very unusual way are addressed the camouflage schemes for the selected 38 planes. This is done in a form of a historical publication, whose author Zdenek Hurt is an expert on the Czechoslovak Spitfires, and on the fate of the Czechoslovak Airmen in England. In the publication, the reader will find information related to the Spitfire Mk.IX selected for the decal options, the fate of associated pilots and historical context. More than 100 photographs in the publication have never been published before.

 

the silver Spitfire in the image posted by @Scimitar  is ex-Italian AF, which was a later supplier.

 

HTH

[Giorgio N]

The same Alex Yofe previously published a book for Ventura Publications of New Zealand, titled "Spitfire, Star of Israel". This is still available from Ventura for a very good price (less than a tenner delivered).

Having this book, I went through all the many pictures and personally I'm not sure I've seen much in terms of stencils. The only piece of original stencilling I managed to identify for sure was the R/T markings under the aileron of one aircraft. This in itself is a sign that original stencils were retained, however I couldn't see any wing walkway in any pictures. When looking at pics of Czech Spitfires in 1946 on the other hand these can be identified. It is likely that some of the stencilling simply faded and nobody bothered repainting them. For sure the Israelis didn't bother eliminating anything except the national markings, as a number of Spitfires featured artwork applied during their Czech service.

Small note on the picture posted above: the roundel visible under the Magen David looks to me as not really showing through, looks more like the Israeli marking was applied smaller than the original one. I wonder if this could be a Yugoslav roundel, as there seems to be a lighter circle around the roundel, consistent with the yellow border used by that Country. Aircrafts delivered during the Velveta missions stopped in Yugoslavia for refuelling and while the authorities didn't bother for Velveta 1 aircrafts, for Velveta 2 they required the Spitfires to wear Yugoslav roundels during the flight (most likely to keep the true destination of the aircrafts hidden and avoid troubles with other countries).

[sloegin57]

2 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

The same Alex Yofe previously published a book for Ventura Publications of New Zealand, titled "Spitfire, Star of Israel". This is still available from Ventura for a very good price (less than a tenner delivered).

 

I can thoroughly recommend that publication having had a copy for the past twenty odd years.  One query.  At the back of the book it states that Part 2 will include "colour chips mixed to original paint samples".

 

Was Part 2 ever published ?

 

Dennis

[Troy Smith]

55 minutes ago, sloegin57 said:

At the back of the book it states that Part 2 will include "colour chips mixed to original paint samples".

Most of the paint was pretty standard,  ie the ex-Czech planes were all in RAF colours, (except for really early on, 48/49)  and when you get to Israeli paint colour values are known.

the only really unknown are the very early bitsa rebuilds.

Bear in mind it's very likely much early Israeli paint was ex-RAF,  they were able to build a couple of Spitfires out of RAF trash, so leftover paint is quite possible.

 

Star Of Israel is good, but the Spitfire Mk. IX in the Israeli Air Force Service 1948-1956 makes it look like brief introduction, more like parts 2, 3 and 4 to be honest.

Certainly from a modellers view point,  I don't think you can beat it.

This does have Humbrol mixes for the Israeli Brown and Blue Grey colours  used very late on in Israeli service.

 

The great shame is it seems White Crow are no longer functioning, I have there 3 books (Spitfire IX, Avia S-199 and B-17 ) and they are some of the best references I own,  as they had planned ...

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Future books from White Crow Publications will include the Avia S-199, B-17, P-51 Mustang, DH Mosquito, Harvard and Piper Cub with the Israeli Air Force.

 

@Wdedig  as you are in the USA,  there are copies of the White Crow on Amazon.com for $29 + $4 shipping.

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0977462706/ref=sr_1_1_olp?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1526297972&sr=1-1&keywords=alex+yofe 

 

cheers

T

[Wdedig]

Greetings

I would like to thank you all for the information provided.

I understand the challenge of a generic question such as the one I posed.I do appreciate the efforts in an accurate and thorough support to the stencil question.

Interesting result is Eduard markings instruction show the aircraft #14 from the Czech republic with the wing walks and the aircraft from Italy without. It is a direction without an actual photo of the particular aircrafts wing.

Best Regards

Bill

 

[Giorgio N]

Bill, the aircrafts received from Italy would have been delivered overall silver finish that these aircrafts had received while in Italian service. In this scheme none of the original RAF stencil was applied so makes sense that, whatever scheme was applied in Israel, the stencils were not reapplied either.

The antiglare panel on the silver Spitfires in Italian service was dark green (likely the same Verde Oliva Scuro 2 used in WW2). I've seen mention of the Israeli aircrafts carrying black antiglare panels, this would mean that at least the panels were repainted. The style used on italian Spitfires was also different from the one seen in most pictures of silver Israeli aircrafts, another point towards a repainting. We should also keep in mind that not all the silver israeli Spitfires were former Italian machines as several ex Czech aircrafts were also repainted this way.