Airfix 1/72 F-86 Sabre - The repairs are almost done - It's a happy ending!

[Terry1954]

1 minute ago, Courageous said:

Hi Terry, as a matter of interest, what AM seat are you using?

Hi Stuart, it's not an AM seat in this build. I am using the kit seat (blob of plastic) and heavily detailing it with card and strip!

 

Terry

[Terry1954]

5 minutes ago, Selwyn said:

Just one problem when on 93 sqn this aircraft sported leading edge slats not the hard 6-3 wing which was fitted after it left RAF service.

Hi Selwyn,

 

Thanks for this. One advantage of being a slow builder is that it gives folks chance to correct things before I make irreversible errors!

 

I am becoming even more aware, with Sabres, as with many/most aircraft, there is a complex variation of builds/mods etc that need very careful research. I'll make sure I choose a finish carefully to correspond to correct wing config.

 

Thanks again

 

Terry

 

 

[Courageous]

Just noticed, our posts crossed in the ether.

 

[Selwyn]

2 minutes ago, Terry1954 said:

Hi Selwyn,

 

Thanks for this. One advantage of being a slow builder is that it gives folks chance to correct things before I make irreversible errors!

 

I am becoming even more aware, with Sabres, as with many/most aircraft, there is a complex variation of builds/mods etc that need very careful research. I'll make sure I choose a finish carefully to correspond to correct wing config.

 

Thanks again

 

Terry

 

 

Terry,

 

Just edited my post with a link

 

Selwyn

[Terry1954]

5 minutes ago, Selwyn said:

Terry,

 

Just edited my post with a link

 

Selwyn

Thanks Selwyn, just seen that. Thats definitely a slatted wing then!

 

An excellent example of museum exhibits needing further investigation, although I guess I could model it as the actual machine in Cosford as it is today! 🤣

 

Cheers

 

Terry

[Scott Hemsley]

Another 'wee' problem with that Sabre F.4.  If you're going to depict it with the leading edge slats, the Sabre Mk.4's as delivered to the RAF all had the earlier narrow-cord, slatted wing.

 

Scott

[TheBaron]

Nice purposeful progress Terry. The pace here is great for getting to understand the kit issues in relation to the actual aircraft.

Crack on! (But not too quickly..) 😁

[Sabrejet]

Apologies for thread hijack but I felt the need to clear up a popular misconception that all Sabre 4s delivered to the RAF had narrow-chord wings on delivery: this isn't correct and in fact a significant number came direct from Canadair with the '6-3' wing already installed. XB995 shown below on delivery (note insignia red conspicuity markings) as example, along with XB916 ('803') in company of a batch of similarly-configured Sabre 4s on delivery.

 

 

 

I can also confirm that XB812/U was retired from RAF service with its narrow-chord wing intact, as seen below:

 

 

Look forward to seeing the finished article - looks good despite the Airfix kit being a bit clunky!

[Sabrejet]

On 16/05/2018 at 22:44, Terry1954 said:

Solution is simple, switch the pylons but the main question is does anyone have any views/information on the fact that the plylons are bent like this on their forward edge?

 

 

 

Just noted this one too: another Airfix "now why did they do that?". The drop tank pylons are symmetrical when viewed from above/below and have no such asymmetrical curvature. This is a view I took a while back which shows (just visible) the ghost of the drop tank fairings on the wing underside: straight as a die and not curved!

 

 

I have to admit I've never bought the Airfix Sabre, but I hadn't realised that a modern kit of the type would have so many daft inaccuracies.

[Selwyn]

On 6/8/2018 at 12:39 AM, Terry1954 said:

Thanks Paul. I looked at some plans and reference photos, and I think you have a point ....... 🤔 I'll look at that next.

 

You are too kind sir! I will of course consider your suggestion of RAF 112 Sqdn with sharkteeth!

 

Thanks folks

 

Terry

Apart from the fact that the RAF has never had a 112th sqn?

 

Its Number 112 Sqn ! (that's One One Two Squadron).  RAF squadrons are never  given this sort of  "th" designation.

 

Selwyn

 

(with his pedantic head on today!)   

[Gene K]

6 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

 The drop tank pylons are symmetrical when viewed from above/below and have no such asymmetrical curvature. 

 

Actually, there were curved-tip pylons. I've taken pictures of those pylons on the F-86 at the Eglin AFB Armament Museum (Ft Walton Beach Florida). Unfortunately, I can't access those pictures right now as they are on an old computer. 😒 I'll try to fire that machine up this weekend.

 

Discussion here , but unfortunately, no pics.

 

Gene K

Edited June 9, 2018 by Gene K

[Sabrejet]

2 hours ago, Gene K said:

 

Actually, there were curved-tip pylons. I've taken pictures of those pylons on the F-86 at the Eglin AFB Armament Museum (Ft Walton Beach Florida). Unfortunately, I can't access those pictures right now as they are on an old computer. 😒 I'll try to fire that machine up this weekend.

 

Discussion here , but unfortunately, no pics.

 

Gene K

Gene is correct, but the pylon with the curved outer, forward surface was not used with the 120-gallon tanks you are modelling (only with the larger 200-gal tanks, which weren't used on RAF Sabres). 120-galls should have the symmetrical pylon as explained above.

 

Edited June 9, 2018 by Sabrejet

[Terry1954]

6 hours ago, Gene K said:

 

Actually, there were curved-tip pylons. I've taken pictures of those pylons on the F-86 at the Eglin AFB Armament Museum (Ft Walton Beach Florida). Unfortunately, I can't access those pictures right now as they are on an old computer. 😒 I'll try to fire that machine up this weekend.

 

Discussion here , but unfortunately, no pics.

 

Gene K

 

4 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

Gene is correct, but the pylon with the curved outer, forward surface was not used with the 120-gallon tanks you are modelling (only with the larger 200-gal tanks, which weren't used on RAF Sabres). 120-galls should have the symmetrical pylon as explained above.

 

Thanks to both Gene and Sabrejet for clarifying this one. I assume Airfix must have had information on the curved version of the pylon and incorrectly applied it to this model with the 120 gallon tank.

 

I would like to see any pictures if you have them Gene, but no worries if not.

 

What a fascinating aircraft!

 

Cheers all for your help and comments.

 

Terry

[Selwyn]

5 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

Gene is correct, but the pylon with the curved outer, forward surface was not used with the 120-gallon tanks you are modelling (only with the larger 200-gal tanks, which weren't used on RAF Sabres). 120-galls should have the symmetrical pylon as explained above.

 

The RAF used only 100gal tanks, but don't worry, 100 imperial gallons =120 US gallons! 🤣

 

Selwyn

 

[Sabrejet]

12 hours ago, Selwyn said:

The RAF used only 100gal tanks, but don't worry, 100 imperial gallons =120 US gallons! 🤣

 

Selwyn

 

True in theory, and indeed the Pilot's Notes etc refer to them as 100 Imp. Gal tanks. However since many of the first RAF Sabre crews had seen USAF exchange service in Korea, they were definitely '120's'. These gents then went on to become instructors, flight commanders and squadron commanders and thus the terminology persisted. Following this, many nascent RAF Sabre pilots went through training in the USA and converted onto the F-86E and F there, thus perpetuating the use of '120'. Ex-Sabre pilots and ground crew I spoke to in later years continued to use the term '120' (though more often just 'drop tank').

 

In the end of course the only time anyone is really interested in tank capacity is when they're empty!

[Azgaron]

Nice work!

 

Håkan

 

[Terry1954]

On 6/9/2018 at 7:55 AM, Sabrejet said:

Apologies for thread hijack but I felt the need to clear up a popular misconception that all Sabre 4s delivered to the RAF had narrow-chord wings on delivery: this isn't correct and in fact a significant number came direct from Canadair with the '6-3' wing already installed. XB995 shown below on delivery (note insignia red conspicuity markings) as example, along with XB916 ('803') in company of a batch of similarly-configured Sabre 4s on delivery.

 

Looking at this one again, I am really fancying NMF with the insignia red conspicuity markings.

 

Thanks again for sharing that.

 

Terry

[rob Lyttle]

2 hours ago, Terry1954 said:

I am really fancying NMF with the insignia red conspicuity markings

Oooooh Yeah!!!🌟🌟🌟

Love to see that!

[Terry1954]

On 6/13/2018 at 12:18 AM, rob Lyttle said:

Oooooh Yeah!!!🌟🌟🌟

Love to see that!

I realised that my On Target Profiles 6 on the NA, Canadair and Commonwealth F-86 contained a good profile set of drawings for the RAF Sabre 4 with NMF and red conspicuity markings, this example being XD781.

 

 

So I'm pretty set on this scheme, although looking at @Sabrejet's picture of XB995 above, I'm not convinced that the red covers the whole tailplane as shown in the above drawing. It looks like the rear section on the photo could be NMF?

 

Also, does anyone have a view on the cockpit colour of these early Mk4's in RAF service? I'm thinking black rather than grey.

 

I've just got the instrument panel to fabricate together with the part of the cockpit behind the seat, below the sliding part attached to the canopy, then I'll be ready to paint the cockpit.

 

 

Suggestions/views welcome!

 

Terry

[Tony Edmundson]

RAF Sabres had a black cockpit, sorry, no pics this time.

 

Tony

[Terry1954]

2 minutes ago, Tony Edmundson said:

RAF Sabres had a black cockpit, sorry, no pics this time.

 

Tony

Thanks Tony, I suspected as much.

 

Terry

[Sabrejet]

Black. I'll post a shot. Also the wing colouring in that profile isn't correct: it should extend inboard and around the roundel. I'll see if I can scan some photos. Makes for a more interesting scheme.

[rob Lyttle]

Who cares about the cockpit with a décor scheme like that!😎

Just kidding.....

 

I see what you mean in the picture of XB995.

What I'm seeing is colour on the fixed tailplane, metal on the elevator, and then you're seeing the port elevator right behind, which gives that strip effect.

Still doesn't really tally with the 3view design, but that's my interpretation.

 

[Terry1954]

9 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

Black. I'll post a shot. Also the wing colouring in that profile isn't correct: it should extend inboard and around the roundel. I'll see if I can scan some photos. Makes for a more interesting scheme.

Appreciate that. I always like photographic evidence where I can get it!

 

3 minutes ago, rob Lyttle said:

What I'm seeing is colour on the fixed tailplane, metal on the elevator, and then you're seeing the port elevator right behind, which gives that strip effect.

Still doesn't really tally with the 3view design, but that's my interpretation.

Yep, thats what I am seeing too.

 

Thanks again both.

 

Terry

[Sabrejet]

Here is a cockpit shot, showing the overall black. This is XB544/H of 147 Sqn shortly after delivery:

 

 

And not the best shot, but showing the wingtip scheme for ferry markings:

 

 

And finally, a bit of an extreme close-up but showing the tailplane of XB544 following an in-flight incident shortly after delivery (document case door flew off in flight and struck the tailplane). Aft section of the all-moving tail in NMF, fwd section insignia red.