Hampden MkII X3115 - undersurface

[Hugh Thomson]

I am going to make a start on the 1/72 Valom Handley Page Hampden MkII - only two MkIIs (prototypes) were apparently constructed, X3115 and L4032. The kit instructions show X3115 as being finished in the standard night bomber colours of the time - dark green and brown upper surface and night black underssurface. But photos of X3115 on the Imperial War Musem site and the Red Kite book on the Hampden seem to show a light coloured under surface which contrasts with the dark of the propellers and propeller spinner. My guess is that this is yellow as this not only seems to be the same shade as the outer ring of the fuselage roundel but would also be consistent with the practice for prototype aircraft at that time.

 

Before I leap in and paint the model on this basis i.e. with a yellow undersurface, does anyone have any comments? In particular does anyone have any information that might confirm the undersurface colour?    

[dogsbody]

From Warpaint No.57.

 

 

 

Chris

[Hugh Thomson]

Thanks. The bigger picture is also in the Red Kite book on Hampden Squadrons - that book claims that it is X3115. Its still my guess that the undersurface is yellow. Any other olour just doesn't seem likely.

 

The smaller photo is a little more uncertain but undersurface at the rear below the tail seems very light coloured.

 

Think I'll stick with yellow. 

[Work In Progress]

I would.

[Seahawk]

There is a nice clear side view of X3115 at Boscombe Down on p.74 of Tim Mason's The Secret Years.  Underside certainly not black and I can't think of a reason for a colour other than yellow.

[Hugh Thomson]

Thanks Seahawk. I must buy a copy of that book. 

 

My understanding is that the work on the MkII was done in 1940.  It must be yellow. That seems logical.

[Seahawk]

2 hours ago, Hugh Thomson said:

 

My understanding is that the work on the MkII was done in 1940. 

Well, according to The Secret Years X3115 was being tested at Boscombe in August 1941 (performance trials) "before use on general purpose armament work until an engine fire in January 1942 curtailed further flying."  From the snow on the ground I'd assume the photo was taken nearer to Jan 42 than Aug 41.  Not that there's any bearing on the undersurface colour.

[RJP]

Dating myself with this reference off my shelf but William Green (Famous Bombers (second series). . . 1960) recorded X3115 as having been with 415 Squadron so it also looks like testing with a squadron?  415 formed at Thorney Island in August 1941 as a torpedo bomber unit.  

 

The dates Green gives, "1940 to the end of 1943" are a bit too broad but the squadron attachment (not to mention their designated role) does open up discussion of the underside colour.

[Seahawk]

1 hour ago, RJP said:

Dating myself with this reference off my shelf but William Green (Famous Bombers (second series). . . 1960) recorded X3115 as having been with 415 Squadron so it also looks like testing with a squadron?  415 formed at Thorney Island in August 1941 as a torpedo bomber unit.  

 

The dates Green gives, "1940 to the end of 1943" are a bit too broad but the squadron attachment (not to mention their designated role) does open up discussion of the underside colour.

The Air-Britain serial listing entry for X3115 runs: "AAEE/Cv TB/415.  Conv Mk.II.  DBR when X3061 blew up, St Eval, 22/6/43".  So it looks as if the trials as a Mk.II predated conversion to torpedo bomber and issue to 415 Sq.  It's tempting to surmise that the conversion to torpedo bomber and (presumably) back to Mk.I configuration took place as part of repairs after the Jan 42 engine fire.  But that's just speculation.

 

The Secret Years says that apparently no report was issued on the handling trials at AAEE which suggest that officialdom had lost interest in the Mark II idea.

[Hugh Thomson]

22 hours ago, Seahawk said:

Well, according to The Secret Years X3115 was being tested at Boscombe in August 1941 (performance trials) "before use on general purpose armament work until an engine fire in January 1942 curtailed further flying."  From the snow on the ground I'd assume the photo was taken nearer to Jan 42 than Aug 41.  Not that there's any bearing on the undersurface colour.

Thanks for this. Much appreciated. Another reason to buy the book.

 

Funy, but I don't think there has ever really been much written about the Hampden - like the Whitley - so knowledge has to be acquired from here and there from monographs to chapters and paragraphs in more general studies.

[Hugh Thomson]

15 hours ago, Seahawk said:

The Air-Britain serial listing entry for X3115 runs: "AAEE/Cv TB/415.  Conv Mk.II.  DBR when X3061 blew up, St Eval, 22/6/43".  So it looks as if the trials as a Mk.II predated conversion to torpedo bomber and issue to 415 Sq.  It's tempting to surmise that the conversion to torpedo bomber and (presumably) back to Mk.I configuration took place as part of repairs after the Jan 42 engine fire.  But that's just speculation.

 

The Secret Years says that apparently no report was issued on the handling trials at AAEE which suggest that officialdom had lost interest in the Mark II idea.

The Red Kite book on 'Hampden Squadrons' says that the idea was that Canadian built Hampdens would use Wright Cyclone engines instead of the Bristol Pegasus but demand for the Cyclone was such that none were available - so presumably the idea came to nothing. 

[Hugh Thomson]

17 hours ago, RJP said:

Dating myself with this reference off my shelf but William Green (Famous Bombers (second series). . . 1960) recorded X3115 as having been with 415 Squadron so it also looks like testing with a squadron?  415 formed at Thorney Island in August 1941 as a torpedo bomber unit.  

 

The dates Green gives, "1940 to the end of 1943" are a bit too broad but the squadron attachment (not to mention their designated role) does open up discussion of the underside colour.

Thanks.

 

My only reference on the subject says that the MkII was converted back to a TBMkI standard and then issued to 415 Squadron.

 

Interesting background. One of the things I like about modelling is researching the subject. Particularly when the subject is a little off the beaten track - like the Hampden.

[canberra kid]

A bigger if truncated version of the side view, if it helps? I have no idea on the colour though.

John 

[Graham Boak]

In this photo it has not been converted into a torpedo bomber, and there would be no reason to convert it back to make it a Mk.II.  As confirmation, it would be interesting to compare its dates with Cyclones to those of the TB conversions.

[Hugh Thomson]

12 hours ago, canberra kid said:

A bigger if truncated version of the side view, if it helps? I have no idea on the colour though.

John 

Excellent photo. Again I think the undersurface is a light colour and my guess - as above - is that it's yellow. Where did you get the photo?

 

As an interesting aside it seems that a lot of early Hampdens did not have a D/F loop.

[canberra kid]

11 hours ago, Hugh Thomson said:

Excellent photo. Again I think the undersurface is a light colour and my guess - as above - is that it's yellow. Where did you get the photo?

 

As an interesting aside it seems that a lot of early Hampdens did not have a D/F loop.

Hugh, for what it's worth I would have ventured a guess at yellow too, as for the origin of the photo it was amongst the Samlesbury Hampden photos, but I don't think it's an English Electric photo? 

 

John  

[canberra kid]

Another one, this time it says AN127 HP (Canadian ACo) HAMPDEN MK1 489 SQD

John

[Graham Boak]

This one looks like a TB conversion and thus Sky undersides.