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Endeavor

Sectioned and Channeled Pocher Alfa Spyder

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I made styrene patterns for the doors to re-shape the door jambs.   Later, I will use the patterns to shape of the trailing edges of the cowl.  The templates do not yet include the hinges that protrude into the cowl.  It was not necessary at this point.

 

Both kit door jambs were poorly molded and required considerable work before I could begin to reshape them to conform to the door templates.  They had to be made wider, the straight runs were made straight, and imperfections from the molding process were removed.

 

This photograph was taken after the problems were corrected, but before the jambs were reshaped to fit new more accurate doors.

 

DSCN3180.jpg

 

 

The photograph below shows the right door jamb after the bottom and rear jambs were reshaped.  This photograph shows that, compared to the stock Pocher kit,  the new doors will be much lower at their trailing edges relative to the rear deck and their leading edges will be considerably higher relative to the cowl. 

 

I used the two  Dremel bits  to rework the jambs.

 

DSCN3193.jpg

 

 

Below is the passenger's door after the bottom  and rear sections of the  jam were repaired but before they were rebuilt.

 

You can see that I applied Milliput to both the inside and the outside of the body to strengthen the new joins.  The Milliput was applied after the panels were "welded" with solvent.  The body is now much stronger and more rigid.

 

DSCN3186.jpg

 

 

The passenger side jambs now conform to the bottom and rear edges of the door pattern.  The next project will be to reshape the cowl to conform to the front edges of the doors.

 

DSCN3188.jpg

 

The doors will have a subtle outward bend in their top edges but will be straight along their bottom edges. 

 

This photograph shows some of the radical reshaping that will be required to the rear body including the panels that have been re-positioned.  The "coke bottle" shape must be eliminated.  The center of the deck is very close to the correct height and the correct slope down to the rear, but the edges of the deck must be raised and the deck made flatter.  When the deck is made wider and flatter, the sides of the rear body will slope inward as they flow down to the frame, rather flowing outward as they do now.

 

After I finish the cowl, I will shorten the tail, build the spare wheel well and integrate it into the body.  Then, using styrene sheet and Milliput, the shape of the rear body will be rebuilt to resemble the prototypes. 

 

DSCN3184.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Endeavor

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What a beauty and awesome work!

Bravo!

 

Pascal

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You are showing how tenacity, talent, skills and perseverance can with a good basis achieve a piece of art.
Thank you sir!
Dan.   

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As a newcomer I came to this site seeking help with rescuing a decrepit Pocher alfa romeo monza. But I am totally amazed at the skill and dogged determination to get things right shown on here, particularly with this build. The bodywork reconstruction here is mind blowing. I am looking forward to following this through.

 

Just to go back a couple of posts to the firewall. I found that after scraping and sanding off the raised channels it still left lines in the memory of the plastic. Using a steel rule I could scribe the centre of each line with a scalpel against a steel edge. I then used an appropriate sized burr in a pin vice to make the half round depression. It probably still needs a bit of tidying and I also want to remove the outer frame edge. Hope that makes sense. See what you think.

 

my%20Firewall_zpsrg7phdsf.jpg

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32 minutes ago, Frogeye said:

As a newcomer I came to this site seeking help with rescuing a decrepit Pocher alfa romeo monza. But I am totally amazed at the skill and dogged determination to get things right shown on here, particularly with this build. The bodywork reconstruction here is mind blowing. I am looking forward to following this through.

 

Just to go back a couple of posts to the firewall. I found that after scraping and sanding off the raised channels it still left lines in the memory of the plastic. Using a steel rule I could scribe the centre of each line with a scalpel against a steel edge. I then used an appropriate sized burr in a pin vice to make the half round depression. It probably still needs a bit of tidying and I also want to remove the outer frame edge. Hope that makes sense. See what you think.

 

my%20Firewall_zpsrg7phdsf.jpg

It looks great!

 

Thank you for sharing this.  I will try to match what you have done.

 

And welcome to the forum.

 

 It's great to see another Pocher and to know that there is someone else out there scraping away with a pin vice.

Edited by Endeavor

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1 hour ago, Frogeye said:

 

 

Just to go back a couple of posts to the firewall. I found that after scraping and sanding off the raised channels it still left lines in the memory of the plastic. Using a steel rule I could scribe the centre of each line with a scalpel against a steel edge. I then used an appropriate sized burr in a pin vice to make the half round depression. It probably still needs a bit of tidying and I also want to remove the outer frame edge. Hope that makes sense. See what you think.

 

I think it's fine. It's certainly a lot easier than what I suggested on the last page.

You fit right in here...:cheers:

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2 hours ago, Frogeye said:

As a newcomer I came to this site seeking help with rescuing a decrepit Pocher alfa romeo monza. But I am totally amazed at the skill and dogged determination to get things right shown on here, particularly with this build. The bodywork reconstruction here is mind blowing. I am looking forward to following this through.

 

Just to go back a couple of posts to the firewall. I found that after scraping and sanding off the raised channels it still left lines in the memory of the plastic. Using a steel rule I could scribe the centre of each line with a scalpel against a steel edge. I then used an appropriate sized burr in a pin vice to make the half round depression. It probably still needs a bit of tidying and I also want to remove the outer frame edge. Hope that makes sense. See what you think.

 

my%20Firewall_zpsrg7phdsf.jpg

You might also want to get rid of the large plastic channels at the bottom of the firewall and bolt it to the chassis directly.   See my Monza below...

 

IMG_2186

 

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21 minutes ago, Jo NZ said:

You might also want to get rid of the large plastic channels at the bottom of the firewall and bolt it to the chassis directly.   See my Monza below...

 

A great point Jo for scale accuracy and exactly how I rid my Rolls of the same type device. This lowered my firewall/cowl .250" flush to the frame top which made all the difference in the world. I didn't know Alfas had the same affliction...

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These few photographs do not provide a complete sequence of recent work, but will, I hope, give a sense of what was involved.

 

Below is an early version of a template for the new doors resting in a ragged door opening.  Note that the top of the cowl is being modified to fit more accurate new doors.  Using a single template for both doors forces me to deal with the considerable asymmetries between the left and right sides of the body.

 

This template is too high on its leading edge and the hinges are much too thick.

 

DSCN3196.jpg

 

 

Below you see that I have begun to cut out the openings for the hinges using a template that was made in combination with a more accurate door template.

 

Below the model are a few of the drawings I made to determine the ultimate shape and size of the doors.

 

DSCN3198.jpg

 

 

When I enlarged the door openings prior to sectioning the cowl, I made the job more difficult.

 

DSCN3204.jpg

 

 

Before I could rebuild the door openings, I had to re-connect the cowl and the rear of the body.  You can see the shadows of three of the 10mm steel pins I used to strengthen the joins.  The joins were "welded" with solvent and reinforced with styrene patches.

 

DSCN3208.jpg

 

The left side cowl and rear body re-connected.  The panel between the two hinges and the trailing edge of the cowl have been rebuilt using pieces of Pocher plastic salvaged from previous work.  The photograph is blurred but you can see that several pieces were cut and put together to achieve the correct contours.

 

 The thin styrene sheet was "welded" to the top of the cowl and was used both to define the new shape and contours of the cowl and to add some strength.  

 

DSCN3210.jpg

 

 

The patch was "welded" with solvent.  Because I applied Milliput to the inside of the cowl joins, I will use two part epoxy for the patches that will reinforce the cowl joins.

 

DSCN3211.jpg

 

 

A piece of Pocher plastic was cut to fit the lower front of the door opening.  The styrene piece at the top of the cowl is getting close to its final shape. 

 

DSCN3218.jpg

 

Here you see how the size and shape of the added plastic pieces was defined and checked.

 

The pencil lines show how this template and the modified cowl will be altered. 

 

DSCN3219.jpg

 

 

It is still very rough and unfinished, but the major rebuilding of this door opening is done.

 

DSCN3224.jpg

 

 

This door template is the final shape and dimensions.  It fits both sides.  It is lower on its leading edge than earlier iterations.

 

The 0.27mm template fits better than it appears  in the photographs, but as you see, there is much fine tuning to be done. 

 

Then I get to do the second door.

 

DSCN3226.jpg

Edited by Endeavor

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The first step in determining the final shape and the dimensions of the tail of the body is to determine the position of the spare tire and the position of the spare tire well.

 

The first body I made had an attractive shape but the tail was considerably longer than the prototypes I want to emulate.  The extended length was due to the position of the spare tire, a problem which I have to solve a bit better this time.

 

Earlier in the thread I described the modifications I made to tilt the top of fuel tank forward.  This corrected the mistake Pocher made.  The mistake is obvious because in its "stock" position, the fuel tank filler does not line up with the fuel filler opening in the body.  Tilting the tank forward makes it line up correctly.  This also improves the position of the spare slightly but it is not enough.  The Pocher tank spare tire mount, seen below, positions the rear wheel too far out from the tank.

 

DSCN3215.jpg

 

The photograph below shows the tank in its correct position with a tire, without a wheel, taped against the tank.  The styrene piece shows the correct angle for the spare wheel.  The two lines show the correct angle of the rod that determines the height of the  wheel and tire.

 

The tire should be tilted a bit more forward.  The tank cannot be tilted any more than it is currently. 

 

The bottom of the trailing edge of the tire in the photo is 26mm back from the ends of the chassis rails.  The proper position for the tire would put it 29mm from the ends of the chassis rails.

 

There are four problems:

 

The tank cannot be moved, but it could be modified which would be difficult and would probably make it inaccurate.

 

If the tire well is positioned against the tank like the prototypes, the additional layer of plastic will move the tire rearward at least 1.5mm.

 

The Pocher  tire mount above, in its current slightly modified condition, will move the tire rearward 5mm from the position shown in the photograph below.

 

If  the tire is tilted to its proper position, it and the wheel well will extend too far to the rear, further than the second and third problems combined.

 

The problem must be solved so that I can build a correctly dimensioned body around a correctly positioned spare tire well.

 

DSCN3222.jpg

 

 

 

Edited by Endeavor

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I'm continuing to thoroughly enjoy your progress and look forward to every update.

Great skills and tremendous patience being shown here.

I doff my cap to you, Sir!

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David, your work is so engrossing that adequate compliments can not be fashioned. The work immerses my brain in the process and puts me right into your workroom. Tackling and solving the problems. That is also great writing, not just great building.

To that end, I have an idea I'd work at. I would completely scratch build a new tank, to the correct shapes needed but slimmer in dimensions and more correct in angles. I would accept the compromise that it is not 'accurate' in capacity but visually would 'fool the eye' and allow the complex shape changes in the rear body more easily. Only you have the pieces in hand to know if this is worth the effort and has a chance for success.

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Repairing the asymmetries of the Pocher body is a continuing major undertaking.  It's often difficult to show the problems in photographs because they are, by definition, on different sides of the model and the variances are often subtle.  The photograph below is a rare example of an asymmetry that can be seen easily in a photograph.

 

The two kits doors were modified on both their tops and bottoms to fit the first body I built.  However, the hinges have not been modified and you can see how different they are from each other.  Neither stock door fit the openings in the stock body.

 

DSCN3238.jpg

 

 

Below is a photograph of the stock Pocher spare wheel well.  Unlike the prototypes, the top is not recessed into the body.

 

DSCN1513-2.jpg

 

 

I have started to re-build the spare wheel well. I cut a slice from the bottom of the stock well and "welded" it to the top of the well.  You can see that major work will required.

 

DSCN3232.jpg

 

 

The top edges/ sides of the well should be close to 90 degrees from the bottom of the well.  Instead the sides flare outward and are asymmetric and inconsistent in flare, height, and distance from the center.

 

I will re-build the well by building up the sides with Milliput.   Below you see the first of several applications.

 

DSCN3235.jpg

 

 

With a tire in place, you can see the excessive outward flare of the sides and how different are the left and right sides of the well.

 

DSCN3237.jpg

 

 

I made a number of changes and adjustments to achieve the correct angle for the fuel tank and spare wheel mount.  I made changes to the mount to position the wheel closer to the tank and to achieve a more accurate appearance.  The brass rod is now mounted to the tank rather than to the bracket.  This is long way from being finished.

 

DSCN3243.jpg

 

 

The reference drawings I have relied on show the rear of the fuel tank and the spare wheel mounted at 55 degrees.  When I was building the first body, another member, Poul, told me that the drawings in his reference book showed an angle of 60 degrees.  This also appears to be the angle of the spare wheel of the prototype at the Revs Institute.  So I've decided to make the task easier and build it at 60 degrees.  This change significantly reduces the distance from the bottom of the spare to the rear of the frame.  I am within about 2mm of my goal.  Hopefully further work on the mount will get me the 2mm. 

 

The styrene piece is a 30 degree-60 degree right triangle.

 

DSCN3245.jpg

 

 

DSCN3248.jpg

 

 

Below you see how much the body will have to be reshaped to conform to the new position of the spare wheel.

 

The new length and slope of the rear deck are correct.

 

DSCN3249.jpg

 

 

DSCN3250_2.jpg

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I'm sorry I didn't buy Milliput shares last year. :smartass:

 

Agreed, Pocher part symmetry is non-existent. Always worth checking. My hood panels, fenders and doors were different side-to-side.

 

Glad you did not need to scratch a new gas tank as I suggested. For the spare well, I might consider a simpler fix. I would simply mold and sculpt the shape in clay (with a backing piece for strength), spray in mold release and lay in 2oz fiberglass cloth and resin. A technique the r/c aircraft (and boat) guys use.

Then epoxy to the bodywork.

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Alfa Romeo 8C, different body but perhaps the video is of any use for reference purposes. 

 

The car is at Louwman museum that I visited today with my daughter who is interested in these things (I had to be dragged along, of course); in the video you also see a couple of 6C's. 

 

 

Video quality will be better an hour from now... Youtube still needs to optimize the file.

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On 12/18/2018 at 7:10 AM, Codger said:

I'm sorry I didn't buy Milliput shares last year. :smartass:

 

I would simply mold and sculpt the shape in clay (with a backing piece for strength), spray in mold release and lay in 2oz fiberglass cloth and resin. A technique the r/c aircraft (and boat) guys use.

Then epoxy to the bodywork.

As always, an excellent suggestion, but I have almost finished re-building the outside of the spare tire well with Milliput.  Maybe next body.

 

 

DSCN3270.jpg

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On 12/20/2018 at 10:02 AM, Roy vd M. said:

Alfa Romeo 8C, different body but perhaps the video is of any use for reference purposes. 

 

The car is at Louwman museum that I visited today with my daughter who is interested in these things (I had to be dragged along, of course); in the video you also see a couple of 6C's. 

 

Thank you for posting this.  It is both informative and helpful, particularly for the chassis details.

 

I believe that the LeMans race cars were built on the longer chassis.  The front of the frame rails and the front spring mounting positions are those of the Touring Spyder rather than the Monza.

 

As different as the body is from the two seat Spyder's, the bonnet side panels, doors, and cowl are recognizably by Touring. 

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Yes it was the door section that reminded me of the Pocher model and that inspired me to make this brief walk around; glad you like it. 

 

Happy holidays everyone!

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Posted (edited)

I cut out the center of the spare tire well and applied more Milliput to achieve the correct inside diameter.  Almost done.

 

DSCN3309.jpg

 

 

I sanded the back side of the well, reducing its thickness by 1mm.  This makes it more accurate and enables me to move the spare wheel and tire closer to the fuel tank.  In pursuit of this goal, I also modified the spare wheel mount, including cutting 2mm from the two rods that run from the mount to the front of the tank.

 

DSCN3313.jpg

 

 

The  photograph below shows the new position of the spare wheel well.  After the contours and height of the deck are finalized, everything should fit together properly.

 

DSCN3281.jpg

 

The gaps will be filled with styrene and Milliput.  The top Milliput edge of the well you see here will be below the finished rear deck panels.

 

DSCN3278.jpg

Edited by Endeavor

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Posted (edited)

I want to install the firewall to strengthen the body before I begin major surgery on the rear body.

 

Following Frogeye's lead, I bought three burrs, removed Pocher's protruding details, and made channels like the prototypes.  

 

DSCN3286.jpg

 

 

Obviously, the firewall did not fit the lowered cowl.  I had already reshaped the top of the firewall to fit inside the cowl in its new position flush with the leading edgel.

 

DSCN3297.jpg

 

 

I removed a 7.5mm section of the firewall.

 

DSCN3299.jpg

 

 

DSCN3300.jpg

 

 

The two sections were welded together.  The bottom edges (feet) of the firewall were shaved 1mm.  

 

Cutting the firewall into two pieces made me realize that the right side of the groove I cut was too high.   I filled it with Milliput and cut a new groove.

 

DSCN3314.jpg

 

 

The firewall is still very different from the prototypes.  It's not good enough.

 

ref-25.jpg

 

 

Note the size and position of the vertical channels.

 

ref-56.jpg

 

 

A Monza

 

ref-115.jpg

 

 

I applied Milliput to the back of the firewall to reinforce the new join and to strengthen the upper firewall to prepare for upcoming surgery.  This will be hidden when the model is assembled.

 

DSCN3318.jpg

 

Below is the new shape with proper sized channels.  It needs more work, but it's not quite as rough as it appears to be in the photograph.

 

The firewall is still not accurate; the sides should be cut down so they are on the same plane as the top of the firewall.  Due to the way the piece is molded/ shaped in the back, it's a challenge.  I'm thinking about it.

 

DSCN3324.jpg

Edited by Endeavor

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Posted (edited)

Below is a photograph from earlier in the thread.  The cowl is at the stock Pocher height and, except for minor adjustments, the firewall has not been modified. 

 

I  used the slightly trimmed firewall as a template to make the cowl symmetrical. 

 

DSCN2947.jpg

 

 

The photograph below shows the sectioned and modified firewall press fit into the sectioned cowl.

 

Some adjustment of both pieces was required to fit the firewall into its new flush position.  A bit more work is required to achieve a proper fit.  Work on the cowl itself has just begun.

 

DSCN3350-2.jpg

 

 

 

DSCN3349.jpg

 

 

I have to decide whether or not I will remove the inaccurate "steps" on both sides of the firewall.  I am procrastinating.

 

Removing the "steps" would require building styrene or Milliput patches flush with the leading edge of the cowl.

 

DSCN3345-2.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Endeavor

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Yet another complex problem being systematically thought-through.

Great work David.

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