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Endeavor

Sectioned and Channeled Pocher Alfa Spyder

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On 11/10/2018 at 1:01 PM, Endeavor said:

Already insane.  Would appreciate any ideas that help to maintain current mental state.

Apologies for a late reply.

 

Consider this: apply wide masking tape to the firewall covering the raised ribs. Use a pencil or charcoal to rub the pattern through onto the tape.

Apply that tape to .010 or .015 thick styrene. Using new scalpel, cut the pattern through both tape and styrene - making slots in plastic. These sizes are thin enough to do that. Make an upper and lower section.

Center the pattern and trim the outer edges to match the firewall.

ONLY WHEN satisfied with the pattern, sand the ribs off the f'wall. Then glue the pattern in place on f'wall.

Use filler to fair the edges so the pattern becomes one with the f'wall - like a stamping.

Moderately insane, definitely crude but cutting the pattern will tell you right away if you think the look is accurate enough. Not much time lost.

 

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Interesting idea.  I'll give it a try. Thank you!

 

Edit:  The ribs are 0.5mm high so they should be 0.5mm deep, and rounded at the bottom.

Edited by Endeavor

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I started to work on the rear of the body.

 

The first step was to move the leading edge of the rear deck back 2mm.

 

I marked where the cuts would be made.

 

Ignore the lines behind the hatch openings.  They were made for another purpose.

 

DSCN3060.jpg

 

 

Here you see the saw cuts made to remove the forward section.

 

DSCN3063.jpg

 

 

Here you can see where the saw cuts will be made to remove the 2mm section.

 

DSCN3065.jpg

 

 

The front section and the 2mm pieces were removed.  The 2mm sections are in front below.

 

DSCN3076.jpg

 

 

The leading edge is taped in place in its new set back position.

 

DSCN3069.jpg

 

 

 

DSCN3072.jpg

 

 

The next step will be to lower the rear body 2mm so that the the leading edge of the deck will be at the correct height relative to the ground and the cowl.  Then the leading edge of the rear of the body, between the tops of the new door jambs and the top of the deck must be rebuilt.

 

Later tasks will include widening and reshaping the whole rear section with styrene sheet and Milliput.  The deck will be shorter and must slope down as it flows to the tail.  The tire well will be rebuilt and the top of the tire well will be located 2mm closer to the front of the deck.

 

Touring bodies were all slightly different.  Below is one possible rear deck configuration.  Two others are shown in the June 6th post on page three.  In any case, most of the prototypes have doors similar to those in the photograph below and are quite different than those in the Pocher kit.

 

4.jpg

Edited by Endeavor

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I greatly respect that you now have the determination to press on with so complex a set of changes.  One change necessitates those that follow. This is an entirely different breed of model building. A Herculean effort on your part.

 

This was all apparently too complex for Pocher to get right in the outset - the design phase. They made a lovely little model car but it's not an 8C 2300 Alfa Romeo - as you're proving.

 

I know you still have miles to go with your corrections - please don't lose your drive.

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4 hours ago, Codger said:

They made a lovely little model car but it's not an 8C 2300 Alfa Romeo - as you're proving.

 

Sadly, I don't think that there's a proper true to scale model out there, especially for us car nuts......we ARE the minority!!! 

The attitude towards cars and their tech seems to be ...if it looks near enough, then it'll do...……….NO, IT WON'T. Even MFH 1/12 kits at 500+quid need a lot of work, to make them correct.

 

You are doing an almighty plastic-surgery job on this, to create your vision. I learn from your each and every update, Mr Endeavour...…:thumbsup:

 

Cheers, H

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17 minutes ago, harveyb258 said:

The attitude towards cars and their tech seems to be ...if it looks near enough, then it'll do...……….NO, IT WON'T. Even MFH 1/12 kits at 500+quid need a lot of work, to make them correct.

True enough Mr H but as Devil's Advocate for a minute - kits would be priced leagues above where the upper limits are now for Pochers or MFH's - something few here are willing to endure.

 

Having them arrive with compromises and inaccuracies DOES make several highly talented pros like yourself, David and several others here produce wizard work like this.

 

To our great entertainment and learning. :worthy:

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Granted Chas. 

 

If it wasn't for inaccurate kits, we would all still be building OOB models!!!

That would never do!!!!:D

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The first steps to the reconstruction of the rear deck is to get the fundamental dimensions right.  Later I will attempt to get the shapes and contours right.

 

To place the leading edge of the rear deck in its correct position relative to the cowl, doors, and rear axle, I moved the rear hatch openings back 10mm.

 

I began by making two saw cuts 10mm apart.

 

DSCN3077.jpg

 

 

One saw cut was made on each side to release the hatch openings and the panel that will be removed.

 

DSCN3087.jpg

 

 

 

DSCN3089.jpg

 

 

This operation only facilitates making a few horizontal dimensions correct. It's just the beginning.

 

DSCN3090.jpg

 

 

 

DSCN3097.jpg

 

 

Edited by Endeavor

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Here is the the hatch opening panel in place.  The fit is not important at this point as both the panel and the rear body must be modified so that the hatch openings tilt a bit to the rear.

 

DSCN3103.jpg

 

 

Note the position of the leading edge of the panel relative to the wheel and door opening.

 

DSCN3102.jpg

 

 

Here is a look with a very rough work-in-process wing in approximate position.

 

DSCN3098.jpg

 

 

The goal is to make it look something like one of these.

 

Alfa-Romeo-8-C-2300-profile-900x600.jpg                Alfa-8-C-2300.jpg

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Will the doors be completely scratch-built?

Edited by Codger

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2 hours ago, Codger said:

Will the doors be completely scratch-built?

II will attempt to utilize a portion of the kit doors, but I think ultimately it will be necessary to begin from scratch.  As you can see in the blurry photograph below, the kit doors are curved along their entire length, both top and bottom,.  They are curved despite the fact that the kit's bottom door jambs- and leading and trailing door jambs- are straight.

 

DSCN3112.jpg

 

 

Photographs I posted earlier in the thread revealed how the kit's curved doors make a substantial contribution to the inaccurate bulbous appearance of the Pocher model. 

 

I have a plan drawing of a Touring Spyder that shows the doors with a slight top curvature, but much less than the kit.  The photographs of prototypes I have studied appear to show doors with a very slight curvature, particularly toward the leading edge as the door also bends inward as it meets the cowl.  The kit doors do not incorporate this compound curvature.

 

Good photographs of Spyder doors are hard to find.  Below are two of the best I have.

 

Patina.jpg

 

 

3-4-Rear.jpg

 

Edited by Endeavor

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1 hour ago, Endeavor said:

II will attempt to utilize a portion of the kit doors, but I think ultimately it will be necessary to begin from scratch.  As you can see in the blurry photograph below, the kit doors are curved along their entire length, both top and bottom,.  They are curved despite the fact that the kit's bottom door jambs- and leading and trailing door jambs- are straight.

 

Photographs I posted earlier in the thread revealed how the kit's curved doors make a substantial contribution to the inaccurate bulbous appearance of the Pocher model. 

 

I have a plan drawing of a Touring Spyder that shows the doors with a slight top curvature, but much less than the kit.  The photographs of prototypes I have studied appear to show doors with a very slight curvature, particularly toward the leading edge as the door also bends inward as it meets the cowl.  The kit doors do not incorporate this compound curvature.

 

Thanks for  a great explanation.

Using my own Rolls experience, I strongly urge you to scratch new doors. Getting curvatures like that out and even, side-to-side, is virtually impossible (I found) due to the nature of 40 year old Pocher plastic. In all, I did three sets of doors to keep the ones I have. 3/32 square and U-channel brass was vital for strength and keeping contour with the thin sheet skins required for fit. At least you don't need window channels and latch hardware, which work against thinness.

 

Your results may vary...

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I knew that there was a reason why I never built the Spyder. At least the Monza I’m working on doesn’t have any doors to complicate it. Like Codger said 😵

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I have been spending a lot of time measuring and planning how to proceed.  I am also thinking about how far I should/ can go with my attempt at realism.  For example, the tops of the leading edges of the doors on the prototypes are higher up on the cowl than those of the Pocher kit or the modified model.  Fixing this will involve more modifications to the cowl.  The trailing edges of the prototype doors look as low as they do not only because they actually are lower, but also because the leading edges are higher.

 

The photograph below shows one of the pencil lines defining the cuts that I made to remove the rest of rear deck from the body.  The deck will be lowered and tilted so that it meets the spare tire well at the correct height.  The white styrene piece welded to the deck establishes the correct length of the deck.  The deck will be extended using Milliput and a piece of Pocher plastic sourced from material removed during an earlier operation. 

 

I started to modify the body sides under the hatch cover panel so that this part of the deck will slant like those of the prototypes.  It's still rough, but you can see that the rear section of the deck must be lowered and tilted.

 

DSCN3121.jpg

 

Both sections of the rear deck removed.

 

DSCN3129.jpg

 

 

DSCN3131.jpg

 

 

Here the rear deck section is taped in place while the front deck section and the sides of the body it rests upon are adjusted.  The pencil line defines the section of the body side that will be removed and it also establishes the height of the trailing edge of the door.

 

DSCN3141.jpg

 

 

You can see how much the leading edge of the rear section must be lowered.  The trailing edge will be lowered even more to achieve the desired incline.

 

The trailing edge of the deck where it meets the spare tire well will be 12mm lower than it was before this surgery began. 

 

DSCN3142.jpg

 

 

 

DSCN3144.jpg

 

 

 

DSCN3146.jpg

 

 

I began to rebuild the spare tire well.  A piece was removed from the deeper bottom half .

 

DSCN3135.jpg

 

 

The piece that was removed will be utilized to rebuild the top section.  

 

This well will not be as deep at the well on the first body I built.

 

DSCN3136.jpg

 

 

The tire reveals how much the well must be modified.  In addition to the differences between it and the wells of prototypes, you can see from these photographs that the well is not symmetrical.

 

DSCN3139.jpg

 

 

Edited by Endeavor

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Good Lord.....the thought has occurred just now that it might have been easier to loft this whole tub with body buck formers, renshape or balsa, make a mold and fiberglass it. You have and know all the dimensions. There is virtually nothing left of Pocher origin now...or soon will be.

Genius but hard work...

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Whn I built my Monza someone asked me if there were parts that I hadn't modified in any way. I had to think for a long time before I came up with one - the steering outer shaft...

This goes way beyond that!

Incidentally have you extended the front dumb irons? I have a feeling that they're 6" longer than on the Monza chassis (as supplied in the kit).

 

Following on from Codger's comment - it may be worth taking a mould off the body when it's finished. It's looking closer and closer to a real car with every cut....

Edited by Jo NZ

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1 hour ago, Codger said:

.....the thought has occurred just now that it might have been easier to loft this whole tub with body buck formers, renshape or balsa, make a mold and fiberglass it.

Thanks, Chas.

 

Yes, that thought also has occurred to me.  But I lack the skills/ experience for that.  And, I'm in too deep.

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1 hour ago, Jo NZ said:

 

Incidentally have you extended the front dumb irons? I have a feeling that they're 6" longer than on the Monza chassis (as supplied in the kit).

 

Following on from Codger's comment - it may be worth taking a mould off the body when it's finished. It's looking closer and closer to a real car with every cut....

Thank you, Jo

 

I have not extended the dumb irons.  As you know, there is considerable variation in the prototypes, and some appear to have elongated thinned out dumb irons.  However, all of my good profile photographs and a few plan drawings show the leading edges of the Spyder frame rails extending to the same vertical plane as the leading edge of the front tires.  So, for now, I'm satisfied.

 

I did increase the length of the front springs and I raised the front mounting points to the leading edge of the rails so that it more closely resembles the Spyder prototypes rather that the Monza.  An important additional benefit was that this lowered the front of the chassis so that the tops of the rails are parallel to the ground.

 

This is described in some detail in my May 20th post on page two.

 

If I am satisfied with the final result, I will pursue the possibility of making duplicate bodies.

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11 hours ago, Endeavor said:

.  But I lack the skills/ experience for that.  And, I'm in too deep.

I doubt the first part but well know the second part. When I began butchering an unstarted 40 year-old Rolls, that hit me like a thunderclap...:mental:

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A narrow tapered slice was removed from the top of each side of the rear body.  Here one-third has been removed and the remainder is being cut off with the flush cutting saw.  The pieces that were removed taper from 1.6mm to 5.5mm.  

 

DSCN3148.jpg

 

 

 

DSCN3151.jpg

 

 

Below you see the two top sections of the rear deck in position.  Because of all the compound curves, both in the stock Pocher body and in the contours of the rebuilt body, it is quite rough at this point.  But I think that the slope of the deck and the height of the leading and trailing edges are correct. 

 

Major remaining tasks include shortening and rebuilding the body so it extends only slightly beyond the frame rails, building and installing the spare tire well, widening the sides and top of the body, and raising the sides of the deck to make it flatter.  The height of the body between the two hatch openings reveals the extent of the excess curvature of the deck.

 

DSCN3153.jpg

 

 

This photograph shows how much work remains to be done to finish fitting the two panels.

 

DSCN3154.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I just completed taking another series of measurements in preparation for more cutting and "welding".  Because the body is so asymmetrical, it is necessary to take all measurements with the body mounted on the chassis and the chassis sitting level on its wheels.  Getting accurate consistent measurements and taking steps to compensate for the asymmetries is a constant time consuming challenge.

 

The first photograph below shows a paper template made from the lower left side of the body.  The second photograph shows the same template applied to the right side of the body.  The photographs demonstrate why it is not possible to take measurements based on reference points on the body and why so much "adjustment" is required.  

 

In the first photograph, the top edge of the template rests up against the molded "spear" trim.  The bottom edge of the template is flush with the bottom edge of the body.

 

DSCN3159.jpg

 

In this photograph the bottom of the template is flush with the bottom edge body only under the door opening and that portion of the body forward of the cutout for the forward damper attachment point on the frame.

 

The top of the template does not fit properly against any part of the "spear".

 

DSCN3165.jpg

 

 

The leading edge of this section of the spear is located  more than 1mm lower on the right side than on the left.  The "spear" was going to be removed anyway.

 

In the previous post you can see that Pocher provided three holes on each side of this section of the body.  The location of the three holes, relative to each other, is different on each side.

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Simple but brilliant detective work. More evidence that Pochers should not be trusted for accuracy. Lack of symmetry is just poor pattern making.

Yes I'm bashing them unfairly because they're not around to explain or defend this work.

I think when you're all through David, this will resemble no other Spyder model extant.

Except the real ones.

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I removed two sections of the rear body with a hobby knife, using the back side of the blade.  Below are two work-in-process photographs.

 

DSCN3168.jpg

 

 

 

DSCN3171.jpg

 

 

Here is the result.  In front of the rear wheels are the two sections I removed and the styrene template I used to define the pieces to be removed. 

 

DSCN3176.jpg

 

 

 

DSCN3177.jpg

Edited by Endeavor

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shucks.

 

i'll tag along if u dont mind.

 

poacher has always been a bit expensive for me.

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