Sectioned and Channeled Pocher Alfa Spyder

[Jo NZ]

It looks to me like the step down the side is too narrow, and the angled skirt needs to be wider and blend into it.  I'd start by bonding a piece of Pocher scrap to each side of the back of the firewall, hack the front back to the right width and then build up the angled bit to match. The corners are too rounded on that anyway.

Don't underestimate the use of Pocher scrap for filling holes: the wheel jigs are a great source of flat sheet, and if fitted carefully and cyano'd in, it's almost undetectable.

[larchiefeng]

What you’re doing here with this Alfa makes what I’m doing with the F-40 seem like a walk in the park! This body has been cut and glued back together so many times that it probably looks like Frankenstein’s stitched head on the underneath side of the body. I have to admire your single minded devotion to getting this body as close to your prototype as humanly possible! 🤪

Great work Dave!!

[Endeavor]

1 hour ago, Jo NZ said:

It looks to me like the step down the side is too narrow, and the angled skirt needs to be wider and blend into it.  I'd start by bonding a piece of Pocher scrap to each side of the back of the firewall, hack the front back to the right width and then build up the angled bit to match. The corners are too rounded on that anyway.

Don't underestimate the use of Pocher scrap for filling holes: the wheel jigs are a great source of flat sheet, and if fitted carefully and cyano'd in, it's almost undetectable.

Thank you for your response and suggestion.  Thoughtful and helpful as always.

 

Of course, you are right.  I did not want to elaborate on the complexity of the task just yet.

 

I am not ready to proceed because I am not confident I have a good plan.  I would like more helpful photographs and scaled drawings  I don’t know the precise position of the bottom leading edges of a Touring Spyder cowl or the  width of the firewall relative to the inside and outside dimensions of the rails.

 

I believe that the forward protruding section of the Pocher firewall is too narrow by about 2.25-2.5mm on each side.  The “correct” measurement coincides with the outside dimension of the “feet” on the bottom of the kit’s firewall, which, instead of sitting on the top of the frame rails like the prototypes, only extend to the inside of the rails.  It makes sense to widen and reshape the forward section of the firewall as you described.

 

However, the raised sections of the firewall that run down the sides at a right angle to the protruding front section are a bit more than 4mm wide so they would have to be narrowed a bit more than 1.5mm.  I think both jobs are necessary.

 

Perhaps the most obvious visible result of widening the front section is that it would require building accurate correctly positioned feet on the bottom of the firewall, something which you have already accomplished on your Monza.

 

Thanks again for your response.  It’s much appreciated.

Edited January 5, 2019 by Endeavor

[Endeavor]

2 hours ago, larchiefeng said:

What you’re doing here with this Alfa makes what I’m doing with the F-40 seem like a walk in the park! This body has been cut and glued back together so many times that it probably looks like Frankenstein’s stitched head on the underneath side of the body. I have to admire your single minded devotion to getting this body as close to your prototype as humanly possible! 🤪

Great work Dave!!

That's some park you are walking in!  

 

The experience of building a 1/12th scale MFH model gives me some idea of the challenge you face integrating that transkit into a much modified Pocher.  At least MFH provides good drawings.

 

I am enjoying watching your progress.  Looking forward to your upcoming posts..

 

Thanks for the kind words.

[Endeavor]

 

I narrowed the protruding vertical section of the firewall by removing a piece from each side so that the steps" are in line with the edges of the "feet" of the forward section.  In the photograph below, the left side has been trimmed and the right side is unchanged.

 

 

 

After both sides were trimmed, I built up both sides of the forward section with laminated panels of styrene.  By laminating a combination of 0.3mm and 0.2mm sheets, I was able to make each new panel almost perfectly flush both with the stepped section it buts up against and the outside edge of the "feet".

 

The curvature of the forward section created large gaps between the new panels and the Pocher part.  The gaps were filled with Milliput.

 

I first attempted to make the new panels from pieces of Pocher plastic, but the additional work required due to the multiple seams and inappropriate thickness made me abandon the attempt and opt for the styrene. 

 

 

 

Later, I will round off the outside edges a bit more, less that the Pocher part and hopefully more like the prototypes.

 

 

 

I filled the imperfections and new seams with two part body putty.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The firewall is loosely in place.

 

The change is subtle.  Hopefully, several subtle body modifications will have a significant impact.

 

 

 

The next task is to construct the "feet" that attach the firewall to the tops of the frame rails.

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2019 by Endeavor

[Roy vd M.]

On 1/5/2019 at 4:58 AM, Endeavor said:

I would like more helpful photographs and scaled drawings  I don’t know the precise position of the bottom leading edges of a Touring Spyder cowl or the  width of the firewall relative to the inside and outside dimensions of the rails.

Could you make a sketch of your exact query? Tomorrow I will visit Interclassics Maastricht (https://www.interclassicsmaastricht.nl/nl/) and if there happens to be an Alfa Romeo 8C I will ask to take some photographs. 

[Roy vd M.]

Meanwhile, a Jay Leno video of a (apparently highly accurate) Monza replica might be of any use, if you hadn't looked at it already:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hope this is of any use. I know little of Alfa Romeo, let alone this type, so I'm not sure the firewalls of the Spyder and Monza cars were the same... at first glance they look alike. Anyway as said if you could make a sketch and if I'll encounter an 8C tomorrow I could ask to take some pictures. 

 

Here is the video I took the screencaps off of: 

 

 

[Roy vd M.]

Allow yourself to enjoy what you have achieved so far... from the Pocher piece to your own built findings: 

 

 

 

Of course the first two pictures were taken from a higher angle. 

[harveyb258]

What a great video.

[larchiefeng]

I’ve watched this video a few different times while doing the research for my Monza build. I know that it’s a replica built by those guys in Argentina but, they do the best most accurate replicas in the world. I was looking at completely different areas of the car and I never noticed the reversed stamping on the firewall ribs much less the different profile of the section that you just corrected. You can clearly see that your firewall is closer to the replica than the kit. I’m not sure if I’m going to spend the time to correct that or not. Now that I’m back working on the Ferrari I haven’t given the Alfa much thought. And, I still don’t have the paint I ordered back in October. 

You’re doing great work on this Alfa! You have made so many corrections that it’s going to be hard to look at another straight Alfa Spyder build again and think of it as an accurate representation. 

[Endeavor]

7 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

Could you make a sketch of your exact query? Tomorrow I will visit Interclassics Maastricht (https://www.interclassicsmaastricht.nl/nl/) and if there happens to be an Alfa Romeo 8C I will ask to take some photographs. 

The closeup photographs you posted of the relationships between the firewall, cowl, and frame rails of the Monza are exactly what I need, but of a real Touring Spyder.

 

There are variations between the prototypes and the accuracy of the replicas varies.  For a good illustration of the variations, check out the first photograph of the Touring Spyder on page 1 of this thread.

 

Thank you for your posts and support!  I appreciate it.

[Jo NZ]

Maybe this will help - it's a Touring bodied 4 seater, but with cycle wings.... This is the picture I used for the bottom bracket on the firewall

 

 

[Codger]

All of you guys have uncovered and contributed great reference for all Alfa builders. David is doing ground-breaking work, as has Jo on this subject.

 

A huge thanks to you all for the knowledge shared.

[Endeavor]

I am preparing the body and chassis to install the spare tire well.

 

I removed the bottom of the tail so it will be at the correct height relative to the frame.

 

In this photograph, the spare wheel is positioned too far to the rear, constrained both by the bracket mount and by the trailing edge of the deck.

 

The first applications of Milliput to widen and flatten the deck top reveal "how the sausage is made".

 

 

 

The spare wheel bracket was modified to allow the tire well and the wheel to be positioned closer to the fuel tank.  The openings for the rods that pass through the tank and secure the bracket to the upper cross member were drilled out to position the nuts against the tank.  Laminated styrene  (0.2mm) welded to the rear of the bracket provides traction for the nuts. The rods were shortened 3mm.

 

The brass rod that holds the spare wheel  is now bolted to the fuel tank rather than to the bracket, and was raised an additional 2mm to position the spare at the proper height.

 

 

 

The spare wheel well now rests flat against the upper section of the tank.  The bottom of the bracket (blue/grey in the photograph) was cut down to achieve this fit.

 

 

 

The position of the wheel is shown here with a 30/60 degree right triangle.

 

 

 

 

 

The triangle in this photograph  is a 35/55 degree right triangle.  To position the spare at a 55 degree angle it would be necessary to build a very different fuel tank or to lengthen the tail considerably.  This is why the tail of the first body I built was too long.

 

 

 

The photograph below shows the progress being made to widen and flatten the rear deck with Milliput.  The outward flare of the body seen here is largely due to the trailing sections of the tail, and this will be corrected when the well is installed.  Still a very long way to go.

 

 

 

The photographs below, when compared with the first photograph in this post, show the result of the modifications made to the spare wheel bracket and the trailing edge of the deck.  The well is now positioned properly and I can begin to plan the integration of the well into the body.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This photograph shows how much shorter the new body will be than the stock Pocher body, about 12mm shorter.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by Endeavor

[Codger]

Besides sharing it all, thanks for sticking with this journey all the way. This much work and problem solving would be daunting for most of us mere mortals...

[Jo NZ]

It's always the hardest part of scratch-building, getting all the different parts in the correct locations relative to each other. Once that's done it's much easier to work out how they all join together...

[JeroenS]

Amazing how you're apparently able to see a path through all this work that has to be done, and then also to carry it out, getting the desired results. Daunting indeed!

[Endeavor]

Before cutting off the trailing edge of the body, I attached the wheel well to the body with Milliput.  The first application was done from the exterior to ensure correct positioning and alignment.

 

 

 

The second application of Milliput was done from the inside.  This adds considerable strength, rigidity, and weight.

 

 

 

The third application was made from the outside, after the well was securely fastened in the correct position.

 

 

 

With the body strengthened, rigid,  and with the well positioned correctly, I cut off the tail.

 

 

 

The surface of the rear deck should be flush with the outer edge of the well.  The well will be shallower at the top and  deeper at the bottom.

 

I left extra material on the well and on the trailing edge of the body so I will have some latitude as I attempt to make everything fit correctly.  It will be more work but I was not confident I could make more precise cuts.

 

 

 

The new shape shape of the body - a wider and flatter top deck with sides that flow slightly inward down to the frame- is slowly coming into focus.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The photograph below shows how much work will be required to cut the body back so that the panels will flow to the outer edge of the well. 

 

 

 

 

[sharknose156]

This is really sculptural art, beautiful. I admire your natural ease and confidence in improving shapes and form. This car has its own particular soul and character now and it is really beautiful.  

[Endeavor]

5 hours ago, sharknose156 said:

This is really sculptural art, beautiful. I admire your natural ease and confidence in improving shapes and form. This car has its own particular soul and character now and it is really beautiful.  

Thank you for the compliment and encouragement.  I appreciate it.

 

I'm afraid the "confidence" is a bit of an illusion.  I spend much more time thinking about how to proceed than I do actually doing the building.  The simple declarative statements and the relatively clean process pictured in the thread follow only after several false starts and the mistakes I make in my head.

 

 

[JeroenS]

A good place to make mistakes 🙂 

[Codger]

2 hours ago, Endeavor said:

I'm afraid the "confidence" is a bit of an illusion.  I spend much more time thinking about how to proceed than I do actually doing the building.  The simple declarative statements and the relatively clean process pictured in the thread follow only after several false starts and the mistakes I make in my head.

The head is the best place to make mistakes - it's cheaper and less frustrating in the end. And it surely takes confidence to hack several Pochers to bits to achieve a vision.

The brilliance of what you're doing is surely in the head - as Roy and the other highly advanced builders demonstrate here daily. Hours of planning, materials research and tool learning are pushing the modelling envelope here for our enormous benefit.

We know that the beauty shown in your thread is after hours and days of struggle and trial/error. I have donated many of my follicles to this process but with nowhere near the radical and spectacular results you've achieved.

VERY excited to see the rear buttoned up in final shape - and please mock a fender in with those views, with a stock rear along side. I like to squint like a kid to dream the entire finished look..........

[harveyb258]

3 hours ago, Endeavor said:

spend much more time thinking about how to proceed than I do actually doing the building.

I know the feeling very well....it can be a very frustrating process at times. Like the best snooker players in the world, you have to be consistently thinking at least 4 to 5 steps ahead  and yes, it can very often turn into several attempts to achieve one's goal.

 

I applaud you for your vision, skills and tenacity Sir!! Thank you for keeping us entertained!

[Endeavor]

An assessment.

 

A photograph of a 8c 2300 Touring Spyder taken from a low angle.

 

 

 

A stock OOB Pocher Spyder built years ago.  A bit worse for wear.

 

 

 

I think of this project as only building a kit from which I will later build a model(s).  That is why the bodies are so rough at this point.

 

Below is the first body I built.  It looks great, but it is inaccurate.

 

 

 

 

 

The second body  is shown here in an earlier stage of construction, but the differences in the dimensions and proportions are obvious.

 

 

 

One less obvious difference between the two is that because the cowl on the second body was shortened by removing a section from the rear rather than from the center, the cockpit is larger and firewall is in its original position.  With the stock hood installed on both bodies, the radiator shell is further forward on the second body.  This will be dealt with later.

 

 

 

The first body has the spare wheel at 55 degrees and, thus, a longer tail.

 

 

 

The spare wheel on the second body is mounted at 60 degrees.  Due to the still early stage of the second build, it is not really a fair comparison, but the dimensions and proportions are close to what the final result will be.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Notice how Milliput has been applied to widen the rear body and to flatten the rear deck.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2019 by Endeavor

[Codger]

David, are you using gray Milliput to fill in the rough areas? The contours are looking great.