North American O-47

[Tweener]

Sorry for my long absence! Finals have been a very busy time for me. The B-10 was put on hold, but the AT-11 is coming along well. I should have it closed up and with wings mounted tomorrow. In the meantime, I picked up the AML 1/72 North American O-47, and have been confused by the painting directions, as they mention both a zinc chromate (which would be green zinc chromate for the time period) and an interior green as well. I did not previously think that the USAAC had a dedicated interior green. Does anyone know anything about this, and is AML wrong?

 

Many thanks, Tweener

 

[72modeler]

I'm away from my references at the moment, but until Dana Bell chimes in, I think the zinc chromate would be yellow and the cockpits most likely would be bronze green, but the observation "pit" might be unfinished aluminum. Might also depend upon what time frame you're talking about. The FS equivalents I have seen in print for bronze green are 34050 and 34092. I will see if I can find a more definitive answer.

Mike

 

The Air Force Museum has a restored O-47A, but I don't remember seeing any interior photos.

Edited May 7, 2018 by 72modeler
added FS 595a paint codes

[Tweener]

4 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

I'm away from my references at the moment, but until Dana Bell chimes in, I think the zinc chromate would be yellow and the cockpits most likely would be bronze green, but the observation "pit" might be unfinished aluminum. Might also depend upon what time frame you're talking about. I will see if I can find a more definitive answer.

Mike

 

The Air Force Museum has a restored O-47A, but I don't remember seeing any interior photos.

From what I have seen from a few restored and preserved airframes, the zinc chromate was green, not yellow. I may be wrong but it was my understanding that the yellow form wasn't used until B-25, P-51, P-47, P-38, etc, and thus just after the O-47 left production. The interior of the cockpit on all photos I have seen suggests aluminum, with sections in green chromate, but they have been conflicting as well, perhaps because of different standards between A and B series machines. This is much the same as the wheel wells, where most photo's (and I have a number in color thankfully) show aluminum, but others a dull green, perhaps the bronze green that you have mentioned.

 

Thanks, Tweener

[Roger Holden]

Zinc Chromate Green aka Tinted Zinc Chromate was renamed and standardised as Interior Green circa 1943 and given an ANA number. Before then, it was mixed by adding black (and sometimes silver) to the standard yellow zinc chromate primer, which could give a variety of light green shades, depending on the quantities used. But I've seen a colour photo of the interior of one of the surviving O-47 aircraft somewhere and I'm pretty sure it was Bronze Green, which is a dark green colour.

 

The yellow form is the original shade, introduced around 1935. The green (ie yellow with black added) was conceived originally to distinguish where a second coat had been applied over the yellow base coat. 

[72modeler]

16 minutes ago, Roger Holden said:

Zinc Chromate Green aka Tinted Zinc Chromate was renamed and standardised as Interior Green circa 1943 and given an ANA number. Before then, it was mixed by adding black (and sometimes silver) to the standard yellow zinc chromate primer, which could give a variety of light green shades, depending on the quantities used. But I've seen a colour photo of the interior of one of the surviving O-47 aircraft somewhere and I'm pretty sure it was Bronze Green, which is a dark green colour.

 

The yellow form is the original shade, introduced around 1935. The green (ie yellow with black added) was conceived originally to distinguish where a second coat had been applied over the yellow base coat. 

I think I remember reading in the Monogram book on US Aircraft Colors and Markings that the formula for  the chromate primer used in aircraft was 1 gallon of zinc chromate to  1/10 gallon black lacquer...I have no idea what tint that formula would have, but doesn't sound like it would be close to the 34151 interior green that was standardized later  as a cockpit and primer color. I am NO authority on interiors and definitely not for the pre/early WW2 time period, so I will leave this one to the experts.

I thought there were some good O-47A interior photos in my copy of  NAA Aircraft, vol.1, but just exterior and assembly line pictures- sorry!

Mike

[Dana Bell]

Hi Tweener,

 

The two O-47 cockpits I've seen (one in person, one in period color photos) were Dull Dark Green, a dark flat lacquer that was not oily like Bronze Green.  I've never gotten a good look in the belly of an O-47, but I suspect it would have been aluminum lacquer.

 

Zinc chromate primer was a very cool yellow.  Before the war it could be tinted with aluminum (aluminized zinc chromate) to yield a bright, candy-apple green, or tinted with aluminum and black (Yellow Green) to yield a more pastel green shade.  During the wartime aluminum shortage, manufacturers were given the freedom to use other pigments to tint zinc chromate - red and gray being the most common tinting media.  In 1943 the US Army and Navy posted a black and zinc chromate formula standardized as Interior Green.

 

In application, yellow zinc chromate was always the first coat.  Most manufacturers then used a tinted zinc chromate as the second coat - the tint announced to inspectors that an aircraft had two complete primer coats.  A third finish coat (if one was applied) could be aluminized lacquer or any left-over camouflage lacquer.  Cockpits were originally green (one of the darker shades or one of the tinted chromate shades) to reduce interior reflection on instruments during night flights.  In 1944 black was officially added as a cockpit anti-glare color, as was Medium Green camouflage paint (which was rarely used).

 

Good luck with the model - I always loved the the O-47's lines, but it managed to represent the US Army's attempts to build a better aircraft to refight World War One.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

 

[JWM]

A bit off topic - but still about O-47. Have you seen this interesting set of photos here:

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/north-american-o-47.42542/

There is nice drawing about the inside on page 2.

I am surprised for photos with late style insignia like here

 

BTW - where this photo could be taken? The plants on hills look a bit tropial.

As here also

 

On contrary - below the environment looks for Alaska 

 

Here is another interesting set...:

http://aviation.hawaii.gov/airfields-airports/oahu/bellows-field/photos-of-bellows-field/

Regards

J-W

 

[JWM]

P.S.

Here are photos from Atlantic anti submarine patrols with two depth charges mk 17

 http://www.airailimages.com/aircraft-type-photos----all-other.html

among them that one:

Cheers

J-W

 

 

[Tweener]

On 5/21/2018 at 2:16 PM, JWM said:

A bit off topic - but still about O-47. Have you seen this interesting set of photos here:

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/north-american-o-47.42542/

There is nice drawing about the inside on page 2.

I am surprised for photos with late style insignia like here

 

BTW - where this photo could be taken? The plants on hills look a bit tropial.

As here also

 

On contrary - below the environment looks for Alaska 

 

Here is another interesting set...:

http://aviation.hawaii.gov/airfields-airports/oahu/bellows-field/photos-of-bellows-field/

Regards

J-W

 

I had not seen these before, no, and thanks for bringing them to my attention! It is only becoming harder to figure out how I intend to finish this bird. I may just have to hunt down another box, as I would love to do an OD / NG for now and a natural metal down the road. Time will tell!

 

Thanks Again, Tweener

 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

On 5/21/2018 at 1:16 PM, JWM said:

A bit off topic - but still about O-47. Have you seen this interesting set of photos here:

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/north-american-o-47.42542/

There is nice drawing about the inside on page 2.

I am surprised for photos with late style insignia like here

 

BTW - where this photo could be taken? The plants on hills look a bit tropial.

As here also

 

On contrary - below the environment looks for Alaska 

 

Here is another interesting set...:

http://aviation.hawaii.gov/airfields-airports/oahu/bellows-field/photos-of-bellows-field/

Regards

J-W

 

The first two I’d definitely place in Hawaii, Caribbean, or the canal zone. The third could be Alaska but could be utah, Northern Nevada, Idaho, Eastern Washington state, or possibly New mexico ? 

Edited May 23, 2018 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[JWM]

In a link I gave in my previous input there is a couple of info about WWII service of O-47:

"O-47s did provide wartime service flying antisubmarine patrols along the US Atlantic coastline, being target tugs, serving in training and communication duties, and in general utility work. In January 1942, ten O-47s and their aircrews were placed aboard ships for transport to Singapore. They were to conduct coastal patrol and reconnaissance over the Malay Peninsula. Singapore fell before the aircraft arrived, and they were diverted to Australia where they spent the rest of the war. Other O-47s flew from bases in the Panama Canal Zone. I"

So also the Australia's ten are among those suspected to have tropic scene in photo, isn't?

J-W

 

[Tweener]

On 5/24/2018 at 2:06 AM, JWM said:

In a link I gave in my previous input there is a couple of info about WWII service of O-47:

"O-47s did provide wartime service flying antisubmarine patrols along the US Atlantic coastline, being target tugs, serving in training and communication duties, and in general utility work. In January 1942, ten O-47s and their aircrews were placed aboard ships for transport to Singapore. They were to conduct coastal patrol and reconnaissance over the Malay Peninsula. Singapore fell before the aircraft arrived, and they were diverted to Australia where they spent the rest of the war. Other O-47s flew from bases in the Panama Canal Zone. I"

So also the Australia's ten are among those suspected to have tropic scene in photo, isn't?

J-W

 

Quite possible. I have read some about the Australian birds, and how the crews sent to assemble them were diverted elsewhere, leaving their pilots, gunners, and cameramen to assemble the planes by themselves. Eventually all 10 were in the air where they were used until the supply of parts ran out and the last few aircraft were grounded. In that time, however, they were (at least briefly) the only recon planes in the whole of the area.