Converting a P-38F to a Lightning I

[Beard]

I have a yearning to make one of the three Lightning Is that were received by the RAF.

I understand that:

1) there didn't have superchargers turbochargers

2) the propellers both rotated to the right

3) the armament was different. (2 .50 & 2 .30 ?)

 

So, two questions:

1) Apart from the above, are there any other differences that would be really noticeable in 1/72?

2) is it do-able using the Airfix P-38F?

Edited May 5, 2018 by Beard
1) to correct spelling. 2) turbochargers, not superchargers.

[dogsbody]

RS Models did two RAF Lightnings.

 

http://rsmodels.cz/en/modely-letadel/plastikove-modely/1-72/92096/lightning-p-322-ii

 

http://rsmodels.cz/en/modely-letadel/plastikove-modely/1-72/92093/lightning-p-322-i

 

 

Chris

[Max Headroom]

I can’t be of immediate help but I recall that the U.K. IPMS magazine had a conversion article. This was pre 2000 and my copy went AWOL many years ago!

 

Maybe someone here has a copy?

 

Trevor

[Graham Boak]

Smaller radiators on the booms comes to mind, and would be consistent with the turbocharger resulting in more power, and hence a greater need for cooling. ( I believe that they did have single-stage superchargers, but may be incorrect.)

 

At some stage the gearing changed on the front of the Allison, which raised the thrust line.  I'm not sure when this happened, but think it was with the introduction of the turbocharger.

 

Anything is doable with enough work, but I don't think this one would be simple.  RS produce a Lightning Mk.I/P-322 which would make life much easier  (thank you DB for interrupting me as I typed this) and possibly leave you with a P-38F?

[Beard]

41 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

RS Models did two RAF Lightnings.

 

http://rsmodels.cz/en/modely-letadel/plastikove-modely/1-72/92096/lightning-p-322-ii

 

http://rsmodels.cz/en/modely-letadel/plastikove-modely/1-72/92093/lightning-p-322-i

 

 

Chris

Thanks Chris, I was aware of the RS kit but was hoping not to have to part with the wonga.

 

39 minutes ago, Max Headroom said:

I can’t be of immediate help but I recall that the U.K. IPMS magazine had a conversion article. This was pre 2000 and my copy went AWOL many years ago!

 

Maybe someone here has a copy?

 

Trevor

Hopefully, someone might have a copy they can scan.

 

37 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Smaller radiators on the booms comes to mind, and would be consistent with the turbocharger resulting in more power, and hence a greater need for cooling. ( I believe that they did have single-stage superchargers, but may be incorrect.)

 

At some stage the gearing changed on the front of the Allison, which raised the thrust line.  I'm not sure when this happened, but think it was with the introduction of the turbocharger.

 

Anything is doable with enough work, but I don't think this one would be simple.  RS produce a Lightning Mk.I/P-322 which would make life much easier  (thank you DB for interrupting me as I typed this) and possibly leave you with a P-38F?

Bum, I was hoping to avoid both hard work and parting with cash. I'll look into the RS Lightning I.

 

 

 

[Graham Boak]

I suspect that you will find that the RS kit, despite its lack of locating pins and short-run nature,  fits together better than the old Airfix P-38, and certainly lacks the dinner-plate rivets.  I've only finished a couple of RS kits to date, with a couple more on the way, but liked them considerably.  These were considerably simpler than a P-38, however.  (Although maybe not in the case of the parasol winged Arado Ar74.... but that suffered from some too-dark RLM 02 paint, which can't be blamed on RS, so perhaps comment is too early.)

[Beard]

2 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

I suspect that you will find that the RS kit, despite its lack of locating pins and short-run nature,  fits together better than the old Airfix P-38, and certainly lacks the dinner-plate rivets.  I've only finished a couple of RS kits to date, with a couple more on the way, but liked them considerably.  These were considerably simpler than a P-38, however.  (Although maybe not in the case of the parasol winged Arado Ar74.... but that suffered from some too-dark RLM 02 paint, which can't be blamed on RS, so perhaps comment is too early.)

I believe almost anything can be blamed on whoever manufactured the kit.

 

I have the RS Models Aircobra (aka Caribou) and, despite being a short-run kit, it looks like it'll go together easily enough; I'll have a look for some build reviews of their Lightning.

[dogsbody]

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Anything is doable with enough work, but I don't think this one would be simple.  RS produce a Lightning Mk.I/P-322 which would make life much easier  (thank you DB for interrupting me as I typed this) and possibly leave you with a P-38F?

 

You're welcome, Graham. Anytime I can be an annoyance, I'll be there for you.

 

Chris

[SleeperService]

I don't know about IPMS mag but there is an article in SAM about the RAF lightning. I'll have a dig. In the meantime THIS may interest Enzo's STGB build. 

 

EDIT: Scale Aircraft Modelling April 2003 Vol 25 No 2 The Lightning that nobody wanted!

 

[brewerjerry]

Hi

   Airfix magazine did an article on converting their F, yearsback 

  I will have a look i may still have it somewhere, but give me a few days

   i also have a 1:48 conversion set which i can send a photo of the ‘bits’  if it helps 

 

     this thread may interest you

http://www.rafcommands.com/archive/16215.php

 

in bowyers fighting colours he states he recorded/saw

 

  five P-322 aircraft in the UK and quotes the serials 

 

 

   cheers

     jerry

   

Edited May 5, 2018 by brewerjerry

[72modeler]

Here's my two cent's worth (I have no idea how many pence that is!) From the web sources I had access to, including Aerofiles, I was able to find out the following:

RAF received three Lightning I's; two .50cal and two .30cal guns, RH rotation V-1710-C15 non-turbocharged engines. Serials were AF-105-07. Not taken up and returned to the U.S. one in 1942 and the remaining two in 1943.

RAF received one Lightning II; serial AF221, no notes on armament; turbocharged V-1710F5L and F5RLH and RH rotation engines; also taken up by the AAF (I am guessing it would look like a P-38F externally.)

It appears the Lightning I's serialled AE978 and 979 never left the United States, but there are photos of them in RAF colors and wearing RAF serials on the Lockheed ramp.

 

Graham and Beard are correct, I think, that using the RS Models 322 Lightning kit would be the way to go- I don't have that RS boxing, but from the sprue shots and box art I have seen, it does appear to have the correct smaller radiators, oil cooler inlets on the lower cowlings, as well as the correct armament fit, exhaust and downdraft carburetor  air scoop on top of the nacelles. See if this helps.

Mike

Edited May 6, 2018 by 72modeler
corrected spelling

[Steve N]

I did this conversion using the venerable Airfix kit some years ago.  By far the most challenging aspect of the conversion was rebuilding the engine nacelles.  As mentioned above, the P-322/Lightning I used the "long nose" Allison engines, which means the props have to be lowered and moved a bit forward.  The chin intakes were also differently shaped than the early P-38s.  I rebuilt the nacelles using styrene tube and miliput.  I didn't have any drawings, I just "eyeballed" it using photos.  We're on the road at the moment, but I'll post photos when we get home.

 

SN

[stevehnz]

4 hours ago, brewerjerry said:

Hi

   Airfix magazine did an article on converting their F, yearsback 

  I will have a look i may still have it somewhere, but give me a few days

   i also have a 1:48 conversion set which i can send a photo of the ‘bits’  if it helps 

 

     this thread may interest you

http://www.rafcommands.com/archive/16215.php

 

in bowyers fighting colours he states he recorded/saw

 

  five P-322 aircraft in the UK and quotes the serials 

 

 

   cheers

     jerry

   

I'm pleased Jerry put his hand up first, saves me digging out my cartons of old Airfix mags. A quick search on the aeroflight contents listing suggests Jan 74 might be the one.

Steve.

[72modeler]

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 2:59 PM, Graham Boak said:

Smaller radiators on the booms comes to mind, and would be consistent with the turbocharger resulting in more power, and hence a greater need for cooling. ( I believe that they did have single-stage superchargers, but may be incorrect.)

 

At some stage the gearing changed on the front of the Allison, which raised the thrust line.  I'm not sure when this happened, but think it was with the introduction of the turbocharger.

 

Anything is doable with enough work, but I don't think this one would be simple.  RS produce a Lightning Mk.I/P-322 which would make life much easier  (thank you DB for interrupting me as I typed this) and possibly leave you with a P-38F?

You are correct, Graham. The Allison V-1710 C-series engines had a longer gearcase and were used on P-40B/C and P-38E/F/G/H airframes. The V-1710 F-series engines had a shorter gear reduction case, had a higher thrust line, and were used on P-40D/E/K/M/N and P-38J/L/M airplanes. The long gearcase was used as it allowed greater streamlining; the change in reduction gearcase wasn't made due to turbosupercharger installation, as all of the early C-series Lightnings with the exception of the 322's had turbosuperchargers to begin with.

Mike

Edited May 10, 2018 by 72modeler
corrected information

[Beard]

Thanks for all of your replies Gentleman, I shall look for a RS Lightning and rid myself of the Airfix one (after pinching the drop tanks to use on a RAF Thunderbolt.).

Edited May 6, 2018 by Beard
to correct spelling.

[brewerjerry]

On 5/5/2018 at 4:56 PM, 72modeler said:

Here's my two cent's worth (I have no idea how many pence that is!) From the web sources I had access to, including Aerofiles, I was able to find out the following:

RAF received three Lightning I's; two .50cal and two .30cal guns, RH rotation V-1710-C15 non-turbocharged engines. Serials were AF-105-07. Not taken up and returned to the U.S. one in 1942 and the remaining two in 1943.

RAF received one Lightning II; serial AF221, no notes on armament; turbocharged V-1710F5L and F5RLH and RH rotation engines; also taken up by the AAF (I am guessing it would look like a P-38F externally.)

It appears the Lightning I's serialled AE978 and 979 never left the United States, but there are photos of them in RAF colors and wearing RAF serials on the Lockheed ramp.

 

Graham and Beard are correct, I think, that using the RS Models 322 Lightning kit would be the way to go- I don't have that RS boxing, but from the sprue shots and box art I have seen, it does appear to have the correct smaller radiators, oil cooler inlets on the lower cowlings, as well as the correct armament fit, exhaust and downdraft carburetor  air scoop on top of the nacelles. See if this helps.

Mike

Hi  

    interesting that AF221 came to UK

     there are photos of her here in the torpedo fit in the usa

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/was-the-p-38-lightning-ever-fitted-with-torpedoes.42788/

 

   it must have crossed the pond twice 

   cheers

      jerry

[Max Headroom]

Looking at the photos (the head on one at least), I’ve noticed that the propellers rotate in different directions. I thought the P-322 didn’t have handed engines?

 

Was it retrofitted?

 

Trevor

[Ossington 2]

667 Lightnings were scheduled for delivery.

AE978 to AF104 were diverted before delivery, remaining in the States

AF105

AF106

AF107

arrived in Britain, were examined and returned to USAAF 1/7/43, 10/7/43 and 2/12/42 respectively. Anyone know where they were stored after testing but before being passed over?

AF108 to AF744 again remained in the States.

 

AF221 was a Lightning II (more like an early US Lightning) it flew at least once in RAF markings (I have a photo somewhere) but, having not been paid for, remained in the States whereupon Lockheed painted over the roundels with stars and used it for torpedo testing etc.

 

[brewerjerry]

Hi

   strange,  as it is interesting that bowyer in flying colours, states having seen AE978 & AE979 in the UK

  normally he is reliable, but maybe not in this case 

   i wonder what the a/c movement cards show ? 

  or what he actually saw ? 

   cheers

      jerry

 

P.S.

      seems he may have been right this website gives dates and movement 

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/20141

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/20142

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/20143

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/20144

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/20145

  cheers

     jerry

   

Edited May 9, 2018 by brewerjerry
extra info

[Cookenbacher]

Hi Simon, here is a link to my build of an RS P-38E, but it looks like my Photobucket patch is no longer working. The main problem I found with the kit is that the nose gear bay and cockpit won't fit together in the central cupola. I ended up removing the top of the gear bay to allow the cockpit to fit. The @TheRealMrEd also built the RS P-38E and mentioned the same issues. Also, the pieces that form the intakes on the underside of the nacelles are flipped left for right in the instructions. Otherwise, it builds like typical short run kit.

 

Here's a pic of the notch removed from the gear bay, and the cockpit rested on top of it. The hole where the nose gear attaches can stay in place, so you don't have to worry about modifying the gear leg.

 

This kinda shows the cowling intake parts on the underside of the booms.

 

I had to shave one side down to get it to fit, and the had to add a plasticard shim to the other, only then realizing that they would have fit fine if they had been switched .

Of course the RAF kits may have different parts here anyway.

[Work In Progress]

16 hours ago, Max Headroom said:

Looking at the photos (the head on one at least), I’ve noticed that the propellers rotate in different directions. I thought the P-322 didn’t have handed engines?

 

Was it retrofitted?

Do we know for a fact that the two pictures are of the same airframe?

That said, in the airborne pic it also appears to have turbochargers. If that's the case then it seems o have had significant rework back into a more conventional P-38 configuration

[occa]

2 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

Do we know for a fact that the two pictures are of the same airframe?

That said, in the airborne pic it also appears to have turbochargers. If that's the case then it seems o have had significant rework back into a more conventional P-38 configuration

The streaking comes from the exhausts that are located  roughly at the same place where the superchargers were on the US models.

 

Both British Lightning I and II didn't have superchargers.

[Work In Progress]

Every Allison V-1710, including those fitted to the Lightning I, was supercharged. What the Lightning I versions of the engine didn't have was turbochargers in addition to the existing mechanically-driven superchargers. Similar deal with the P-40, P-39 and P-51 Allisons - all supercharged, but with single stage superchargers, so performance fell off quickly above around 12,000 feet. Rolls Royce went down the route of two-stage mechaniically driven superchargers, whereas Allison preferred a turbocharger to supplement the single-stage mechanical supercharger for high altitude use. But they were hampered by military purchasing authorities not ordering them - the Aif Ministry ordering the Lightning without turbos, and the USAAF ordering the P-39 without a turbo.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Work In Progress

[Graham Boak]

Re Allison being "hindered" because of the P-39, this is largely because as a new technology still at low production rates there simply wasn't enough of them to go around, and with the P-38 (and perhaps later P-47) promising much as high altitude interceptors, the P-39 was looking a poor third.  The RAF Lightning order is rather different: the French ordered them without the turbocharger to maintain compatibility (and hence ease of supply, training etc.s) with their P-40s.  As I understand it the RAF inherited them from the French order, rather than the AM wanting them that way.  Given the AM's drive towards ever-higher altitudes, this would have been very odd.  There remains some doubt as to whether Arnold would have permitted export to either country of what was seen as a great US technological advantage, in much demand for the US itself and not very high supply.

[72modeler]

4 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Re Allison being "hindered" because of the P-39, this is largely because as a new technology still at low production rates there simply wasn't enough of them to go around, and with the P-38 (and perhaps later P-47) promising much as high altitude interceptors, the P-39 was looking a poor third.  The RAF Lightning order is rather different: the French ordered them without the turbocharger to maintain compatibility (and hence ease of supply, training etc.s) with their P-40s.  As I understand it the RAF inherited them from the French order, rather than the AM wanting them that way.  Given the AM's drive towards ever-higher altitudes, this would have been very odd.  There remains some doubt as to whether Arnold would have permitted export to either country of what was seen as a great US technological advantage, in much demand for the US itself and not very high supply.

You are correct, sir! With the B-17, B-24, B-29, P-47, and P-38, GE had a very hard time meeting the demand for turbosuperchargers, especially early in the war before production could be ramped up.

Mike