The Real Color Debacle

[Steve Noble]

1 hour ago, Gav G said:

Do you work for eBay customer services by any chance?

 

If you'd have bothered to read the many other posts where he said "AK had told him it would be OK" and then they completely ignored him (including deleting the YouTube video and the associated comments where they stated this) then you might not come across so poorly.

I personally don't care who had told me it would be ok, I'd still have done a test thin, still have done a test spray and still wouldn't have pre-thinned 8 bottles in advance!! Never trust anyone, and yes, that includes the manufacturer, because they are renowned for not always telling the truth..

[shaunfletcher]

I find all this most confusing, as I use X-20A with realcolor (seemed the obvious choice them being the same bottles and smell as Tamiya Acrylics which was a big hint) with complete success from the get go.. it does need a lot of thinner to spray because it is very richly pigmented, but it sprays and brushes well and settles to a perfect finish.

[GazB]

2 hours ago, shaunfletcher said:

I find all this most confusing, as I use X-20A with realcolor (seemed the obvious choice them being the same bottles and smell as Tamiya Acrylics which was a big hint) with complete success from the get go.. it does need a lot of thinner to spray because it is very richly pigmented, but it sprays and brushes well and settles to a perfect finish.

I recently tried adding some of the AK thinner to the bottles I had thinned with the X-20A. Previously, it did start to spray a little with the X-20A, but it needed a LOT. However, I saw one of their videos where they were mixing the two thinners together with pre-thinned paints, so it is somewhat compatible. I still pre-thin with their thinner, but often add a few more drops to the cup after to get it spraying properly.

 

Gaz

[BrokenWorlds]

I'm really confused about AK's real color brand and hoping someone can help me out here.

 

I picked up a 4 pack of real colors to try since I wanted to find something easier to airbrush than Vallejo's stuff which I've been getting lots of small problems with. Ended up watching one of Flory's videos on AK real color and saw him thinning it with everything but the kitchen sink. Paint arrived today and I started some brush tests to see how it performed with various thinners. The moment Vallejo (https://youtu.be/kvEwxVcY3TE?t=1700 in the video it works fine) thinner touched the paint it turned to latex goop. Same thing with tap water and Tamiya X20A. I  was able to thin it with rubbing alcohol but nothing else will interact with it without it tearing it's self apart like a family on Jeremy Kyle.

Any one have a clue what's going on please? I'm getting completely different paint reactions from what I'm seeing in videos. Have AK sent different stuff to the media people than we're getting in retail?

[GazB]

1 hour ago, BrokenWorlds said:

I'm really confused about AK's real color brand and hoping someone can help me out here.

 

I picked up a 4 pack of real colors to try since I wanted to find something easier to airbrush than Vallejo's stuff which I've been getting lots of small problems with. Ended up watching one of Flory's videos on AK real color and saw him thinning it with everything but the kitchen sink. Paint arrived today and I started some brush tests to see how it performed with various thinners. The moment Vallejo (https://youtu.be/kvEwxVcY3TE?t=1700 in the video it works fine) thinner touched the paint it turned to latex goop. Same thing with tap water and Tamiya X20A. I  was able to thin it with rubbing alcohol but nothing else will interact with it without it tearing it's self apart like a family on Jeremy Kyle.

Any one have a clue what's going on please? I'm getting completely different paint reactions from what I'm seeing in videos. Have AK sent different stuff to the media people than we're getting in retail?

I was in the same boat as you when I first got them. I was told by AK themselves that X-20A will work. I think it can but it takes a loooot of thinner. Only thing that did work for me is the Real Color thinner, and it still takes a lot. I pre thin in the jar. With Tamiya and Hobby Aqueous filling the jar near the top with thinner is sufficient. Real Color needs that and then some. Also avoid trying to clean out an airbrush with water after using it. It just gunks up. Again, their thinner works best out of what I have to clean through.

 

Real Color paint seems to be very thick. A jar I pre thinned is still very goopy and trying to transfer it via pipette is a bit of a struggle since it either doesn't suck it up well or doesn't squirt it back out again. 

 

It does give good coverage and dries almost instantly, and most of their colours seem accurate, but it's a bit of a pain in the thinning front. Wasn't until they released their air line up that they actually mentioned thinning ratios.

 

But yeah. Try their thinner or a lacquer thinner. Just be aware of the smell of you spray it.

 

Gaz

[BrokenWorlds]

I can thin it okay with alcohol. I'm more curious why people are getting such wildly different results. Any idea what's going on?

[GazB]

21 minutes ago, BrokenWorlds said:

I can thin it okay with alcohol. I'm more curious why people are getting such wildly different results. Any idea what's going on?

It is pretty weird. They thinned it with water in an AK vid with seemingly no issues as well, but the stuff goops up if you do. It created a solid mass in my airbrush once trying to clean with water. When I messaged AK about issues like these they ignored my emails.

 

A little while after they deleted a video and released it again, I think with updated info, and also changed the info for the paint on their site.

 

No idea what was going on. Possible they were trying to sell it as some kind of works with all wonder paint but couldn't get it to match with that in reality. 

 

Gaz

[BrokenWorlds]

Didn't get an e mail back from them either. I would what kind of a fuss could be made. I'm sure trading standards would be interested in knowing their videos don't match up to their real paints. Not usually the type to do that kind of thing but being completely ignored after seeing videos made by people they sponsored working completely different to the reality gets my back up. Maybe worth considering if a few people are up for complaining about it, it's false advertising at a minimum. Maybe they have quality control issues or something and want to sweep it under the rug.

 

Time to go find some other airbrush friendly paints that spray better than vallejo air and don't kill anything that breathes them in after a week of drying

[fewr9fkr9595]

Bought some myself (all US modern greys) along with their thinner to mess around with as quite interested to see what all the fuss is about...

[Pigpen]

Well I've bought some of this stuff by accident. At the end of my tether trying to identify suitable Vallejo Model Air colours for my south east Asia Skyraider I looked for a simple set to buy and came across the one from AK that has only the four colours I needed rather than a load more from Vallejo that I don't. Except in my hurry I ordered and picked up the Real Colors (sic)* tubs rather than eye dropper style acrylic ones.

 

So I looked at this thread and as a result I planned to take them back as I didn't want to spend ten quid on AK's own thinner or risk cellulose in my nice H&S airbrush. But then I damaged the box, and well, it's not really on to expect the shop to take back damaged good when the mistake was mine in the first place. So I though I'd try IPA as suggested by some contributors.

 

This "Camouflage Grey" ** appeared separated in the tub but soon homogenised with a quick stir; it also looked a bit yellow rather than gray. It seemed really quite thin, and I was tempted to try it neat, but the idea was to test whether IPA was a viable thinner. I transferred a few drops to a mixing pallet with a cocktail stick like I do with enamels and added a drop of IPA..... It stirred in well with no obvious ill effects so I added some more. Well it drank the stuff! Perhaps this was simply my impression but it took quite a lot to get a consistency that I was familiar with. 

 

So into the cheapo Chinese copy airbrush that I use as a basic spraygun and off we go. I sprayed a drop tank (I've got a spare!) previously primed with Ultimate primer and initial impression was that it wasn't covering or even really coming out of the brush. I'm pretty agricultural when it comes to spraying and I'd started at 20 psi but for some reason I'd chosen a 0.2mm needle and the garage was very cold which I find has an effect. So I wound up to 30 psi (and remember that's the reading on my compressor's gauge - it's never been calibrated). 

 

Well it went on lovely, dried quickly to a smooth opaque finish and I was really quite impressed. I haven't had the chance to mask and peel or cover with my favourite varnish and weathering combinations but not the car crash I was expecting.

 

Now for cleanup. I filled the cup with neat IPA just to be on the safe side while I cleaned out the eyedropper with the same. Emptied out the cup, gave it a wipe and then filled with my usual half and half IPA / water flushing combination. Instant gloopy mess with wriggly worms of paint suspended in the cleaning fluid. I quickly tipped it away and blasted through loads of IPS plus Ultimate airbrush cleaner to no obvious Ill effect.

 

So my take-home message is:

• You can thin with IPA - whether cellulose or their own thinner is better I have no idea.
• IPA and Ultimate cleaner are fine for clean up
• It really does not like water!
• Subject to experience I'm really quite impressed

Anyway my two-pennyworth. 

 

 

 

 

 

*I understand AK Interactive are a Spanish company so it should be colours in deference to their European neighbours.  I'd accept colors from a Latin American manufacturer. But really, standards don't ya know.

 

** Yes, AK refer to USAF Camouflage Gray as Camouflage Grey on their packaging. ***

 

***Of course all the above pedantry utterly disregards the small matter that I can speak, read and write the language of cats worse than almost every Spanish person I've ever met can converse in English......

Edited November 11, 2019 by Pigpen
Missing comma

[GazB]

Might as well drop this here instead of starting a new thread. 

 

Anyone know if the Real Color compatibility thinner can thin Mr Color lacquers? I know you can just get the levelling thinner, but I was hoping for a less smelly alternative to maybe trying some of the lacquer gloss coats (depending on how stinky the actual Mr Color paints themselves are).

 

Cheers

 

Gaz

[alt-92]

On 12/1/2022 at 5:45 PM, GazB said:

Mr Color lacquers?

The C-xxx ones, or the H-xxx ones? Just asking to be sure, they do get lumped together sometimes.

[GazB]

33 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

The C-xxx ones, or the H-xxx ones? Just asking to be sure, they do get lumped together sometimes.

The C ones

 

Gaz

[Trenton guy]

Found this thread while looking for info on why AK Real Color seems to be disappearing from the marketplace. One source said it has been withdrawn for reformulation. Based on many negative experiences recorded here, it is no wonder. Interestingly, I have used it with no problem at all. I did use their thinner, which I always do when trying a new to me paint. My only complaint was that it seemed slightly more likely to clog the airbrush tip than my “go to” Gunze Mr Color. 
 

as I understand it, acrylic refers to the pigment. It can be “carried” by a number of different “vehicles”. Any thinner needs to be compatible with the vehicle. Compatibility with the pigment is not the issue. Hence “acrylic” tells one nothing regarding the appropriate thinner. The type of vehicle does.

There are three types know to me, water, alcohol, and lacquer (some times called cellulose in the UK, I think). Can’t imagine any good coming from dumping water or alcohol into lacquer. Mr Color is a lacquer based acrylic just like AK so the thinners (Mr Color Thinner and Mr Color Levelling Thinner) are compatible, in my experience. Gunze “aqueous” is not lacquer based nor the standard Tamiya X range so their thinners, ie. X-20, are not compatible.

The newish Tamiya Lacquers are acrylic lacquers as their TS sprays have always been.

So, does anyone know when AK Real Color is coming back? Some of their colors seemed quite well matched and I really liked their supporting books.

[Casey]

1 hour ago, Trenton guy said:

as I understand it, acrylic refers to the pigment.

Paints have 3 main components: pigments, binders and solvents.

 

Pigments are same between all paints (with minor exceptions) and are the reason why paint have color.

 

Binders are substances that glue pigment to surface. It can be acrylic resin, it can be alkyd, it can even be gum arabic if you want to make watercolor paint. It is what keeps pigment where it should stay.

 

Solvents make the binder/pigment mix more fluid to make it, well, a paint. It can be water, alcohol, oil and many other substances.

 

Acrylic does not equal water. You can have acrylic lacquers. If you for example add a lacquer thinner to unthinned water based paint you basically force it to become acrylic lacquer (with more or less success...). But the chemistry becomes unpredictable and without knowledge of what is in the paint those experiments are trial and error.

Edited January 17 by Casey

[Andrés S.]

On 05/05/2018 at 20:35, GazB said:

Well now, this is interesting.

 

I sent an email to Ultimate Modelling Products about this, this is the response:

 

"Hi Gaz

 

Unfortunately, you’ve been misinformed by AK and others!

 

This paint is NOTHING like Tamiya or Gunze.  It is in fact a total lacquer based paint, which needs cellulose thinners for thinning I’m afraid.  We’ve tested them extensively.

 

AK have in fact changed their packaging now to say you need cellulose thinners and not acrylic!  Shows how much research they did!

 

All the best

 

Lee Larholt

Director"

 

I am pretty ticked off right now 😡

 

AKI straight up mislead me and now I'm out paint, thinner and money. 

 

Gaz

 

AK RC's thinner is called highly compatible, which means that, in addition to working for its own paints, which is obviously logical, it works with other types of paints. In fact, I do dilute the Tamiya and the Gunze with the AK thinner and I can tell you that this thinner gives these paints properties that seem to me to be much superior to those made by the other ones. their own brands. Therefore, since I did a test, and this is what you should have done before, it is the only thinner I use for these 3 brands (until then I used the Tamiya yellow cap for both Tamiya and Gunze). In any case, you should have asked AK who is the manufacturer and as such better than anyone else his own products and not an intermediary like you did, who surely has not inquired anything about a product that he neither knows nor has manufactured.

[dogsbody]

My thinner collection:

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Hunker]

For what it's worth, I only have one AK real colour, the raf dark earth.

Tried mixing with x20a, ending up with 5parts thinner to 1part paint and it still wouldn't spray properly.

Tried my tamiya mix of 33% IPA 66% water and still wouldn't spray properly.

Tried 99% IPA 1 to1 with paint and it sprayed beautifully, cleanly and with no overspray on the edges, much better than any Tamiya or Mr Hobby paint has and they are great paints to spray. And this with a Sparmax .2 needled airbrush.

From this I deduced that AK Real Colors don't like water, since even x20a is more than half water.

So for anyone looking for a cheap thinner that works, try straight IPA

 

[GazB]

17 hours ago, Andrés S. said:

 

AK RC's thinner is called highly compatible, which means that, in addition to working for its own paints, which is obviously logical, it works with other types of paints. In fact, I do dilute the Tamiya and the Gunze with the AK thinner and I can tell you that this thinner gives these paints properties that seem to me to be much superior to those made by the other ones. their own brands. Therefore, since I did a test, and this is what you should have done before, it is the only thinner I use for these 3 brands (until then I used the Tamiya yellow cap for both Tamiya and Gunze). In any case, you should have asked AK who is the manufacturer and as such better than anyone else his own products and not an intermediary like you did, who surely has not inquired anything about a product that he neither knows nor has manufactured.

 

8 hours ago, Hunker said:

For what it's worth, I only have one AK real colour, the raf dark earth.

Tried mixing with x20a, ending up with 5parts thinner to 1part paint and it still wouldn't spray properly.

Tried my tamiya mix of 33% IPA 66% water and still wouldn't spray properly.

Tried 99% IPA 1 to1 with paint and it sprayed beautifully, cleanly and with no overspray on the edges, much better than any Tamiya or Mr Hobby paint has and they are great paints to spray. And this with a Sparmax .2 needled airbrush.

From this I deduced that AK Real Colors don't like water, since even x20a is more than half water.

So for anyone looking for a cheap thinner that works, try straight IPA

 

Andres, I originally asked on the AK Youtube Channel specifically advertising the product, and the video at that time mentioned acrylic thinner and water as being able to thin it. I asked the question to confirm, and was told yes. Only later, after I did testing, did I discover this did not work. X-20A would just thin it, but inconsistently and it required a lot. When I emailed them about this, they ultimately ignored it, and later took down the video and reuploaded it minus the mentions of water and X-20A. 

 

Hunker, yeah, when I originally tried using water for cleaning it just turned into pure gunk. 

 

I ended up with the high compatibility thinner in the end and it did work, but it was the entire issue around the false advertising, and confirming the bad advice in the video, that was the original issue. It played out again with AK 3rd Gen, which still to this day never sprays as well as shown no matter how much I thin it. 

 

Gaz

[colin]

I have tried the AK 3rd Gen for brush painting, and although they thin well with water with added flow improver and brush reasonably well,  their nowhere as good, imho, as Vallejo. They seem to dry far to quickly even when on a wet pallet 

[TheKinksFan]

On 19/01/2024 at 08:59, GazB said:

Andres, I originally asked on the AK Youtube Channel specifically advertising the product, and the video at that time mentioned acrylic thinner and water as being able to thin it. I asked the question to confirm, and was told yes. Only later, after I did testing, did I discover this did not work. X-20A would just thin it, but inconsistently and it required a lot. When I emailed them about this, they ultimately ignored it, and later took down the video and reuploaded it minus the mentions of water and X-20A. 

The original formula of the paint was different, it was in fact possible to thin it & airbrush it with water based thinners like Vallejo's or Tamiya's X-20A.

This video review from Florymodels is from 2017: https://youtu.be/kvEwxVcY3TE?si=6MMVMGXeT1yFBKrc

I am sure there are other videos as well from other modellers. But for some reason AK decided to change the formula, but told no one that the paint is now compatible only with lacquer thinners. I could have been so easy to use the social media to inform customers that the formula is now different. Like you say they just removed the original mention of water, and afterwards pretended that there never was an earlier formula. I can imagine the confusion when some of the paints a modeller has are of the earlier kind and others the later formula, if trying to thin the latter with X-20A  or something containing water. There's nothing in the jars to differentiate them from each other.

 

I have a very low opinion of AK Interactive as a company, although their products can be good.

[Phantome]

On 1/17/2024 at 4:38 PM, Trenton guy said:

Found this thread while looking for info on why AK Real Color seems to be disappearing from the marketplace. One source said it has been withdrawn for reformulation. Based on many negative experiences recorded here, it is no wonder. Interestingly, I have used it with no problem at all. I did use their thinner, which I always do when trying a new to me paint. My only complaint was that it seemed slightly more likely to clog the airbrush tip than my “go to” Gunze Mr Color. 
 

as I understand it, acrylic refers to the pigment. It can be “carried” by a number of different “vehicles”. Any thinner needs to be compatible with the vehicle. Compatibility with the pigment is not the issue. Hence “acrylic” tells one nothing regarding the appropriate thinner. The type of vehicle does.

There are three types know to me, water, alcohol, and lacquer (some times called cellulose in the UK, I think). Can’t imagine any good coming from dumping water or alcohol into lacquer. Mr Color is a lacquer based acrylic just like AK so the thinners (Mr Color Thinner and Mr Color Levelling Thinner) are compatible, in my experience. Gunze “aqueous” is not lacquer based nor the standard Tamiya X range so their thinners, ie. X-20, are not compatible.

The newish Tamiya Lacquers are acrylic lacquers as their TS sprays have always been.

So, does anyone know when AK Real Color is coming back? Some of their colors seemed quite well matched and I really liked their supporting books.

 

What sources have said that AK is being withdrawn? I see it in stock pretty much everywhere.

 

I'm quite a big fan of them and they now account for the bulk of my color collection. There are some stinkers (stay away from their WW2 Luftwaffe stuff) but their RAF colors are for the most part excellent and far better than the new Gunze Mr Hobby formulas which are a massive disappointment in my book. Their modern USAF colors are also spot on and they probably have the most accurate Dark/Light Ghost Greys I've seen since the now discontinued Model Master. Also huge selection of modern RAL colors which is a rarity in most paint brands. Their Olive Drab 41 is also amazing, the best I've seen since the old Gunze H78, also sadly brutalized in their new formula (new H52 is closer though).

 

 

Edited January 21 by Phantome

[GazB]

On 1/20/2024 at 9:35 AM, TheKinksFan said:

The original formula of the paint was different, it was in fact possible to thin it & airbrush it with water based thinners like Vallejo's or Tamiya's X-20A.

This video review from Florymodels is from 2017: https://youtu.be/kvEwxVcY3TE?si=6MMVMGXeT1yFBKrc

I am sure there are other videos as well from other modellers. But for some reason AK decided to change the formula, but told no one that the paint is now compatible only with lacquer thinners. I could have been so easy to use the social media to inform customers that the formula is now different. Like you say they just removed the original mention of water, and afterwards pretended that there never was an earlier formula. I can imagine the confusion when some of the paints a modeller has are of the earlier kind and others the later formula, if trying to thin the latter with X-20A  or something containing water. There's nothing in the jars to differentiate them from each other.

 

I have a very low opinion of AK Interactive as a company, although their products can be good.

 

I never realised they had changed the formula from the original. I got some of the paints quite early on, and did my usual task of filling up the jars with thinner so I didn't have to faff about with the pipette each time (I do that for all of my Tamiya, Aqueous), but since I added X-20A as I was told would work, it had no effect). One saving grace is that you can just add the high compatibility thinner to those original mixes now and it should still work. But it cost me those paints at the time, plus the thinner used on them. Something else they did that was a pet peeve of mine was completely change one of their colours. FS34102 became a staple alternative colour for my NATO vehicles as other NATO greens were far too dark (I still couldn't understand how people were getting such bright greens with Mig Ammo/Meng etc when those NATO greens are super dark). Tamiya's NATO green seemed to change its hue to something darker, almost blue tinted. FS34102 with the clear cap was a good replacement for a vibrant green as often seen in photographs (AKs NATO Green is the Bundeswehr colour, and not correct for U.S. tri-tone), and then they went and made it part of the air series instead (specifically the South East Asia scheme) and the tone was totally changed and thus no longer suitable. I was lucky to order two jars of FS34102 with the clear cap after confirming with a store, but likely no more exist to replace when gone. It also seems like they stopped adding colours to the range all together, and went all in on 3G (which doesn't work for me beyond brush painting small details).

 

Gaz

[colin]

I don't think Tamiya do a Aqueous range do they, do you mean Gunze 

[Phantome]

9 hours ago, GazB said:

 

I never realised they had changed the formula from the original. I got some of the paints quite early on, and did my usual task of filling up the jars with thinner so I didn't have to faff about with the pipette each time (I do that for all of my Tamiya, Aqueous), but since I added X-20A as I was told would work, it had no effect). One saving grace is that you can just add the high compatibility thinner to those original mixes now and it should still work. But it cost me those paints at the time, plus the thinner used on them. Something else they did that was a pet peeve of mine was completely change one of their colours. FS34102 became a staple alternative colour for my NATO vehicles as other NATO greens were far too dark (I still couldn't understand how people were getting such bright greens with Mig Ammo/Meng etc when those NATO greens are super dark). Tamiya's NATO green seemed to change its hue to something darker, almost blue tinted. FS34102 with the clear cap was a good replacement for a vibrant green as often seen in photographs (AKs NATO Green is the Bundeswehr colour, and not correct for U.S. tri-tone), and then they went and made it part of the air series instead (specifically the South East Asia scheme) and the tone was totally changed and thus no longer suitable. I was lucky to order two jars of FS34102 with the clear cap after confirming with a store, but likely no more exist to replace when gone. It also seems like they stopped adding colours to the range all together, and went all in on 3G (which doesn't work for me beyond brush painting small details).

 

Gaz

 

I bought a recent bottle of Tamiya's NATO Green and it looked spot on for the US version, and none of the blue tint that you mention. That said, I agree that AK's looks more like the Bundeswehr color which is darker.