The Real Color Debacle

[Steve Noble]

4 minutes ago, azureglo said:

Could you expand on this? "Destroy" seems a strong word. For instance I have been using pre thinned paint (Mr Color+Levelling, some of it made up 5 years ago), Mr Paint is acrylic based paint pre thinned with cellulose thinner (it says so on the bottle!) and all aerosols paints are " pre thinned" and so for that matter is Alclad. Is this just your feeling/opinion or is there any evidence you've based this on that you could share? 

 

Cheers

 

Anil

I have found from my own personal experience that when you pre-thin the paint and/or put thinned paint back into the bottle/container, the paint and thinner separate and I end up with a weak paint mixture. Mixing it up again doesn't help and the paint then doesn't seem to cover well and is semi translucent. If you like to pre-thin your paints then that's fine. I just prefer to mix what I need when I need it and use what I mix..

[Mike]

For me, the biggest clue is the phrase "acrylic lacquer", which is IIRC what they call Gunze and Tamiya paints.  They thin with their own thinner for Japanese health & safety concerns, but work best with cellulose, namely Mr Levelling Thinner by Gunze.  I'd be loathed to thin them with anything else TBH, and pouring a load of untested thinners into a brand new paint pot seems a bit.... reckless?  Don't wish to offend anyone, but a quick test with a teeny bit of paint would have been much less frivolous and wasteful, whilst reaching the same conclusion.  The instructions do mention not to use latex-based thinners, which I think covers Xtracrylix, AK standard paints, AMMO and I suspect Vallejo and a few others.  I reserve the right to be wrong about all of the above, as it's just anecdotal accumulated "knowledge".

[dogsbody]

So, Mike, if and when I get my backside in gear and attempt to use my airbrush, should I use X-20A to thin my Tamiya XF paints, or should I use the Tamiya Lacquer thinner?

 

 

Chris

[azureglo]

23 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

So, Mike, if and when I get my backside in gear and attempt to use my airbrush, should I use X-20A to thin my Tamiya XF paints, or should I use the Tamiya Lacquer thinner?

 

 

Chris

At the risk of butting in,   you can use either, but the try the lacquer thinner first: The lacquer thinner especially if its the "leveling" version is a thing of joy like mr leveling thinner and does wonderful things to Tamiya  XF.  The non leveling thinner is just bog standard cellulose thinner in very expensive bottle but works OK.

 

You  might find this useful too:

 

https://web.ipmsusa3.org/content/lacquer-thinner

 

[azureglo]

@GazB I can see why you thought the Tamiya X20 type thinner might work, AK were a bit vague on their site stating:

 

"Can be diluted with our own specific thinner or the ones from other brands and types: acrylic lacquer (non-vinyl), lacquer thinner, alcohol, water..."

 

Now as @Mike said lacquer thinner and IPA type thinners are poles apart and why AK would hint both might work is a mystery and misled you and probably a lot of others. What makes it even more confusing is most aqueous paints love cellulose thinners.

 

Anyhoo, hopefully all the replies have given you clarity but try using their own (probably bog standard cellulose thinner) or Mr Leveling thinner as an experiment (it works miracles with any lacquer and most aqueous e.g. Mr Hobby Tamyia XF)

[dogsbody]

Thanks, azureglo. Yep, I've got the Tamiya Lacquer thinner and will be using it, in my airbrush tests.

 

 

 

 

Chris

[azureglo]

5 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

Thanks, azureglo. Yep, I've got the Tamiya Lacquer thinner and will be using it, in my airbrush tests.

 

Chris

Hey Chris

 

What about trying with some of this and letting us know how you get on? Its supposed to be for bushing but may the key to a cheap Mr Leveling when mixed with ordinary cheap lacquer thinner 

 

http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/87198/index.htm

 

cheers

 

Anil

[dogsbody]

I've got this, but you think the Lacquer Retarder would be better?

 

http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/87114paint_retarder/index.htm

 

 

Chris

[GazB]

23 hours ago, azureglo said:

@GazB I can see why you thought the Tamiya X20 type thinner might work, AK were a bit vague on their site stating:

 

"Can be diluted with our own specific thinner or the ones from other brands and types: acrylic lacquer (non-vinyl), lacquer thinner, alcohol, water..."

 

Now as @Mike said lacquer thinner and IPA type thinners are poles apart and why AK would hint both might work is a mystery and misled you and probably a lot of others. What makes it even more confusing is most aqueous paints love cellulose thinners.

 

Anyhoo, hopefully all the replies have given you clarity but try using their own (probably bog standard cellulose thinner) or Mr Leveling thinner as an experiment (it works miracles with any lacquer and most aqueous e.g. Mr Hobby Tamyia XF)

Cheers, azureglo (^-^)7

 

But yeah, AK didn't do a good job getting their info straight.

 

Gaz

[colin]

On 5/6/2018 at 9:15 AM, Steve Noble said:

You need some of these paint mixing pots. They are metal so can be cleaned with thinners and used over and over. Perfect for mixing all paints, just add thinners with a pipette, then add paint and mix together. Transfer to airbrush cup, takes seconds and properly mixed paint every time. Very useful item...

 

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10350654

Your better off saving the plastic milk bottle tops, clean them and then use for mixing. I've had those metal ones and mine started to rust. Could be they were a inferior product to the ones shown though

[azureglo]

On 12/4/2018 at 8:09 PM, dogsbody said:

I've got this, but you think the Lacquer Retarder would be better?

 

http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/87114paint_retarder/index.htm

 

 

Chris

Hey Chris, the acrylic retarder works either put directly into the XF pots (for brushing) or added to their X20 acrylic thinner: As you're using their lacquer thinner, you'd need their lacquer retarder which should work by being added to said thinner? TBH, save yourself a headache and just use the lacquer thinners/XF or X20/XF mix, I was curious and will try this myself: You';ll have enough to contend with re-starting airbrushing without doing chemistry experiments! We're hijacking Gaz's thread so I'll post any more suggestions your Hurricane thread.

 

Cheers

 

Anil

[dogsbody]

57 minutes ago, azureglo said:

Hey Chris, the acrylic retarder works either put directly into the XF pots (for brushing) or added to their X20 acrylic thinner: As you're using their lacquer thinner, you'd need their lacquer retarder which should work by being added to said thinner? TBH, save yourself a headache and just use the lacquer thinners/XF or X20/XF mix, I was curious and will try this myself: You';ll have enough to contend with re-starting airbrushing without doing chemistry experiments! We're hijacking Gaz's thread so I'll post any more suggestions your Hurricane thread.

 

Cheers

 

Anil

 

Cool and groovy!

 

 

Chris

[tank152]

On 04/12/2018 at 17:19, azureglo said:

@GazB I can see why you thought the Tamiya X20 type thinner might work, AK were a bit vague on their site stating:

 

"Can be diluted with our own specific thinner or the ones from other brands and types: acrylic lacquer (non-vinyl), lacquer thinner, alcohol, water..."

 

Now as @Mike said lacquer thinner and IPA type thinners are poles apart and why AK would hint both might work is a mystery and misled you and probably a lot of others. What makes it even more confusing is most aqueous paints love cellulose thinners.

 

They do work with Tamiya X20 thinners, read through one of my earlier posts in this thread.

15 hours ago, GazB said:

But yeah, AK didn't do a good job getting their info straight.

 

Gaz

Just how much info do you want? It isn't rocket science mixing paint with some thinners. This is the second thread you've started about this paint, in your first I answered some of your questions about thinning it, I also posted a pic of a Toons Tiger I painted using these paints.

AK can hardly be blamed that you foolishly poured untested thinners blindly into 8 new jars of paint without at least testing first. You've got all the information here in this thread to use these paints should you decide to take it on board.

Sorry to be so blunt.

14 hours ago, colin said:

Your better off saving the plastic milk bottle tops, clean them and then use for mixing. I've had those metal ones and mine started to rust. Could be they were a inferior product to the ones shown though

Knowing the Cheap Charlie that you are 🙂 I'd say yes they were inferior ones. I've had those Mr Hobby ones for a few years now and none are showing any sign of rust.

Its the same with any tools you buy, you only get what you pay for, by cheap buy twice!

[Steve Noble]

16 hours ago, colin said:

Your better off saving the plastic milk bottle tops, clean them and then use for mixing. I've had those metal ones and mine started to rust. Could be they were a inferior product to the ones shown though

Actually you're probably not. If you want to use an inferior item instead of something designed for purpose that costs 79p for a 10 pack, then go figure. Oh, they don't rust either...

[cmatthewbacon]

... I think this thread is why I have bottles of dedicated thinner for each of the paint ranges I use (except Citadel, for which water seems to be good enough!); it's a minefield otherwise ;-(

Has anyone found anywhere to buy the Tamiya Lacquer paints in the UK yet? (the ones that are the same stuff as the TS sprays, except not in an aerosol)?

 

best,

M.

[colin]

7 hours ago, tank152 said:

Knowing the Cheap Charlie that you are 🙂 I'd say yes they were inferior ones. I've had those Mr Hobby ones for a few years now and none are showing any sign of rust.

Its the same with any tools you buy, you only get what you pay for, by cheap buy twice!

Funny enough they WERE Mr Hobby ones that I got, perhaps your just better with tools etc

Still the milk bottle tops save the need for cleaning as I just bin them after use 😄

[colin]

4 hours ago, cmatthewbacon said:

... I think this thread is why I have bottles of dedicated thinner for each of the paint ranges I use (except Citadel, for which water seems to be good enough!); it's a minefield otherwise ;-(

Has anyone found anywhere to buy the Tamiya Lacquer paints in the UK yet? (the ones that are the same stuff as the TS sprays, except not in an aerosol)?

 

best,

M.

Scalemodel shop shows a list of them,but when you try to order them they just come up out of stock.

 

[tank152]

1 hour ago, colin said:

Funny enough they WERE Mr Hobby ones that I got, perhaps your just better with tools

Obviously, being a tradesman I know all about caring for my tools. 

Still when someone like yourself is continuously bleating on about the cost of this, that and the other and being a general tight wad I couldn't resist myself😉

[colin]

4 hours ago, tank152 said:

Obviously, being a tradesman I know all about caring for my tools. 

Still when someone like yourself is continuously bleating on about the cost of this, that and the other and being a general tight wad I couldn't resist myself😉

Can't think where you have got I'm continually bleating on about costs which you seem obsessed by,

1 Price of Eduard PE

2 Price of Eduard kits at SMW 2017

Feel free to dig for more if it makes you happy 😉

[tank152]

8 minutes ago, colin said:

Can't think where you have got I'm continually bleating on about costs which you seem obsessed by,

1 Price of Eduard PE

2 Price of Eduard kits at SMW 2017

Feel free to dig for more if it makes you happy 😉

How about the price of Graphic Air filters.

3 green lead putty, in one of my threads.

Not forgetting the que pre SMW you even moaned about that.

With that i'm going to ignore you as I enjoy coming on here and I can see where this is going to end up. 😛

[colin]

59 minutes ago, tank152 said:

How about the price of Graphic Air filters.

3 green lead putty, in one of my threads.

Not forgetting the que pre SMW you even moaned about that.

With that i'm going to ignore you as I enjoy coming on here and I can see where this is going to end up. 😛

Graphic air, if you happy to pay £18 for one and I mention buying a roll for £32 which will make 80, I think thats being helpful to others

Again you can get same stuff cheaper (perhaps thats what upset you)

Never did moan about the SMW que as far as I remember, said I went to get a breakfast to let it go down, correct me if I'm wrong

By by happy bargain hunting 😁

[dogsbody]

And another topic drops down into a urination contest.

 

 

Chris

[Plasto]

From experience I can say they the following all thin with either Tamiya lacquer thinners, generic ‘gun wash lacquer thinners’ or gunze self leveling thinners.

 

Tamiya acrylics

Gunze aqueous 

Gunze mr Colour

Gunze Super Metallics

Tamiya Lacquer paints 

Decanted Tamiya spray cans

Tamiya Enamels..

Moltow Chrome Pen refills.

Alclad metallics

Testors Enamels

 

All of the above gives me personally enough choice to paint pretty much any plastic model I might want to build in any subject...

 

I tend to thin as I use the paint. Cheap single use ‘shot’ glasses from the supermarket allow paint to be made up and thinned as required.

 

modelling is supposed to be fun not a bun fight...

 

Cheers

 

Plasto

[tank152]

4 hours ago, Plasto said:

From experience I can say they the following all thin with either Tamiya lacquer thinners, generic ‘gun wash lacquer thinners’ or gunze self leveling thinners.

 

Tamiya acrylics

Gunze aqueous 

Gunze mr Colour

Gunze Super Metallics

Tamiya Lacquer paints 

Decanted Tamiya spray cans

Tamiya Enamels..

Moltow Chrome Pen refills.

Alclad metallics

Testors Enamels

 

Cheers

 

Plasto

You can also add Mr Paint to that list as well as Real Colour.

Could you explain what you mean by "Gun Wash lacquer thinners"?

[GazB]

23 hours ago, tank152 said:

 

Just how much info do you want? It isn't rocket science mixing paint with some thinners. This is the second thread you've started about this paint, in your first I answered some of your questions about thinning it, I also posted a pic of a Toons Tiger I painted using these paints.

AK can hardly be blamed that you foolishly poured untested thinners blindly into 8 new jars of paint without at least testing first. You've got all the information here in this thread to use these paints should you decide to take it on board.

Sorry to be so blunt.

 

Uh, okay. I didn't exactly say I was discounting what was said here, did I? Long after this issue. I simply reiterated that AK had been misleading in what you can use. I've poured thinner into Tamiya and Hobby Aqueous (X-20A and Ultimate respectively) and both worked fine, using the same thinner ratio. When a new type of paint comes out being compared to Tamiya and Aqueous, you'd figure the qualities would be similar. 

 

I asked AK themselves if I could use a thinner that worked with all acrylic type paints, including Tamiya and Hobby Aqueous and they said yes, because at that point they hadn't exactly given up that it was more lacquer than acrylic.

 

I only learned it wasn't an acrylic like the rest when I contacted Ultimate and they told me their tests were contrary to what AK claimed about it being acrylic like the others.

 

So in short, I followed AKs own advice. I kept that paint for a least a month before testing it because I wanted some clarification first and you'd think the company selling it would give you good advice on their new product.

 

Therefore I disagree that I was foolish. I did what had always worked flawlessly before, AFTER I was told it would also work with Real Color by AK themselves.

 

Gaz