Jump to content

The Real Color Debacle


GazB

Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, Duncan B said:

I'm amazed really as I found them as easy to use as Mr Color paints. I just splashed some Mr (Color) Thinners into the Real Color paint until I got the consistency I usually look for with Lacquer based paints, poured it into the airbrush and away I went. Never had any issues at all and the paint worked like a dream. I also added some Mr Color white to make a lighter shade and Mr Color Black to make a darker shade and they worked first time too! 

I can understand water not working, the Ultimate Thinner I've found doesn't work too well with lacquer based paints so that's no surprise to me either. I would bet money that cellulose would work well, in fact anything that would normally be used with a lacquer based paint.

I don't understand why AK would state that X paint would work with Y thinners if they hadn't tried it so onto the naughty step for them. I always test a new product on something that is expendable anyway and experience told me that the Ultimate Thinner wasn't worth trying with a lacquer paint regardless of what Ultimate might say either.

My own experience has led me to fall back to using Mr Thinner for lacquers, enamels and some water based acrylics and to use whatever works best for the rest. I'm not a huge fan of water based paints anyway so I will usually use the proper thinner recommended for the water based stuff rather than faff around.

So I guess I'm saying, naughty AK for giving out the wrong info and naughty Ultimate for stating their thinner is the ultimate and naughty you for believing them and not testing your new paint before ruining it all (oh, and naughty me for being cheeky!)

 

Duncan B

Hi, Duncan.

 

To be fair to Ultimate, their chart about thinning was compiled before Real Color released, and it has worked with Hobby Aqueous and Mig Ammo (when needed). A major problem with Real Color is a lot of people have been misled on what it actually was, and they weren't particularly clear or forthcoming, or simply hadn't communicated properly with their HR team. I don't think they said it was an acrylic lacquer until quite recently. On emodels that's what it is now listed as, but I don't recall that naming originally. 

 

I haven't used water for thinning, though. I keep having visions of it exploding out as this wet mess and leaving a mark.

 

:P

6 hours ago, lesliegl said:

I have bought some colours haven't airbrush them yet but I've done some brush painting and they brush out ok but the paint seems to drag on the brush as you use so I add some water from the bottle I wash the brushs out and that seems to fix that but just feels a bit odd brushing it...

Hey, leslie

 

Oddly, the only thing that did work fairly well for me so far was brushing, though I'd only tested three colours. One went on fairly good (this happened to be the same and only colour so far that sprayed well after a small application of X-20A), and with three layers (on a small piece) got a nice coating. Another colourwent on okay. Although a lighter colour started to pick up darker stuff from the brush even after washing. It went on a bit better than Tamiya, which never brush paints very well except for small areas.

 

Gaz

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, GazB said:

A major problem with Real Color is a lot of people have been misled on what it actually was, and they weren't particularly clear or forthcoming, or simply hadn't communicated properly with their HR team. I don't think they said it was an acrylic lacquer until quite recently.

 

This is the thing with acrylics. So many without much interest in chemistry are happy to believe that anything with the word "acrylic" printed on the label must be inherently better than anything with the word "enamel" printed on in every imaginable sense.

 

Acrylic =/= acrylic =/= acrylic.

 

However, write "acrylic" on it and some people will fall over themselves to buy it whether it's a water based latex type or nuclear-grade cellulose or MEK thinned lacquer type - and probably still state with certainty that they wont use enamel because of the smell!

 

Hence the cynic in me suspects that it's convenient for manufacturers to emphasise the word "acrylic" in their labelling and downplay or hide the cellulose thinned lacquer part because the former part makes marketing very easy and the latter part doesn't sound so nice for using around the house.

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

After looking on the AK website and browsing the internet my feeling is they are lacquer paints, much the same as Mr Color, Tamiya TS and LP. They are not water based acrylics. Personally I'd be thinning them with the dedicated AK thinner or Mr Color levelling thinner, Tamiya lacquer thinner...

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

This is the thing with acrylics. So many without much interest in chemistry are happy to believe that anything with the word "acrylic" printed on the label must be inherently better than anything with the word "enamel" printed on in every imaginable sense.

 

Acrylic =/= acrylic =/= acrylic.

 

However, write "acrylic" on it and some people will fall over themselves to buy it whether it's a water based latex type or nuclear-grade cellulose or MEK thinned lacquer type - and probably still state with certainty that they wont use enamel because of the smell!

 

Hence the cynic in me suspects that it's convenient for manufacturers to emphasise the word "acrylic" in their labelling and downplay or hide the cellulose thinned lacquer part because the former part makes marketing very easy and the latter part doesn't sound so nice for using around the house.

Hi, Jamie.

 

Partly marketed as acrylics to get around certain barriers in shipping as well I think. But even so, considering they're basically the same as Tamiya and Gunze in idea, you'd think they'd function the same way.

 

Gaz

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Steve Noble said:

After looking on the AK website and browsing the internet my feeling is they are lacquer paints, much the same as Mr Color, Tamiya TS and LP. They are not water based acrylics. Personally I'd be thinning them with the dedicated AK thinner or Mr Color levelling thinner, Tamiya lacquer thinner...

It appears they do require a lacquer thinner now. They've already removed their regular thinner from the list of options. We know Ultimate doesn't work, and X-20A seems to have mixed results. Still can't get my head around how distilled water is supposed to work with them. 

 

Gaz

Edited by GazB
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Tony Oliver said:

Yeah all the thinners in that vid are laq/hot type ones. 

 

So the paint is no different to say mr color compatibility wise. 

 

Guess they messed up saying to use water and/or regular acrylic thinners. 

It would appear so, Tony. 

 

There has to have been some disconnect between the PR team and the ones behind it for that gaffe.

 

Gaz

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So in other words if you want to thin their paints you going to have to use thinners that stink to buggery and most likely the best results will be airbrushing them rather than hand painting them and on top of that some of the paint matches aren't the best either..

 

Leslie

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is that video supposed to prove?

Where to begin...

 

They contaminate each test by using the brush from the previous test;

The 'results' just show a diluted puddle of colour. No evidence that either the brush was actually clean or that the thinned paint was any use for painting;

No advice on how to thin it for spraying.

 

Load of nonsense PR fluff.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, lesliegl said:

So in other words if you want to thin their paints you going to have to use thinners that stink to buggery and most likely the best results will be airbrushing them rather than hand painting them and on top of that some of the paint matches aren't the best either..

 

Leslie

 

 

It would seem so, Leslie. Mind you as far as NATO green goes just about everyone seems to make it too dark bar Tamiya. Mig Ammo's NATO green is almost like Olive Drab, but still, when they clarified the authenticity of it they should've made the distinction that NATO green in reality differs between countries. That it has an RAL number suggests straight away that its not suitable for U.S. vehicles. I get the impression their WW2 colours may fair better (of course, I'm not really sure how we can confirm exactly how authentic they are) since that seems to be what they pushed most, but the NATO set wasn't particularly correct.

1 hour ago, Kallisti said:

What is that video supposed to prove?

Where to begin...

 

They contaminate each test by using the brush from the previous test;

The 'results' just show a diluted puddle of colour. No evidence that either the brush was actually clean or that the thinned paint was any use for painting;

No advice on how to thin it for spraying.

 

Load of nonsense PR fluff.

Hey, Kallisti.

 

This was part of the problem. They demonstrate 'things' but don't give you thinning ratios or a demonstration. The PR department regarding this product has been pretty ineffective and misleading. On Andy's Hobby Headquarters' vid about this, he remarks that there aren't any instructions at all on how to thin. I believe Tamiya, on one of their sites, told you how to thin their paint down. 

1 hour ago, lasermonkey said:

Have you tried posting on their Facebook page? I find that an indignant, yet polite post usually gets results. After all, no one likes bad publicity!

Hi, lasermonkey.

 

I haven't. I've never had a Facebook page (don't trust them, lol). But at this point I'm doubtful they'd respond there either. They ignored four separate emails, in all of which I remained polite, plus two Youtube vid comments about the matter. That they went and silently deleted the first vid (and thus my comments pointing out the flaws) and uploaded it again (still not sure if they altered anything in it, can't compare them) without a word of acknowledgement suggests something of a shady practice when it comes to misleading people. They essentially tried to cover it up. Tbh, I wouldn't be surprised if my email had been blocked by them.

 

Contrast this with Mig Ammo who responded within a day, and not only admitted that Crystal Colours weren't suitable for things like windows, but actually recommended another that brand (Mr Hobby) might work better.

 

Gaz

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, lesliegl said:

 

So in other words if you want to thin their paints you going to have to use thinners that stink to buggery

 

 

Without pointing out the obvious that’s an unhelpful comment as what else would you expect to spray a lacquer based paint with anyway? 

 

It’s what I thought as soon as they said their new paint was a lacquer based acrylic along the lines of Gunze Mr Color. ie it will need a ‘hot’ solvent. 

 

So the ‘thin with water’ claim seems to be an error of their own PR department either from a lack of knowledge or it got lost in translation. Which it was they seem not willing to admit to and are acting like it was never recommended according to the dude that started this thread...

 

Tony

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/21/2018 at 4:02 PM, Tony Oliver said:

 

Without pointing out the obvious that’s an unhelpful comment as what else would you expect to spray a lacquer based paint with anyway? 

 

It’s what I thought as soon as they said their new paint was a lacquer based acrylic along the lines of Gunze Mr Color. ie it will need a ‘hot’ solvent. 

 

So the ‘thin with water’ claim seems to be an error of their own PR department either from a lack of knowledge or it got lost in translation. Which it was they seem not willing to admit to and are acting like it was never recommended according to the dude that started this thread...

 

Tony

I just wish they'd owned up to it.

 

Gaz

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 6 months later...

I've just read through this thread and find it quite interesting as I have just invested in a bunch of RC paints, I tried water as suggested in the publicity to clean A ) my paint brush, and  B )my AB,  and have found it reacts and coagulates so I am a little confused by some comments that are made regarding water use??? IPA seems to give the best clean does anyone who uses this range have any further suggestions as to cleaning?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've used these paints and found them to spray nicely without any problems. I've thinned them with Mr Levelling Thinners, Mr Thinners and IPA. Just treat them as you would with Tamiya etc.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tank152, I agree with you, they spray beautifully, no build up on the needle or tip drying. The curing time on the model is great, no messing about waiting for layers to dry etc and the colours are pretty good, the only one that stands out as dubious but requires more looking at is SCC2.

As to cleaning, I will continue with IPA unless any other suggestions arise, Chrissy_J I've never used cellulose thinners before, do you have any good brand recommendations?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, tank152 said:

I've used these paints and found them to spray nicely without any problems. I've thinned them with Mr Levelling Thinners, Mr Thinners and IPA. Just treat them as you would with Tamiya etc.

Same here, as I said early in this thread, treat them like any other lacquer/alcohol based acrylic and they work well. Too many people think 'acrylic' = water based.

 

Duncan B

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was given two bottles of Wilko brand cellulose thinners, they're small (120ml, I think) but I literally use just 2-3ml at a time, dispensed from a pipette, so it lasts a while. An empty, washed out bottle is the right size for keeping IPA on your workbench, too.

 

Be advised, it *will* eat any rubber seals or O-rings. Check your manufacturer's product information for the seal material before using.

 

https://www.wilko.com/en-uk/wilko-cellulose-thinners-125ml/p/0182560

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, tank152 said:

I've used these paints and found them to spray nicely without any problems. I've thinned them with Mr Levelling Thinners, Mr Thinners and IPA. Just treat them as you would with Tamiya etc.

I got one colour so far to spray almost properly, but it required a huge amount of thinning to the overall amount to do that, far more than the ratio I'd use in Tamiya or Mr Hobby Aqueous.

 

It also sludged up badly. I was cleaning through, and thought for a moment some tissue had gotten into the cup. Since I use paper towels and cotton buds, I was a bit alarmed. Poking at it with a toothpick to remove it showed it was actually a lump of paint. I have no idea what happened there. It was the only time I've seen that happen with the RC stuff I've tried to spray. The only time it sprayed well and it sludged afterwards :(

 

Admittedly, what did go down was quite nice, but the paint itself seemed to have a lot of faffing about (lots of thinner, the unexpected sludging). Maybe it was the water I used to flush it through after the airbrush cleaner (the former sometimes flows through better than the latter to get the bulk of remaining paint out), but still. 

 

Times like this I wish Tamiya would really broaden their range. MiG Ammo paints cover more of my specific colour needs now. They can be a bit more difficult to paint on since you have to do it in finer layers and avoid heavy spraying, but they're overall easier to apply and clean up after. RC is a nice idea, but their initial directions were flawed and the thinning ratio is peculiar. I even followed the thinning directions from another video and their paint sprayed fine, whereas mine still had flow issues and required probably half as much thinner again to get going. Maybe the early batches were a bit iffy?

 

Gaz

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, GazB said:

I got one colour so far to spray almost properly, but it required a huge amount of thinning to the overall amount to do that, far more than the ratio I'd use in Tamiya or Mr Hobby Aqueous.

 

 

 

RC is a nice idea, but their initial directions were flawed and the thinning ratio is peculiar. I even followed the thinning directions from another video and their paint sprayed fine, whereas mine still had flow issues and required probably half as much thinner again to get going. Maybe the early batches were a bit iffy?

 

Gaz

I bought mine at Telford last year just after they'd been released so all my colours would have been from an early batch and like i've said before mine have all sprayed faultlessly. Niether have I found them to have peculiar thinning ratios!! They are identical to Tamiya and Gunze Aqueous you wouldn't thin those with water so i'm at a loss why you'd even think about thinning RC with it. 

AK were promoting the paint last year and never mentioned using it to thin it with.

I really think it must be down to whatever you've contaminated your airbrush with that is giving you trouble and not the paint.

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 01/12/2018 at 20:58, tank152 said:

They are identical to Tamiya and Gunze Aqueous you wouldn't thin those with water so i'm at a loss why you'd even think about thinning RC with it. 

For the sake of clarity, Tamiya and Gunze Aqueous can both be thinned with water (in the case of Aqueous, the clue's in the name). AK Real Color isn't identical to them. It's a different formulation and is closer to Gunze Mr Color, although it can be mixed with Tamiya and Aqueous paints.

 

The Real Color paints are quite thick in the jar with a high pigment count and need more thinning than other similar ranges. The pigment also seems to be a little more coarse than what you find in Tamiya and Gunze paints which could lead to clogging in an airbrush if the paint isn't thinned enough. Some of the more recent colours I've picked up seem less pigment heavy than the first batches, so they could have adjusted the ratios in the meantime.

 

Andy:cat:

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, AndyRM101 said:

For the sake of clarity, Tamiya and Gunze Aqueous can both be thinned with water (in the case of Aqueous, the clue's in the name). AK Real Color isn't identical to them. It's a different formulation and is closer to Gunze Mr Color, although it can be mixed with Tamiya and Aqueous paints.

 

The Real Color paints are quite thick in the jar with a high pigment count and need more thinning than other similar ranges. The pigment also seems to be a little more coarse than what you find in Tamiya and Gunze paints which could lead to clogging in an airbrush if the paint isn't thinned enough. Some of the more recent colours I've picked up seem less pigment heavy than the first batches, so they could have adjusted the ratios in the meantime.

 

Andy:cat:

Personally after using them I would say that they are closer to Tamiya and Gunze Aqueous as i've had good results also thinning them with Tamiya X20 thinners and also with neat IPA.

Also for clarity i'm well aware of the clue in the name Aqueous 😏, which I also thinned with Mr Levelling Thinners. They were my preferred brand of paint before I switched to Mr Paint.

Like i've already mentioned in this thread, just in case you haven't been bothered to read through it all I bought mine at Telford last year just after they'd been released so mine are from the initial batch and never have I noticed any difference in the thinning required.

Kristof Pulinckx from AK who was giving demos and used Tamiya x20 thinners as part of the demo.

Tim.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/5/2018 at 9:27 AM, Steve Noble said:

When you say pre-thin you mean you thin them in advance of use? Never do that as it destroys the paint in my opinion. 

 

Could you expand on this? "Destroy" seems a strong word. For instance I have been using pre thinned paint (Mr Color+Levelling, some of it made up 5 years ago), Mr Paint is acrylic based paint pre thinned with cellulose thinner (it says so on the bottle!) and all aerosols paints are " pre thinned" and so for that matter is Alclad. Is this just your feeling/opinion or is there any evidence you've based this on that you could share? 

 

Cheers

 

Anil

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...