Is it Sea Otter in SEAC colours from WWII or later?

[JWM]

Hi

There are some photos like here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/27862259@N02/6154538937

presnting Sea Otter from Java with SEAC roundels (description "Supermarine Sea Otter Kemajoran airfield, Java, "). When this photo was taken? This scheme( high white and EDSG???) is very attractie but is it WWII painting scheme? 

Help will be welcome and appreciated

Regards

Jerzy-Wojtek

 

[ClaudioN]

The picture also shows a Mosquito and what appears to be a line-up of Spitfires.

I'd think it may have been taken towards the end of 1945, when British units supported the return of Dutch troops to Java.

 

The Mosuito might be a PR one with SEAC markings, Sea Otters possibly painted aluminium?

Just my two pence.

 

Claudio

 

[Biggles81]

British presence in Java dated from about October 1945 into 1946 and included the destruction of Surabaya to suppress a particularly violent Indonesian nationalist uprising in November 1945. In the photo is at Kemajoran (the original airport in Batavia, now the Jakarta Expo Centre) then it is in the immediate post WWII period when Java was still under SEAC's responsibility.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Biggles81

[JWM]

Many thank Bigglas81 and ClaudioN!

9 hours ago, ClaudioN said:

The Mosuito might be a PR one with SEAC markings, Sea Otters possibly painted aluminium?

Maybe, but I am rather expecting late CC scheme EDSG/White or EDSG/DSG/White....

I am considering build of it so would like to know as much as possible....

3 hours ago, Biggles81 said:

then it is in the immediate post WWII period when Java was still under SEAC's responsibility.

This means that airplanes could took part in WWII still...

Regards

J-W

 

[tonyot]

I would say that the Sea Otter`s are silver Jerzy. I have seen a Sea Otter wearing what appears to be the post war style EDSG uppers with Sky sides and undersides and wearing SEAC roundels,....... I have also seen a colour photo of a Seafire XV wearing the same scheme with BPF roundels,..... so they could be in this scheme too,...... but I would go for silver! 

 

Cheers

         Tony

[JWM]

 

 

 

I have found another photo which makes me doubtful on all silver WWII Sea Otter in SEAC, I am sorry to say it;

 Is it white with EDSG top? I think it is JM 772? and "T" is grey? Red? Lack of serial on bottom side of lower wing suggests me, that it is really WWII photo, am I right? It was described as 292 Sq. Machine has radar dipols on external struts and SEAC roundels with blue center (?). I think it could be very attractive scheme to do model...Any comment will be appreciated,

 

Regards

J-W

 

[stevehnz]

It certainly appears to have a dark top to the rear fuselage, engine pod & cabin roof. To my eye the pale colour appears more like white than silver or pale grey, I'd say go for it, TSS over white.

Steve.

Edited August 10, 2018 by stevehnz
Spelling, rest instead of rear.

[Seahawk]

Excellent find!  The Air Britain serials book has JM772 transferred from the Admiralty to the RAF in Feb 44, serving only with 1350 Flt and being Struck Off Charge on 28 Mar 1946.  The Air Britain book on RAF Flying Training and Support Units says of 1350 Flt: formed 15/6/45 ex No 5 ASR Flt as 1350 Air Sea Rescue Flight at Ratmalana (dett  China Bay 1/6/45 - 19/7/45).  Disbanded 7/11/45.  So the photo was apparently taken between Feb 44 and 28 Mar 1946, probably at Ratmalana or China Bay, Ceylon.  I haven't looked it up but isn't EDSG/White the standard Coastal Command camouflage for the period?  Suggest it is not FAA TSS/Sky because FAA aircraft had the upper surface camouflage taken down to the bottom of the fuselage at this period.

 

NB those really are SEAC markings this time, not East Indies Fleet!

Edited January 26, 2020 by Seahawk
1350 Flt disbandment date corrected.

[JWM]

Thank you Steve and Seahawk for your comments. What is perheps the most doubtful is colour of "T". Is it some dark grey? Like on CC Liberators from SEAC?

Regards

J-W

[Ed Russell]

In this theatre there would be a natural reluctance to paint anything red so I would think some form of grey is most likely.

[JWM]

Ed, many thanks. As you see I am still gathering materials to do Sea Otter. But I hope I will go on with it soon

Cheers

J-W

 

[JWM]

I am finishing my Sea Otter as JM 772. Back to the "T" problem - I think that at least in Med area ASR machines had yellow codes (do they?), here the colour looks light, can it be then yellow or rather grey?

Regards

J-W

 

[ClaudioN]

The ASR camouflage with yellow codes had the dark upper surface camouflage colours extended to the lower fuselage sides, like here.

Just out of my mind, I wouldn't consider yellow.

 

Claudio

 

[Seahawk]

NB This is post war.  My pure guesses are either red or pale blue (like the roundel centre).  Agree yellow unlikely: insufficient contrast.

[JWM]

2 hours ago, Seahawk said:

NB This is post war.  My pure guesses are either red or pale blue (like the roundel centre).  Agree yellow unlikely: insufficient contrast.

Thank you, but why you said it post-war? This photo is in ww2talk ( http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/292-sqn-raf-sea-otter-aircraft-any-photos.19168/ ) - please scroll down to post #16 - it is rather suggested there hat this is war time take. The JM 772 was scraped soon after war, in 1946 I think.

In post #40 there there is a message on a war time movie with 292 sq. Sea Otters, but it is not available in net. The photo from post #21 is also a high-white  scheme on Sea Otter. And lack of serial on lower wing suggest for me a war time photo. Therefore I am a bit confused why you are so sure that it is post war. 

BYW, there are available interesting reports like those ones: http://www.rquirk.com/292trans/1630c086.pdf , http://www.rquirk.com/292trans/1630c062.pdf about Sea Otters services in CBI.

Best regards

J-W

 

 

[Seahawk]

12 hours ago, JWM said:

Thank you, but why you said it post-war? 

My argument for saying it was post-war was based in the fact that the Air Britain RAF Serials book shows this aircraft as taken on charge in Feb 44, serving only with 1350 Flt and being struck off charge on 28 March 1946.  1350 Flt only formed on 15 June 1945 (see my post 😎 so, barring a couple of months, all service would have been post-war.  However I now notice that the following serial has identical details, except that service is listed as 292/1350 Flt: given the coincidence of the other details, I now think it plausible, even likely, that both aircraft served with 292 Sq first, which widens the possible date for the photograph between Feb 44 (date of formation of 292 Sq, date JM771 and 772 taken on charge) and 28 Mar 1946 (both aircraft struck off charge).  The case becomes compelling when you produce, in the link you quote, first-hand evidence from a former pilot that his logbook records this aircraft as part of E Flt, 292 Sq (which became 5 ASR Flight on 1 May 1945, which became 1350 Flt on 15 June 1945).  So yes, it may very well have been a wartime photo.  Though I doubt whether its appearance would have changed much up to its SOC date (beyond perhaps adding underwing serials, as you say).  I still stand by the possibility of the code being in red: it's a very small amount of red on the airframe.

 

BTW JM767, also mentioned as a 292 Sq aircraft in the post, is simply recorded as having gone to the Far East and being SOC 26 April 1945.

 

The camouflage scheme still intrigues me.  In my earlier post 8 I said that this aircraft had been transferred from the FAA (as per the A-B Serials book "141 Sea Otter (from batch of 250 for Admiralty) transferred to RAF at various times between October 1944 [sic!] and April 1947").  However the serial number does not appear at all in Ray Sturtivant's FAA Aircraft 1939-45: this suggests to me that the aircraft may have been diverted during build  from the FAA to the RAF, increasing the possibility that it was rolled out wearing the standard RAF maritime colours of White with residual Extra Dark Sea Grey uppersurfaces.  And, continuing that train of thought, maybe the code was later applied in the colour prescribed for RAF aircraft at the time viz Light Slate Grey.

 

May I say how much I appreciate the stream of fascinating stuff you manage to unearth from the farthest corners of the internet.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Seahawk

[ClaudioN]

Taken from "Eyes for the Phoenix" by Geoff Thomas, facsimile of Order A.F.O (I.) 69-76 on Camouflage and Markings, 4 April 1944:

General Reconnaissance Aircraft in Coastal Areas

    National Markings: (...) detailed in AFO (India/357/43)

    Upper Surfaces: Temperate Sea scheme

    Under Surfaces: White

The document includes a list of aircraft, divided by size of roundels to be used (Small, Medium, Large), but the Sea Otter is not (yet?) among them.

Looking at the picture of JM772 and comparing the fuselage roundel size to the 8-inch serial, I suggest the roundel is Small size (centre 6 inches, outer 16 inches).

[EwenS]

Firstly, one minor correction to what has been said above. 1350 Flight disbanded 7 November 1945 and not 1946 as stated in post #8. The last of the RAF ASR units in SEA with Sea Otters disbanded in Jan 1946 (1351 Flight and whatever remained of 1352 Flight). After that any of their aircraft would have been languishing in MUs in either India/Ceylon or Singapore.

 

Contrary to popular belief the war did not simply end in the Far East in Aug 1945 and everybody went home. There was a huge amount of activity re-occupying French Indo-China (modern day Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam) and the Dutch East Indies where there was a hot war well into 1946 with heavy involvement of the RAF and British / Indian troops. At the same time there was a great desire on the part of weary forces personnel to get home (mutinies occurred in various places). So repainting aircraft came very low on the totem pole. So the liklihood is that the vast majority of aircraft in 1946 were wearing the same paint and markings that they finished the war with in Aug 1945 (no doubt someone on here will come up with some that weren't!). Although RAF policy was that underwing serials were to be introduced in "inactive theatres" from July 1945, I wouldn't rely on that in SEA until much later except for new deliveries.

 

Returning for a moment to the photo put up by the OP, I'm beginning to doubt it being taken at Kemajoran airfield on Java. AFAIK the only Spitfires that found their way to Java was a detachment of 681 PR squadron with Spitfie XI. There seems to be too many in the line up for that. 155 with Spitfire VIII/XIV, while attached to RAF NEI, with its HQ at Batavia, Java, was actually sent to Medan in Sumatra between April & August 1946. Add to that that none of the ASR flights are recorded as having been in Java and the conclusion I reach is that the photo was taken somewhere else. Kallang, Singapore hosted 1352 Flight with Sea Otters between 25 Sept 1945 and Jan 1946 (e.g. JM814), but the Spitfire wing had moved out before they arrived. So that takes us back to India / Ceylon and widens the possible timescale considerably.

 

Turning to the question of colour scheme, There is a photo of 2 Sea Otters side by side at Kai Tak, Hong Kong, in late 1945 from 1701 squadron. See Squadrons and units of the FAA p275. The striking thing is that one aircraft has a very light coloured fuselage (akin to those being queried) while its sister has a dark coloured fuselage with a wavy fuselage demarcation. The quality is not wonderful to be able to tell much more than that. So it looks like Sea Otters were being finished in 2 patterns / schemes before we come to discuss the colours of those patterns.

[JWM]

4 hours ago, Seahawk said:

BTW JM767, also mentioned as a 292 Sq aircraft in the post, is simply recorded as having gone to the Far East and being SOC 26 April 1945.

Some machines were lost in combat. There was a story about one Sea Otter attacked by five Ki43 Oscar, shot down in flames to sea, however pilot was able to sit it on water with burned out upper wing and then taxi to the beech. This was possible because Oscars were alread under preeasure of Spitfires, four of five were shot down. I 've found it few days ago but now I cannot find it again. 

There is also this interesting film at IWM archive https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060029025 - unfortunatell not available in net.

 

Many thank you for your comment, but I think now you are considering the war time for this photo, if I got you right.

Regarding camo - my "working hypothesis" which I used to paint this machine is that originaly (factory scheme) she was painted in regular biplane TSS with shadow shading. When it was moved to RAF they did not painted everything, only bottoms and sides with white, so on lower wing lighter colur remained. I extrapolate here what I know about Wellingtons from for example Polish 304 Squadron RAF, when they were moved from BC night duties to CC, the DG/DE on top retained and only Night was replaced by white.

6 minutes ago, ClaudioN said:

Looking at the picture of JM772 and comparing the fuselage roundel size to the 8-inch serial, I suggest the roundel is Small size (centre 6 inches, outer 16 inches).

Claudio, thank you, this was my next question!

 

Ewen, many thanks for your explanations. That is true that war at Malaya and Indonesia for UK did not ended with VJ day!

 

 

Regards

Jerzy-Wojtek

 

[KRK4m]

Concerning the JM772 do you think that underwing floats are white overall?

I cannot find even a trace of darker paint on their topsides.

Cheers

Michael

[John Masters]

Nice link.  I cannot answer the question, although others have already done so.  But nice link.  Excellent image with rigging.

[72modeler]

JWM,

 

Slightly off-topic, but while I was looking for the aircraft you described that was shot down by IJA Oscars, I found this Flickr photo of a Danish Sea Otter taken in 1949! Pretty neat modeling project in colors and markings not usually associated with the type!

Mike

 

 

[JWM]

1 hour ago, KRK4m said:

Concerning the JM772 do you think that underwing floats are white overall?

I cannot find even a trace of darker paint on their topsides.

Cheers

Michael

I think so (I mean I already painted them white overall).

On 1/26/2020 at 4:59 PM, ClaudioN said:

Looking at the picture of JM772 and comparing the fuselage roundel size to the 8-inch serial, I suggest the roundel is Small size (centre 6 inches, outer 16 inches).

Thank you.

 

BTW - I have doubts how the top wing SEAC insignia were in details. The machine was produced for European theater, wearing large B roundels at ends of wings, then were they only painted over (with one of two upper colours) and small SEAC roundel was placed at their center? Or the whole wing was repainted in  maintance unit and again small SEAC roaundel were painted on place. Or there were lager SEAC roundels on top. then on fuselage (I do not see something like that so far in SEAC)?

 

42 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

Slightly off-topic, but while I was looking for the aircraft you described that was shot down by IJA Oscars, I found this Flickr photo of a Danish Sea Otter taken in 1949! Pretty neat modeling project in colors and markings not usually associated with the type!

Mike

Nice photo, but it is defintly out of my time restriction (1935-45) which I strictly obey

 

Regards

J-W

 

 

[ClaudioN]

7 hours ago, JWM said:

I have doubts how the top wing SEAC insignia were in details. The machine was produced for European theater, wearing large B roundels at ends of wings, then were they only painted over (with one of two upper colours) and small SEAC roundel was placed at their center? Or the whole wing was repainted in  maintance unit and again small SEAC roaundel were painted on place. Or there were lager SEAC roundels on top. then on fuselage (I do not see something like that so far in SEAC)?

For uppersurface roundels Order A.F.O (I.) 69-76 on Camouflage and Markings, 4 April 1944 simply said: put a small white circle at the centre and make all the rest blue, keeping the original size.

I do not know what was prescribed when the roundel centre colour was changed from white to light blue, but pictures seem to show that a smaller, correct proportioned roundel was applied and remains of the larger European theatre roundel were overpianted in camouflage colour.

Somebody else here on BM may know better.