RAF Me262 Colours

[wellsprop]

Hi All,

 

I'm beginning building Airfix's new 262 in RAF colours - see the bottom profile - Red 2.

 

 

I have a few questions about the colour scheme. I assume the colour of the aircraft is RLM 76 beneath with RLM 83 over the top (though it might be RLM 82 - but I'm not sure!).

 

The other colour question is the RAF markings - waht colour are they? I plan to use postwar roundels with the lighter/brighter red and blue.

 

Cheers,

Ben.

[Beard]

I've no idea as to the camouflage colours but I believe that the post-war roundels were introduced in 1947. I've had a look for a photograph of the aircraft and can't find anything (that's not to say there isn't one) hitch makes me think of Troy Smith saying,"never trust a profile without a photograph".

[Dave Fleming]

Roundel colours would probably be wartime colours, but as they were initially painted on in the field they could even be German paints.

[stevehnz]

'm guessing this is Ben's preferred subjected.

 

 

 

I did a search on RAF captured me 262. I'm not a late war Luftwaffe fundi but maybe a search on the Wk Nr will give a factory & a typical colour scheme as a start, some did have overall RLM83 82  I believe. The decals & fin flash appear to have approximately D type dimensions but as Simon ponits out too early for that, maybe a precaution to make them uber conspicuous so as to emphasise they were under new management.

@wellsprop Ben, maybe some more reading here if you haven't already seen this.

Steve.

Edited April 27, 2018 by stevehnz

[tempestfan]

The RLM83 topic is a ... as evidenced by the lively discussion of Ta 152 colours.

[wellsprop]

Thanks for the responses chaps!

 

The good news is, I'm not too worried about being 100% accurate - I just want something that looks reasonably correct

 

I'm going to settle with RLM83 over the top - 82 looks much to light and garish.

 

I believe the aircraft is, in fact, W Nr 112372, Red 2 - based on the resources I've found online. If it isn't, I'm not particularly bothered!

 

 

As for the markings, I'm really not sure what size/colour they are. Seems to have type D roundel dimensions (seems 32") but with, I presume, type C colours. The fin flash is also type C. I'm going to go with type C colours, but non-standard dimensions.

 

Ben

[Nigel Bunker]

Looking at pictures in War Prizes and also War Prizes The Album, the RAF roundels painted on many Luftwaffe aircraft captured in Germany at the end of the war approximated to the early war A type red white blue roundels but the proportions varied so some looked like the post war D type roundels. Luftwaffe aircraft captured in Britain during the war seem to have had roundels painted properly to the standard in force at the time of their capture.

[Seahawk]

Agree with Nigel.  They were not Type D roundels (which hadn't been invented at that time (and that unofficial nomenclature for them didn't come until even later)) but approximations of pre-war red/white/blue roundels.  Commercially available Type D roundels would a. be in the wrong colours and b. frequently be far too neat.  

[wellsprop]

22 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

Agree with Nigel.  They were not Type D roundels (which hadn't been invented at that time (and that unofficial nomenclature for them didn't come until even later)) but approximations of pre-war red/white/blue roundels.  Commercially available Type D roundels would a. be in the wrong colours and b. frequently be far too neat.  

 

Not sure whether to paint the decals myself (freehand semi-rough) or use a type decals from the spares.

[Seahawk]

49 minutes ago, wellsprop said:

 

Not sure whether to paint the decals myself (freehand semi-rough) or use a type decals from the spares.

Yeah, where are all those wrongly proportioned/wrongly coloured roundels when you need them!

[wellsprop]

2 hours ago, Seahawk said:

Yeah, where are all those wrongly proportioned/wrongly coloured roundels when you need them!

 

Any Academy kit, surely?! 😂

[Ed Russell]

Hobbyboss to the rescue!

[David E. Brown]

Gents,

 

There is an aircraft that has an identical camouflage and markings scheme to Red 2 and was well photographed and should be used for guidance to determine Red 2's colours and scheme. 

 

If the images of “Red 2” are compared with the Me 262 discovered by the Americans at an airfield between Stendal and Borstel, Yellow 8, WNr.112385 of 3./JG 7, there is an identical match (these can be found online).  The camouflage scheme of RLM 81 and 82 and patterns around the engines and the extremely low upper/lower surface demarcation line are very similar for both of these aircraft and distinctive for 1123XX Werknummer series.  Note too that in addition to similar markings, the position of the JG 7 crest, tailband, and gun loading markings are identical as well.  The low contrast between the uppersurface colours suggests a darker shade for RLM 82 over which the 81 was applied lightly, hence also reducing contrast. Indeed, that one can observe the puttied seems on the fuselage confirms that the uppersurface paints were very lightly applied.  Note the wing undersides were unpainted with putted seems visible.

 

The aircraft's JG 7 tail band and unit crest (and original number) were painted out by the Germans prior to its capture. (I believe, based on analysis of its photographs, that it was originally coded "White 7".)  I suspect this machine was nominally assigned to “IV./JG 7” (JV 44), but never was sent to the unit is southern Germany.  Indeed, it was likely transferred to 10./NJG 11 where it was coded “Red 2” (red number as were all other aircraft in the unit).  It is possible that this aircraft may have been flow / surrendered by Major Erich Rudorffer at Schleswig, but that’s another story.

 

Note that there is a similar machine that has caused lots of confusion in identifying Red 2.  This is Red 1 / White 2 (WNr.1123??). It ended up in Canada where it lies buried somewhere under Downsview Ontario airport.  Photos reveal that it looks the same as Red 1 with identical visible and painted-out makings in the same positions.  It was found at Schleswig (as seen in several photos) along with all the two-seat Me 262s of 10./NJG 11, and these aircraft as we know were all coded with red numbers.  It is also known the unit operated several single-seat A-1a aircraft. I thus believe that Red 1 and Red 2 were both JG 7 aircraft transferred to and used operationally by 10./NJG 11 during the last weeks of the war, with the Red 2 the only surviving single-seat Me 262 nightfighter,

 

Cheers,

 

David

 

 

[wellsprop]

5 hours ago, David E. Brown said:

Gents,

 

There is an aircraft that has an identical camouflage and markings scheme to Red 2 and was well photographed and should be used for guidance to determine Red 2's colours and scheme. 

 

If the images of “Red 2” are compared with the Me 262 discovered by the Americans at an airfield between Stendal and Borstel, Yellow 8, WNr.112385 of 3./JG 7, there is an identical match (these can be found online).  The camouflage scheme of RLM 81 and 82 and patterns around the engines and the extremely low upper/lower surface demarcation line are very similar for both of these aircraft and distinctive for 1123XX Werknummer series.  Note too that in addition to similar markings, the position of the JG 7 crest, tailband, and gun loading markings are identical as well.  The low contrast between the uppersurface colours suggests a darker shade for RLM 82 over which the 81 was applied lightly, hence also reducing contrast. Indeed, that one can observe the puttied seems on the fuselage confirms that the uppersurface paints were very lightly applied.  Note the wing undersides were unpainted with putted seems visible.

 

The aircraft's JG 7 tail band and unit crest (and original number) were painted out by the Germans prior to its capture. (I believe, based on analysis of its photographs, that it was originally coded "White 7".)  I suspect this machine was nominally assigned to “IV./JG 7” (JV 44), but never was sent to the unit is southern Germany.  Indeed, it was likely transferred to 10./NJG 11 where it was coded “Red 2” (red number as were all other aircraft in the unit).  It is possible that this aircraft may have been flow / surrendered by Major Erich Rudorffer at Schleswig, but that’s another story.

 

Note that there is a similar machine that has caused lots of confusion in identifying Red 2.  This is Red 1 / White 2 (WNr.1123??). It ended up in Canada where it lies buried somewhere under Downsview Ontario airport.  Photos reveal that it looks the same as Red 1 with identical visible and painted-out makings in the same positions.  It was found at Schleswig (as seen in several photos) along with all the two-seat Me 262s of 10./NJG 11, and these aircraft as we know were all coded with red numbers.  It is also known the unit operated several single-seat A-1a aircraft. I thus believe that Red 1 and Red 2 were both JG 7 aircraft transferred to and used operationally by 10./NJG 11 during the last weeks of the war, with the Red 2 the only surviving single-seat Me 262 nightfighter,

 

Cheers,

 

David

 

 

Thanks for the info David!

 

Would you suggest that the colour scheme presented here is reasonably accurate?

 

 

Airfix's kit has a model showing 111002 with RLM 82 and 81 but the contrast between the two colours is much greater.

 

Based on you mentioning the RLM 82 is somewhat darker, and how it appears from images, I'm thinking about mixing a little RLM 83 into the 82 to make it a bit darker. I'll apply that all over the upper surfaces, then dry brush some RLM 81 on.

 

Some sources say the came was applied over the Reich Defence bands - I have yet to ascertain the accuracy of this.

 

Ben

Edited April 29, 2018 by wellsprop

[David E. Brown]

Hi Ben,

 

Yes, that profile of Yellow 8 is arguably the best representation of the scheme to date, though the markings require refinement.

 

Since both Red 1 and Red were JG 7 aircraft, they originally wore the unit's tail band, and, crest.  These markings, and their original numbers, were painted out once the aircraft were received by NJG 11.  The painted-out crest was the ideal location for the unit to paint the aircraft's new number. Indeed, except for one B-1a aircraft (WNr.110306, so-called "Red 9"), photos show that 10./NJG 11's Me 262s  had their numbers painted in the forward fuselage position:

 

Red 1 - 1123?? - A-1a (previously White 2 of 1./JG 7)

Red 2 - 112372 - A-1a (previously White 7(?) of 1./JG7)

Red 8 - 110305 - B-1a

Uncoded - 110306 - B-1a (no photographic evidence showing a "Red 9")

Red 10 - 110635 - B-1a

Red 12 - 111980 - B-1a

Uncoded - 110165 - B-1a (duel-seat trainer)

 

Cheers,

 

David

[occa]

The Australian war museum has an Me 262 coded 'X' in which is still in original paints, maybe that is in the same colours ?

 

One can find a few colour photos on the net

[Michael louey]

On 4/29/2018 at 10:31 PM, occa said:

The Australian war museum has an Me 262 coded 'X' in which is still in original paints, maybe that is in the same colours ?

 

One can find a few colour photos on the net

As Occa mentioned, the AWM Me 262 does have it's original Luftwaffe colours but it's been overpainted a number of times. The AWM has attempted to rub back some layers to show earlier paint jobs (including early post war ones). Still hard to work out what paints you're seeing in person. There are comprehensive analysis works in one of the Japo books as well as Brett Green's book on the Me 262.

 

Here's a few recent pictures from the AWM when I popped in a few weeks back:

 

 

 

Regards

 

Michael

[Sturmovik]

I don´t know if the Red 2 of now is painted in its original camouflage, but if it was, the you should paint your Me 262 in RLM 82 (photo taken by me).

[Paul J]

Use A type roundels of appropriate size and hand paint over them to give them that 'roughly applied' look.