gas station B-17G restoration

[72modeler]

There was some discussion the other day regarding the B-17G-105-VE, 44-8570 that was displayed above a Milwaukie, Oregon gas station since 1947. The original owners have since passed away, the gas station was closed and moved to a new location, and the Fortress has been removed from its pylons and is being restored to flight. I found a website that has several detail photos of the current restoration status, and I thought you might find them enlightening. The top turret was donated to the CAF's Sentimental Journey, and at some point the original Cheyenne tail turret was removed before the airplane was put on display. Note the large areas of the interior that were bare of primer, with stringers, longerons, and some smaller structures being finished in different colors of primer- some yellow and some green; note also the different primer colors of the internal wing structures, engine cowlings, and nacelles. You can also see what looks like either dull dark green or interior green in the cockpit/nose compartments. Sure would be nice to have another B-17 in the air! The history of this Fort as well as how it got to Oregon is a very interesting and entertaining story- I have attached a link to the sequence of events. Enjoy!

Mike

 

http://447.insidetrackmagazine.com/b-17/lacey-lady/

 

https://offbeatoregon.com/1601d.bomber-gas-station-375.html

[Jure Miljevic]

Interesting photos, Mike. It is certainly encouraging to see a population of flyable B-17s growing instead of declining. I still keep a grainy b/w photo of this particular B-17, published decades ago, that I clipped out of one of our newspapers as a teenager.

I am not certain about cockpit colours, but I think at least pilots' seats should be in Bronze Green. This colour has been described as slightly darker and a bit more on a blue side than Medium Green 42. Cheers

Jure

[tomprobert]

I've been following this restoration too via their Facebook page. It's a real time-warp and an excellent resource for how these Forts rolled off the production line. 

 

The nose restoration began a few years before the rest of the aircraft was removed from the gas station. Hence, the interior colours are not as it was when built - instead it's been painted interior green like so many other warbirds to aid its long term preservation. From the factory, it would have been in natural metal. 

 

The cockpit is indeed dark dull (sometimes referred to as bronze) green and was the only painted part of the interior. Standard US Interior Green was never used in the Fortress - as this original example proves. 

[72modeler]

Tomprobert,

 

I think the nose section with the bombardier's and navigator's stations, the cockpit, and the radio operator's station were painted either bronze green initially and later on dull dark green as well as the cockpit. I have attached a link to the excellent IPMS Stockholm article on U.S. WW2 aircraft interiors, which is a highly regarded reference. The B-17 had major areas in dull dark/bronze green, unpainted aluminum, and chromate primer, as did B-25's and B-26's.  Photos and videos of B-17F Memphis Belle and B-17F Boeing Bee during their restorations seem to show the same finish. Like you, I have been following the progress on Lacey Lady, and I hope she will be flying again soon. I understand that a replacement top turret has been located, but no word on the tail turret, which was removed early on.

Mike

 

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/02/stuff_eng_interior_colours_us_part2.htm

[tomprobert]

Mike,

 

I've too read the IPMS Stockholm references to the B-17. I too, however, have spent many years researching the B-17, and from my investigations it was only the exposed metal in the cockpit that was painted DDG. The rest of the interior from nose to tail was left in natural metal. 

 

I'll dig out more details over the weekend - plus pictures! 

[72modeler]

8 hours ago, tomprobert said:

Mike,

 

I've too read the IPMS Stockholm references to the B-17. I too, however, have spent many years researching the B-17, and from my investigations it was only the exposed metal in the cockpit that was painted DDG. The rest of the interior from nose to tail was left in natural metal. 

 

I'll dig out more details over the weekend - plus pictures! 

If you don't have this article, taken from the erection and maintenance manual for the B-17, it might shed more light on the subject. I have posted a link to it below. Very few surviving B-17's actually saw combat, or were very late production versions, so aren't  very reliable color references.

Mike

 

http://www.gblume.com/gallery/boeing-b-17-paint-colors/

[B-17 man]

On 4/27/2018 at 6:08 PM, tomprobert said:

Mike,

 

I've too read the IPMS Stockholm references to the B-17. I too, however, have spent many years researching the B-17, and from my investigations it was only the exposed metal in the cockpit that was painted DDG. The rest of the interior from nose to tail was left in natural metal. 

 

I'll dig out more details over the weekend - plus pictures! 

I’m in agreement with this! That old ipms article is crap. Natural metal throughout except the cockpit! That said, this can be a can of worms. It’s few and far between but I have seen evidence of painted interiors in wartime 17’s. But have seen far more pics showing natural metal. F and E models had sound deadening padding in the nose, cockpit and then the radio room. The radio room being mostly Emodels though. But the waist area was always natural metal. 

   And as far as the erection manual goes, take that with a grain of salt, there was a war on and there were three plants turning out finished B-17's and many more making sub assemblies, not everyone got the memo, and the memo changed often. 

[72modeler]

7 hours ago, B-17 man said:

I’m in agreement with this! That old ipms article is crap. Natural metal throughout except the cockpit! That said, this can be a can of worms. It’s few and far between but I have seen evidence of painted interiors in wartime 17’s. But have seen far more pics showing natural metal. F and E models had sound deadening padding in the nose, cockpit and then the radio room. The radio room being mostly Emodels though. But the waist area was always natural metal. 

   And as far as the erection manual goes, take that with a grain of salt, there was a war on and there were three plants turning out finished B-17's and many more making sub assemblies, not everyone got the memo, and the memo changed often. 

That's why I posted what I had found, as I am NO B-17 authority, and thought the description of the finish applied to the interior of the nose, cockpit, and radio compartment was revealing. I also think, and have no definite reference material on this, that the late production B-17's probably didn't follow the manual, as the shelf life of a B-17 was pretty short and why waste man hours and material on an airplane that was only expected to have  30-day lifespan anyway? Then, as many of you with more knowledge and reference material than  I possess  have pointed out- there's also the other plants that produced Forts for Boeing, so who can really say? Like @Troy Smith always reminds us- "Never trust a profile without a photo!" The manual I posted was for the B-17F and was most likely different than the one for the B-17G. I would hesitate to call the IPMS Stockholm interior article crap, as much of what was written has been confirmed by more recent research and by authorities on the subject. Like the Thorpe books on IJA/IJN colors and markings, more recent research has shown there to be errors in what was written, but are still very useful resource works for us model builders. Might you be able to share link or the photos you mention to help the rest of us get a more accurateB-17  interior?

Mike

[B-17 man]

Lol, just because I don’t have a meaningless profile pic doesn’t make what I’m saying any less accurate. 

[72modeler]

2 hours ago, B-17 man said:

Lol, just because I don’t have a meaningless profile pic doesn’t make what I’m saying any less accurate. 

I don't believe that's what I said. Since I have been  an observer and sometimes a contributor on BM, I have discovered two facts- there is always somebody who knows more than me  or has better references, no matter how  much I think I know regarding a specific airplane, model, or topic; and secondly, I have always been very careful to quote a print reference or photo, if possible, when I post, rather than saying "Take it from me" There is so much variety in how B-17 interiors were finished, evidently, added to restored airplanes which many times are finished for longevity and/or corrosion control versus original coatings, for anyone to say conclusively what is the norm. I was just asking what source/s you might have had that would contradict or confirm what is already known or believed about B-17 interior colors. No disrespect or pontification intended, I can assure you. (My comment about profiles was in reference to some profiles or profile sites whose colors and markings are highly questionable or fanciful and have no actual photo to back up the illustration- I bet I'm not the only aircraft modeler who has been badly bitten by a scheme in a profile that turned out to be inaccurate or a figment of artistic license! Troy was very much on the mark regarding his comment on profiles that I quoted, at least in my opinion- your mileage might vary, as they say. )

Mike

 

Now, on to a much more important B-17 issue- when is Airfix going to give us a new-tool B-17E/F to go with their B-17G?

[B-17 man]

As far as my references go, it would be almost pointless for me to post pics here. I’ve been a fan of the B-17 since I was 10, (39 now) and have been studying as many books as I could always get my hands on before the internet. Now with google image and YouTube there is almost limitless visual references out there. 

 

Sorry if I came off rude, but I just can’t help sometimes seeing it done blatantly wrong, offering to help and basically being told off. Some people get really pissy about it. Just had a guy saying he paints the prop cuffs aluminum/silver on his mustangs. I asked why he said personal preference , I replied that they are made of rubber. No response after that.