USAF grey in Vietnam

[speedbird]

Just a couple of quick questions guys if I may? Can anyone confirm that the Cessna O-2 was ADC grey with white upper wings? Also can anyone give me the FS number and name of the grey used on green/green/tan aircraft such as phantoms and corsairs?

cheers 

 

[bentwaters81tfw]

FS16622 Light Grey Xtracolour XA1140 or Halfords BMW Alpine White if you like rattlecans.

[Giorgio N]

The O-2 could and could not be in ADC grey... Could and could not in the sense that ADC interceptors used grey FS 16473 (gloss) while the O-2s were painted in both this and the matt 36473.

The official scheme for the FAC configuration used 36473, initially with white upper wings and later in overall grey. The scheme for aircrafts based in the continental US used 16473 overall. I have to check when this scheme was introduced as may well be later than the original one. There were also camouflage schemes but the ones I have are too late for Vietnam (I'm trying to track down as many variants of the T.O.1-1-4 as possible but still miss the '70s ones). Last but not least, O-2s used for psychological warfare were often in overall black.

Of course the distinction between gloss and matt paints is of less importance when it comes to models as a final clear coat of the desired type can easily change the finish.

[speedbird]

I’m probably been a bit daft, but the picture of the O-2 on the Airfix packaging looks white are a very very light grey, much lighter than ADC grey.

[janneman36]

On 18-4-2018 at 9:56 PM, bentwaters81tfw said:

FS16622 Light Grey Xtracolour XA1140 or Halfords BMW Alpine White if you like rattlecans.

That is the gray for the sea color scheme ...

My 1/48 L19 should also be painted in the 16473 color according to the instructions af that kit...

Mayde it helps!

 

 

Cheers, Jan

[bentwaters81tfw]

16473 is Humbrol 146 gloss a/c grey and that is not SEA underside grey

16622 is Humbrol 28 camoflage grey or above as stated

[e8n2]

Shouldn't it be 36622, a flat color like the rest of the aircraft?  My 1978 basic T.O. 1-1-4 shows all Vietnam schemes with 36622 for the undersides.  It also shows that O-2s used in FAC opertations are to be overall 36473, and CONUS operated aircraft would be in 16473, the same as ADC gray.  Georgio, PM me if you would like a copy of the 21 March 78, chg 21 version.  All pdf and of course now it doesn't exist anymore.

Later,

Dave

[Giorgio N]

6 hours ago, e8n2 said:

Shouldn't it be 36622, a flat color like the rest of the aircraft?  My 1978 basic T.O. 1-1-4 shows all Vietnam schemes with 36622 for the undersides.  It also shows that O-2s used in FAC opertations are to be overall 36473, and CONUS operated aircraft would be in 16473, the same as ADC gray.  Georgio, PM me if you would like a copy of the 21 March 78, chg 21 version.  All pdf and of course now it doesn't exist anymore.

Later,

Dave

 

Thanks for the offer Dave ! I have Change 21, but this is dated Dec. 19th 1985. Is your copy dated the same ? If it's older I would sure be interested !

[e8n2]

Chg 21 to the 21 March 1978 basic T.O. 1-1-4 is dated 19 Dec 85.  I first got my (printed) copy that came with Chg 19 from 10 January 1985.  The last Change to the 1978 basic was Chg 40 dated 30 July 1993.  I have the printed edition only from Chg 19 up except for the pdf version with Chg 21.  Then came the May 1994 Basic and then extinction.  Somewhere out there is an 1973 basic.  I've seen it once and have a copy of a page from it which has an F-4 in Vietnam camouflage with Gloss black undersides that go halfway up the sides and also a gloss black fin and ruder.  Apparently some aircraft were actually in this scheme, but not for very long.  I've also seen a copy of the Navy's version of 1-1-4 from the 50s, but haven't found it on-line.  It is quite interesting as well.

Later,

Dave

[tony.t]

There is no such thing as ADC grey - it is plain and simple Aircraft Gray and was a USAF default colour under TO 1-1-4 if no other was specified. Its FS number was 16473, a shiny pale grey with a hint of blue (and the manufacturers have confirmed it contains a small amount of blue).

 

The O-1 and O-2 used 36473 COIN Gray, the same colour as Aircraft Gray but flat.

 

cheers

 

Tony 

 

 

[Giorgio N]

9 hours ago, e8n2 said:

Chg 21 to the 21 March 1978 basic T.O. 1-1-4 is dated 19 Dec 85.  I first got my (printed) copy that came with Chg 19 from 10 January 1985.  The last Change to the 1978 basic was Chg 40 dated 30 July 1993.  I have the printed edition only from Chg 19 up except for the pdf version with Chg 21.  Then came the May 1994 Basic and then extinction.  Somewhere out there is an 1973 basic.  I've seen it once and have a copy of a page from it which has an F-4 in Vietnam camouflage with Gloss black undersides that go halfway up the sides and also a gloss black fin and ruder.  Apparently some aircraft were actually in this scheme, but not for very long.  I've also seen a copy of the Navy's version of 1-1-4 from the 50s, but haven't found it on-line.  It is quite interesting as well.

Later,

Dave

 

Thanks Dave, then I have that revision.

I'd love to get the 1973 one and also the original 1978 version ! The schemes you mention sound very interesting, I'd love to see a Phantom in that scheme. Have to say that some of the schemes found in the TOs don't seem to have ever been applied even if an official scheme was approved (camouflaged F-106 for example), wonder if the same happened to this Phantom scheme or there actually were aircrafts painted this way ?

[e8n2]

13 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

 

Thanks Dave, then I have that revision.

I'd love to get the 1973 one and also the original 1978 version ! The schemes you mention sound very interesting, I'd love to see a Phantom in that scheme. Have to say that some of the schemes found in the TOs don't seem to have ever been applied even if an official scheme was approved (camouflaged F-106 for example), wonder if the same happened to this Phantom scheme or there actually were aircrafts painted this way ?

I think one of the Squadron/Signal Vietnam books has a small photo in that one scheme.  What was surprising to me was what was NOT in 1-1-4.  No B-1s, no F-16s except for the tactical tail number display, and none of the late wrap around schemes for the B-1 and B-52.

Later,

Dave

[e8n2]

14 hours ago, tony.t said:

There is no such thing as ADC grey - it is plain and simple Aircraft Gray and was a USAF default colour under TO 1-1-4 if no other was specified. Its FS number was 16473, a shiny pale grey with a hint of blue (and the manufacturers have confirmed it contains a small amount of blue).

 

The O-1 and O-2 used 36473 COIN Gray, the same colour as Aircraft Gray but flat.

 

cheers

 

Tony 

 

 

It was a commonly applied name because prior to a later change in either the 1973 or 1978 basic 1-1-4, aluminum lacquer paint was the standard paint for ALL USAF aircraft, ADC fighters being the lone exceptions.  The 1978 basic refers to the "Former System" and "Standard System", the Standard System being when everything switched over to 16473.  A copy of the 1964 basic for 1-1-4 is available from the IPMS/UK USAF SIG website, which is where I got my copy.

Later,

Dave

[tony.t]

3 hours ago, e8n2 said:

It was a commonly applied name because prior to a later change in either the 1973 or 1978 basic 1-1-4, aluminum lacquer paint was the standard paint for ALL USAF aircraft, ADC fighters being the lone exceptions.  The 1978 basic refers to the "Former System" and "Standard System", the Standard System being when everything switched over to 16473.  A copy of the 1964 basic for 1-1-4 is available from the IPMS/UK USAF SIG website, which is where I got my copy.

Later,

Dave

16473 was still always officially called Aircraft Gray. 

ADCom aircraft switched to polyurethanes first because of its superior resistance to corrosion and reduced drag, at a slight weight increase because of the use of extra primers. It was also introduced by other aircraft in the 1960s, including some RF-101s, F-4s, C-130s and helicopters inter alia, operated by TAC et al which had nothing whatsoever to do with ADC.

16473 Aircraft Gray was the replacement default colour for aluminium, and yes it took some time to reach the SAC tanker fleet.

 

Paint finishes are a fascinating subject.

 

Tony

 

 

 

 

[Giorgio N]

46 minutes ago, tony.t said:

16473 was still always officially called Aircraft Gray.

 

 

I've always understood that FS colours don't have names, they are only referred to by a generic name and their number. In my copies of TO-1-1-4 16473 is simply referred to as "grey No.16473", with all other colours similarly referred to by generic names, like "green, No.34079", "tan, No.34219" and so on.

Was 16473 given a name at some point ?

Edited April 23, 2018 by Giorgio N

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

It measures green towards yellow rather than blue, interestingly.

[tony.t]

1 hour ago, Giorgio N said:

 

I've always understood that FS colours don't have names, they are only referred to by a generic name and their number. In my copies of TO-1-1-4 16473 is simply referred to as "grey No.16473", with all other colours similarly referred to by generic names, like "green, No.34079", "tan, No.34219" and so on.

Was 16473 given a name at some point ?

The colour started life as ANA 512 Aircraft Gray, which gecame FED-STD 16473 Aircraft Gray during the cross-over in 1956 and then just plain FS 16473. 

 

Tony

[e8n2]

19 hours ago, tony.t said:

It was also introduced by other aircraft in the 1960s, including some RF-101s, F-4s, C-130s...

Paint finishes are a fascinating subject.

 

Tony

Actually the first AF F-4s were painted in the Navy scheme of Light Gull Gray over White, these now being referred to as FS 36440 over FS 17875.  That scheme lasted until things started to heat up in Vietnam and the AF wanted their own scheme that was felt to me more appropriate to the region they were operating in.  In the mid 80s the Guard F-4s used for Air Defense went over to FS 16473.  Some aircraft used for test purposes may have been finished earlier in 16473.

Later,

Dave

 

Do a photo search on Chilean Navy CASA C-212s.  There is at least one done in the same scheme as the Iranian P-3Fs.  Talk about a fascinating subject!

[tony.t]

e8n2, I'm talking about Eglin-based Systems Command F-4s, many of which received x6473 Aircraft Gray finishes in the late 1960s. IIRC they were satin 26473 rather than high gloss 16473.

 

16473 on interceptor F-4s started in 1977-78, beginning with the 57th FIS and 119th FIG; though the Black Knights' machines were more like 26473 - the final coat was some kind of clear lacquer over the base colour. With the switch of PDM to CASA Getafe they received 16473 polyurethane finishes, as did CONUS interceptor jets being depot overhauled at Ogden etc.

 

There were TAC RF-101s recce Voodoos in Aircraft Gray - 16473 type finish, not Navy - in the early-mid 1960s. ARRS also began painting some helicopters and Hercules in this finish around that time.

 

cheers

 

Tony

 

 

Edited April 25, 2018 by tony.t
extra info for clarity

[Steve Collins]

On 4/20/2018 at 10:36 PM, e8n2 said:

Shouldn't it be 36622, a flat color like the rest of the aircraft?  My 1978 basic T.O. 1-1-4 shows all Vietnam schemes with 36622 for the undersides.  It also shows that O-2s used in FAC opertations are to be overall 36473, and CONUS operated aircraft would be in 16473, the same as ADC gray.  Georgio, PM me if you would like a copy of the 21 March 78, chg 21 version.  All pdf and of course now it doesn't exist anymore.

Later,

Dave

The SEA scheme definitely used 36622 as the underside color.  There may have been shiny spots, but gloss colors were not used.

 

Steve

[e8n2]

10 hours ago, Steve Collins said:

The SEA scheme definitely used 36622 as the underside color.  There may have been shiny spots, but gloss colors were not used.

 

Steve

I was stationed at RAF Woodbridge from March 75 to March 77, and got up close and personal with the F-4Ds of the 78 TFS.  I know it is supposed to be light gray, and a very light gray at that, but looking at them it sure did seem like white.  Must have been the fading factor for the underside finish.  Even on cloudy, rainy days, it still looked white.  Oh well, such is life.  Good thing I have some bottles of 36622 around.

Later,

Dave

[bentwaters81tfw]

Before anyone gets too hot under the collar, Xtracolour comes as 16622 as a gloss, because it's preferable to apply decals to a gloss finish. All my SEA scheme stuff ends up with a matt varnish finish. Happy now?  

[Seawinder]

16 hours ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

Before anyone gets too hot under the collar, Xtracolour comes as 16622 as a gloss, because it's preferable to apply decals to a gloss finish. All my SEA scheme stuff ends up with a matt varnish finish. Happy now?  

It's going to take several more days for my ire to cool.

 

Seriously, there are other options which may be easier for folks located in other parts of the world: Mr. Color C311, Mr. Hobby Color H311, Model Master Acrylic 4766, Model Master Spray Enamel 1933, Mr.Paint 104; there are probably others.

[bentwaters81tfw]

1 minute ago, Seawinder said:

It's going to take several more days for my ire to cool.

 

Seriously, there are other options which may be easier for folks located in other parts of the world: Mr. Color C311, Mr. Hobby Color H311, Model Master Acrylic 4766, Model Master Spray Enamel 1933, Mr.Paint 104; there are probably others.

Indeed, but the OP is in the UK, and Xtracolour is probably the easiest for him to obtain. More exotic products are not so easy to come by out in the sticks.

[Seawinder]

3 minutes ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

Indeed, but the OP is in the UK, and Xtracolour is probably the easiest for him to obtain. More exotic products are not so easy to come by out in the sticks.

Indeed, but many people read this forum from other locales; I was just trying to offer some possibly useful information that might be pertinent to them. Just FMI, are Gunze paints readily available in the UK?