More Help with RAAF Catalinas particularly Ordnance ?

[Sydhuey]

Disregard previous post , did a bit of research and Voila ! US 500 Ib bombs with single and double lug ,

I would have deleted the post but no delete button!

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Hello @Sydhuey you can go back hit the edit button and change or erase whatever is in your post that you wish to. 

[Magpie22]

8 hours ago, Ed Russell said:

 

 

Yes indeed they could carry bombs on the four underwing hard points. Locally made ones were British pattern but US bombs were used also. They would be 250 or 500lb depending on range required to reach target and local supply situation.

 

While this statement is basically correct, it seems to be describing only the four permanent, heavy duty, bomb racks. The PBY-5 also had another hard point on each wing for the fitment of external bomb racks. If no torpedo was being carried, this increased the number of bomb racks available to eight. There were also light duty stores racks that could be fitted if required.

• The four outer, Mk 51-7, bomb racks were fitted internally in the wing center section, outboard of the engine nacelle. These racks remained installed on the aircraft at all times. Access was through openings in the wing under surface. These could carry loads up to 1000 lb.
• To carry loads up to 2,000 lb, external bomb racks could be fitted below the center section, outboard of the wing struts and inboard of the internal racks. These look a bit like an inverted 'U' channel. The Mk 13 torpedo fitted up inside the channel and the torpedo was restrained by strops which passed under it and were retained by two Mk 51-7 bomb releases in each side of the 'U'. With the removal of items specific to torpedo carriage, These racks could also be used for carrying bombs under the Mk 51-7 installed in each side of the 'U'. Each rack could carry two 1,000 lb bombs, although two 500 lb bombs was a more normal fitment in RAAF service.
• Provision was also made for the installation of four Mk 42 light weight store racks. These were installed externally, under the center section, two in tandem, under each wing. They could carry up to 300 lb each. A small bomb container carrying twelve fragmentation bombs or eight incendiaries could be fitted on each rack.

The D.C. 250 lb Mk. VIII, mentioned above, by Syd, had the following dimensions:

Body: cylinder 38" long and 11" diameter.

Tail assembly: Mk.III or MK.IV, 18" long.

 

The D.C. 450 lb Mk. VII, mentioned above, by Syd, had the following dimensions:

Overall length: 67". This includes both the tail assembly and nose fairing.

Body: cylinder 28" long and 18" diameter. Semi-hemisphical nose cap fitted

Tail assembly: Mk.III or MK.IV, 18" long.

 

HTH. If you want drawings of the above DCs, PM me.

 

Peter

[Ed Russell]

23 hours ago, Sydhuey said:

Torpedos, both US and UK types trialled but not used operationally .  

Mines , the main weapon of the RAAF Cat latter in the war

To make a really representational  RAAF Catalina, according to most of the histories I have read, mines are the most common load.

Bombs and depth charges less so. Torpedoes, apparently never - I never knew that but not surprising really as the Catalina was probably no match for a well handled small warship or even a decently armed merchantman.

The pursuit of realism is nice but there's always someone to come along and try to correct you.......... I built a quite nice Sunderland and intended to put Red Roo depth charges on it - that's what they were made were for..........

But a couple of my UK based friends kindly pointed out that the 450lb DCs were inappropriate for that late war colour scheme................ I still haven't got around to making the 250lb ones yet.

It just shows sometimes too much guff gets in the way of enjoyable modelling! It's good to see your Catalina is on the move again after that many years - let's hope it gets finished this time.

 

Edit - A simple solution, and quite realistic, is to have no external ordnance at all - quite a number of Catalina flights were flown as ASR looking for downed airmen or intelligence sorties in support of behind-the-lines forces. Maximum range and/or endurance was more important than offensive capability for these flights

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Hello @Magpie22 & @Ed Russell thank you for the detailed posts and i appreciate all offers of help. I have a couple days of life interrupting so I have time to think about what all my options are. I will have to figure this out though. I am torn lately between ordnance or no ordnance with more and more of my builds.

 

Dennis

[Ed Russell]

4 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

 between ordnance or no ordnance with more and more of my builds.

Ha - yes indeed. When I was a kid I used to try and put as many carefully researched bombs and rockets on as possible. The Fairchild A-10 and Piper Enforcer were my favourites. These days a more measured approach is favoured, particularly if a plane has clean lines to emphasise.

[stevehnz]

if I might be so bold as to jump the thread sideways for a moment while we're talking depth charges, I've read of RNZAF Corsairs using depth charges as blast bombs, are either of the DCs under discussion the same type?

Steve.

[LDSModeller]

14 minutes ago, stevehnz said:

if I might be so bold as to jump the thread sideways for a moment while we're talking depth charges, I've read of RNZAF Corsairs using depth charges as blast bombs, are either of the DCs under discussion the same type?

Steve.

Hi Steve,

 

US 450lb DC used by RNZAF with the Corsair.

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

 

[Finn]

Here is one with two different types of mines:

 

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C296466

 

as for no ordnance, it is possible that maybe only a couple of small (250lb or less) bombs would be carried on non offensive missions in case they came across a worthwhile target.

 

Jari

[Ed Russell]

29 minutes ago, Finn said:

Here is one with two different types of mines:

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C296466

That's presumably what is referred to above by Sydhuey for single Catalina operations.

 if a single Cat was doing the mining over many nights it usually carried one of each , the British and US mines had different methods of setting them off 

In fact, that's the configuration that probably best represents the archetypical wartime RAAF Catalina "(closing) nearly every important enemy-held harbour".

[Sydhuey]

The torpedo rack mentioned by Magpie (Pete) is also what the mines were carried with, the photo of the Catalina with 2 x different mines the one under the left wing looks to be a US Mk 25 @2000 Ib , the one under the Right wing is a British Mk IX mine @ about 1800 Ib.

 

From

Mines Away! The Significance of U.S. Army Air Forces Minelaying in

World War II By Major John S. Chilstrom.

 

Initially flying from Australian bases at Darwin and Cairns, then from captured island airfields,

three squadrons of RAAF PBY-5 Catalinas laid mines in key enemy harbors in the Southwest Pacific.

Australian aerial mining began April 22, 1943 when eight aircraft laid sixteen magnetic mines at

Kavieng, New Ireland. Those mines, and others at Lorengau in the Admiralty Islands, convinced the

Japanese to abandon fleet achorages there after mines sank five ships and damaged seven Others. In

August 1943 the RAAF flew over 1,000 miles to attack the headquarters for Japan.s Second Southern

Expeditionary Fleet at Surabaya. Their mines sank seven ships, and damaged eleven. On this, and

other, long-range flights, the Catalinas extended their reach by refueling with U.S. Navy seaplane

tenders on the return route. For the next two years the Australians flew missions throughout the

Netherlands East Indies, including New Guinea, Halmahera, Celebes, Java, and Borneo. Additionally, in

1944, they laid mines to support amphibious landings in the Carolines, Marshalls, and Philippine

Islands. Ultimately the RAAF extended their reach as far north as the Chinese coast, while still mining

all major harbors in the East Indies.

The PBY-5 Catalinas used by the RAAF were amphibious aircraft that provided good results.

The aircraft was well suited to minelaying, with long range and a payload of 2,000-4,000 pounds. Out of

1,130 successful sorties that laid 2,498 mines, the Australians lost nine aircraft, a 0.8 percent loss rate.

Altogether, the postwar U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey estimated these mines sank 90 ships total ling

250,000 tons, or approximately 40 percent of Japanese losses in the Netherlands East Indies.

The report said mine laying Catalina's were 10 x times more effective than conventional bombers

and attack aircraft in the anti shipping role in the SW Pacific.  

[Magpie22]

Syd,

 

You beat me to it! I was composing a very similar message when yours popped up. 😭  Unfortunately, the torpedo crutch is not included in the Monogram kit. You have to scratch build it if you go down that path. Many air dropped mines were based on torpedo bodies so that, and their weight of over 1,000 lb, made using the torpedo crutch mandatory.

 

Adding to your data about mines dropped. Of the 2,500 mines dropped, approx 1,900 were US mines and approx 600 were UK mines. I believe that all were magnetic, apart from the 365 Mark 13 Mod 5 acoustic mines that were initially used. These weighed just on 1,000 lbs and may have been fitted on the permanent MK 51-7 racks.

 

Peter

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Wow thats some good info guys, Thank you very much. I have a lot to think on and figure out. There are definitely some good photos here and great load-out options. Just need to figure out which way to go ? 

 

Dennis

[Biggles81]

Further to this great discussion if you are interested in A24-59 in Jan 1944 as you stated earlier and you want an authentic weapons load for it in Jan 44 you have the choice of the following per missions flown that month by that airframe:

 

14 Jan 1944 - 1 x Mk V and 1 x Mk XIII mine (sea mining missions in the East Indies)

16 Jan 1944 - same as above

20 Jan 1944 - same as above

26 Jan 1944 - 4 x 250lb Depth Charges (ASW patrol)

30 Jan 1944 - 4 x 250ln Depth Charges (ASW patrol)

 

The aircraft then left for a 240 hourly service on 2 Feb 1944 at 1 FBMU

 

Other aircraft in the squadron also regularly carried strike loads around this time of consisting of 6 x 250lb bombs, 2 x 500lb bombs, 20 x 20lb Frag and 10 x 30lb Incendaries.

 

All this is available via the National Archives of Australia (www.naa.gov.au) in the 20 Sqn Unit History if you want to examine it further for more details.

 

Edited June 28, 2018 by Biggles81

[Vanroon]

I have posted here a photograph of a Cat being loaded.

Captioned;

Catalina. A24-101 PBY-5A RK+G 42Sqd Leyte 6-1945. 09.jpg

 

The general look of this Cat is in line with images seen at the Darwin Catalina Memorial.

Grant

[Magpie22]

An interesting shot, Grant. While technically she was a PBY-5A, she has been converted to PBY-5. You can just make out the torpedo crutch under the wing , just outboard of the front strut. She was lost early the next month when she suffered hull damage at Balikpappen and was abandoned.

Peter

Edited June 27, 2018 by Magpie22
oops, forgot to use an upper case 'G' for Grant.