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More Help with RAAF Catalinas particularly Ordnance ?


Corsairfoxfouruncle

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Ok so Im considering restarting work on my oldest shelf queen. Its an old Monogram PBY-5 non-amphib. I started in 2003. Im doing it in RAAF camouflage. Im doing a night harassement Catalina. Similar to the Black cats. I know the colors are RAAF night, RAAF Dk. Ocean blue, over Matt black. I equate the colors to EDSG, USN non spec. Sea blue, over Matt Black.

     I know Red Roo do a decal set for the plane Im doing, however Ive been waiting 3 years and can never seem to scrape the $ together. It would eat about 6 months budget up in one purchase.

     What i really am looking for and need is.

    1) Roundel and code sizes in inches or CM’s ? Outer  diameter ? Inner circle diameter ? I can convert these to 1/48th. So i can make masks. 

    2) Placement locations - all 6 or just upper wings and Fuselage ? 

    3) Roundel Colors ? Which Blue is best over the white ? 

    4) What kind of antennas besides the standard radio wires would they have carried ? Similar to USN or RN? Or completely different. Im not sure if i should use the search antennas included in the kit that mount under the wing ? 

 

Any help or info. someone can provide me moves this project closer to completion ? I did recieve info pertaining to the camouflage patterns, and colors about 9 months ago when i queried about that. Which went along way to moving this along. Thank you in advance. 

 

Dennis 

Edited by Corsairfoxfouruncle
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RAAF Catalina colours are a minefield, choose the actual serial of the aircraft you are doing and timeframe and work out colours from there , Roundels only upper wings and fuselage in the 5/3 ratio (white 3/5th of roundel diameter), once again work out the serial you want and go from there , some had the Fuselage roundel ratio down to  5/1 with a much smaller white, and the upper wing roundels sometimes had the white over painted with medium Grey (same as Sqn codes), Std ASV antenna fit with a large homing receiver array antenna under each wing and the smaller homing transmitter array outboard on the right wing. From mid 1944 eyeball nose turrets started to be fitted and .50's in Blisters from mid 43. Late ASV Radar radome above cockpit fitted to PB2B-1 (late PBY-5) (A24-200-206) and later big tail PB2B-2's (300-309 and 350-386), most RAAF cats eventually ran the fishtail exhaust as well.

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Dennis, pick a couple of serials you are interested in and I will give you an estimate of colours and markings and equip fit for that particular aircraft, but to ask what colour are RAAF Cats, how long is a piece of string !  

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Hello @Sydhuey ... Yes i was rather afraid that colors would be the proverbial can of worms. My Catalina’s Serial # is A24-59. It is coded “RB@L” Squadron is presumed #20. The timeframe would be January ‘44. From the limited photo’s i have of the subject the upper roundels do look to be Blue/Med.Sea.Grey.

      Are the code letters the same size as RN/RAF codes ? And Fin Flash height/width is another question. Would the blue be Standard insignia blue ? Or something specific to Australia ? Im trying to replicate the Catalina to honour the crews that placed there faith in her to survive. It may not be 100% correct but I will try to get it as close as I can in the end. One of my main reasons for shelving the model was because of serious lack of data. All the help is greatly appreciated.  

 

Dennis

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I don't agree with the colours on the Aussie decal sheets from the pictures available she looks over all night with disruptive pattern Grey only on top of wing, serials medium Grey 6", Sqn codes pale blue 24" ( the RAAF changed the colour to white in Jun 44 as the pale blue fades to white anyway), Fin Flash 24" by 12' (6 and 6)  , upper wing roundels 5/3 48" white over painted with Medium Grey same as serials (for night ops), fuselage roundels 24" with reduced white centres 5/1 ratio (the fuselage roundels up close look like a triple roundel as the white is reduced so you end up with the outer 2/5 th dull insignia blue , then 2/5th overpainted so the Dull insignia Blue is a little lighter then the 1/5rh White)  (these reduced size white in the fuselage roundels were not an official marking but done at the Sqn's to reduce the white on night ops similar to the grey in the wing roundels) ,  she had a single gun nose turret and .50's in the blisters and the std ASV antenna setup I mentioned before. the lower hull and floats are painted with a coat of lanoline to reduce corrosion so it looks like a third colour on the lower hull, I just paint my models with semi gloss clear on the lower hull and floats to give the gloss look of the lanoline.

I think the Grey on the Top wing is EDSG , Peter Malone thinks it is lighter like a DSG or Medium sea Grey, up to you for your interpretation.

The RAAF colours are a weird mix  ,

What the RAAF call Ocean Blue (Grey?)is a mix of 3 3/4 Gal EDSG, 1 Gal Matt Dull Blue, 1/4 Gal Matt Black

and the Matt Black (Night) 4 gal Matt Black, 3/4 Gal Matt Dull Blue and 1/4 Gal Matt  White

to me I don't think the Sqn's went to that much trouble , Matt Black and EDSG or DSG . 

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Hi Dennis and Syd,

 

I think Syd nailed it pretty well, but I do have a few points where I don't see eye to eye with him. It's OK, WWIII is not about to break out, as Syd and I often exchange views on RAAF subjects. :jabber::D. We don't always agree. :think: The subject of the camouflage applied to RAAF Cats, which varied markedly depending on their source of delivery and, as the RAAF changed their schemes over the years of their service, is a quite complicated one. To further confuse matters, many of the changes were initiated at operational unit level and never recorded in official files.

 

These early lend lease Cats, (as distinct for the initial batch of Model 28-5MA aircraft ordered from Consolidated, and the next batch taken from a RCAF contract), arrived in Australia in the first half of 1943 finished in the USN Blue Gray and Light Gray scheme. Initially some had the Light Gray over-painted in RAAF K3/179 Night Black. This proved effective, and most were then painted overall in Night Black. However, when viewed from above, the Cats did tend to stand out, particularly if flying over cloud. To try and break up the outline of the wings, areas of grey paint were applied to the wing upper surfaces. As Syd says the shade of grey used is open to conjecture. I base my opinion on several descriptions given to me by those involved at the time. The object was to have a grey similar to the clouds, which is fairly light when moonlit. However, it would appear, based on photos, that the shade did differ from aircraft to aircraft, so I wouldn't get too uptight about it.

 

I think Syd has introduced a red herring with his paint mixes. The actual mixes he quotes are from a report about experiments with camouflaging Catalina aircraft. The colours were just given the names 'Blue' and 'Black'. They were not official RAAF colours, i.e. they had no K3 stores numbers. In late 1943 / early 1944, the RAAF introduced a colour, K3/318, called Dark Ocean Blue. It may have been based on the 'Blue' that was used in the trials mentioned above, but I have never done the mix to see if that is so. I think the mix would be much greyer than Dark Ocean Blue. Anyway, as I said, it is a red herring as it has no relevance to A24-59. Later, from June 1944, the standard colour for Cats on day ops was overall K3/177 Foliage Green, and for night ops was overall k3/179 Night Black.

 

Getting back to A24-59, RB-L. It would appear that Syd has several shots of her, but I have only the one. This was taken in March 1944 and shows her in company with A29-55, FJ-E and A24-78, FJ-J. Interestingly, each aircraft has a different camouflage. I believe her to be in overall K3/179 Night Black with grey patches on the upper wing only. The shade of grey used is up to you. Stores ident would have been 8" high in Medium Sea Grey. (I think Syd's finger slipped when he gave 6"). Codes were probably in K3/195 Sky Blue, as required by the RAAF from Jan 1943. As Syd says this faded rather quickly to an off-white. I think that the upper wing roundels are in the order of 6', not 4', white 3/5 of that. As Syd says, the white is over-painted with grey. No under wing roundels. Fuselage roundels 2', as stated by Syd. White center is 1/5 of OD. In most pics I have seen, the blue is even not of two shades, as stated by Syd. Fin flashes 24" x 12" as given by Syd.`

 

Now you have two opinions to try and sort out. Best of luck with the project,

Peter

 

 

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Dennis as you can see , Peter and I are in the same general Direction but slight variation (Peter mostly corrects my interpretations , occasionally I correct one of his ;-)) , make up your own mind out of the mix, Cats are a minefield as I said. would post pics but I don't like using hosting sites so can only describe.  and yes I meant 8" for serials.

Edited by Sydhuey
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Thanks very much Syd and Peter. All that info will definitely be reviewed and push the Cat build to completion soon. The painting of the Catalina I figured would be the proverbial can of worms. To be honest the Foliage green option was a serious thought as well. But I know the “Foliage green” discussion is very lively to say the least.    

 

Dennis

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23 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

 But I know the “Foliage green” discussion is very lively to say the least.    

 

Dennis

Foliage Green a problem? No worse than Olive Drab! :huh::banghead:

Peter

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A point of interest the upper wing grey applied to the Black to break up the Black in night ops was also applied to US Navy Black cats that went thru RAAF maintenance depots.

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Now that this build is back on the desk i need help again. Hello does anyone know if these would use strictly british bombs and torpedo’s ? Reason being they operated alongside U.S. Navy, Army, And U.S.M.C. Units would they have used U.S. Bombs and Torpedo’s as it was easier to use them ? 

Edited by Corsairfoxfouruncle
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These are 1/72 but you should be able to cobble up some in 1/48. Our instructions show them hung under a Catalina.

https://www.redroomodels.com/red-roo-resin-172/red-roo-172-450-lb-depth-charges-british-pattern/

These 450lb modified naval units were superseded by the more efficient 250lb depth charge later in the war but were available into 1942, maybe later.

The 250lb would be easy to build also

http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/wwii/sub-hunters-over-the-bay-of-biscay/

 

 

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Thanks @Ed Russell, & @Finn for the photos. They do help to a degree. I could attempt a scratch build if i had the proper dimensions and a good photograph of either the depth charges or mine. I haven't found photos of the aerial mine from the side, don't even know the correct type. So i cant do a proper search for photos ?  The aerial depth charges i have found photos and actually found resin in both 1/72nd & 1/48th scale. If i can get the money together i guess i can buy them. 

     I was curious if these cat’s ever carried standard iron bombs though ? They did fly night harassement and i guess its possible. However i haven't found any indication or photo’s to support that ? I did come across an interesting story about one night harassment mission . Where one crew dropped empty beer bottles on to the Japanese from the waist positions.

    Again thanks for your help and if anyone knows if they carried standard bombs ? Or if anyone has clear photo’s of the Depth charges, mines, or a name or type that i can research on my own ? 

 

Dennis

 

Edited by Corsairfoxfouruncle
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Dennis,

 

In the first two years of the war the RAAF carried out raids on Japanese airfields and port facilities. Targets were in New Guinea, Rabaul, and as far away as Tulagi. For this they carried iron bombs, up to eight 500 lb GP bombs, or 250 lb GP and AS bombs. As well as these, 20 lb Frags and 30 lb incendiaries were also often carried on the outer wing racks, or internally and thrown out the from the waist positions. For targets like airfields and camps, 500 lb and/or 250 lb bombs were often fitted with extended daisy cutter fuses. The photos I have seen show British pattern bombs, although US bombs may have been used as well.

Depth charges were generally carried for convoy patrols.

 

Mine laying operations started circa April 1943. This type of op was only done part time for the first year or so, approx 15 sorties a month. Bombing raids, reconnaissance, convoy patrols and supply dropping had priority.

 

Trials were even carried out with torpedoes but, as far as I am aware, they were not used operationally.

 

The beer bottles were dropped from several aircraft. After they had been emptied, (our units were 'wet' not 'dry' like yours), razor blades were taped across the open spout and they thrown from the waist position. They apparently emitted an ear piercing screech which was supposed to demoralize the Japanese.

 

If you want more info, drop me a PM with your email and I'll see what I can find in the files.

 

Peter

 

 

Edited by Magpie22
correct error
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I thought I had seen some of this stuff before

I sent you an email with more pictures. Somewhere on the net I have seen a picture with dimensions. Edit - The 450lb Dc was 17.5 in diameter, the 250lb Dc was 11 in diameter.

 

Searching for 450lb depth charges you find odd things but I resisted sending you more details of this...........

Fort Lauderdale, land of the perfect body, has been rocked by reports of a 450-pound woman sitting at various oceanfront bus stops while naked!

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Dennis, what time frame are you using for the aircraft, with the depth charges the Mk VII 450Ib DC was all but replaced by early 1942 in Europe with the Mk VIII 250 Ib DC, the 450 Ib had a very restricted drop parameter, and was proven ineffective on Uboats , it was very much a stop gap measure till the 250 Ib was developed, the photo's I have seen of RAAF Cats in the pacific they were carrying 3 x 250 Ib DC's under each wing, Bombs , thru 42-43 mainly British style , after that either US or British , Bombs made in Australia were to a British pattern but had two threaded inserts on one side for the mount points to fit US bomb Racks and a single insert on the other side of the casting to fit British bomb racks, I have photo's of latter Black cats with 4 x US 500Ib's and early Cats with 8 x Brit 250 Ib bombs.

Torpedo's, both US and UK types trialled but not used operationally .  

Mines , the main weapon of the RAAF Cat latter in the war, If a mission with multiple Cats was going to mine a target eg 4-5 aircraft in the one night, half would carry US mines and half British mines, if a single Cat was doing the mining over many nights it usually carried one of each , the British and US mines had different methods of setting them off and required different sweeping techniques, hence the Japanese lost ships on what they thought was a cleared field which had mixed types. mines 1600-1800 Ib each Cats carried 1 x under each wing on the inboard hardpoint.     

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Hello @Magpie22@Ed Russell & @Sydhuey Thanks for the responses. Syd as for the time frame, the black cat i am modeling is from #20 squadron RAAF. early to mid ‘44. Overall Black with Black/grey camouflage upper wings. You, peter, and i have conversed before about the markings. 

     Ed thank you for the link I did find that thread about coastal command already. It was helpful to a degree but i was hoping to get more info on the 250 lb DC’s. I did get the Emails and they help a great deal thanks for that. Still not sure which route is best. Bombs, depth charges, or mines. 

      Next question ? Am i correct in thinking a Catalina could carry Bombs( i have both British and American style) one night and mines the next ? So i could do it either way and not be wrong ? If thats good then i can scratch the mine’s if i go that route. 

     Now that i have some more info. I am on a definite track to finishing something I started 15 years ago. I have stencils for fuselage codes. I have fuselage roundels & fin flashes from the spares that are the correct size. I just need to determine which ordnance. Then sort masks for the upper wing roundels & serial #’s (A24 codes). I thank all of you for your help. Hopefully by early/mid July I will have it ready for an RFI post. 

 

Dennis

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Next question. Am i correct in thinking a Catalina could carry bombs? 

Yes indeed they could carry bombs on the four underwing hard points. Locally made ones were British pattern but US bombs were used also. They would be 250 or 500lb depending on range required to reach target and local supply situation.

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To add to Ed's answer, later in the war, American made bombs had lugs for both US and British bomb shackles and tail fins. The British shackles used single lug while the Americans used two.

 

 

Chris

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