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Painting practice for foreign built aircraft for RAF


Courageous

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Hi All.

After recently reading an article about US aircraft being supplied to RAF SEAC, it stated how the aircraft were delivered with US equivalent paints applied and together with other painful thoughts revolving in my head, it begged a question. Now, their are a lot more clever people than I who have done all the work to produce accurate references for all sorts of things but not necessarily the internal colours of aircraft. For example, a N.A. Mustang is supplied to RAF in US equivalent colours. Time permitting, the UK then repaints with correct colours. What happens to areas like the cockpit and wheel wells? I personally can't see them stripping out a cockpit to paint it the 'right' colour, same for the wheel wells. Should we be painting our lend-lease cockpits/ wells with US colours...just asking. 

 

Stuart

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I'll leave the details to those modellers who have done extensive research on the subject of US equivalent or substitute colours, but regarding cockpits then yes lend-lease aircrafts retained the colour generally used by the manufacturer.

Same for wheel wells, with the caveat that wheel wells on certain types were treated like external surfaces.

 

Keep in mind that not all US aircrafts in UK service were acquired through lend-lease, before this scheme started the UK bought a large number of US aircrafts from the manufacturers and for these aircrafts the British purchasing commission  could request the colours they wanted. There are examples of US types with cockpits in locally produced grey green (I remember the Hudsons, there may be more)

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Giorgio- thanks. So, if we take the NA Mustang in the RAF as an example, should their cockpits/ wells be US interior green and not RAF interior green? I build mainly RAF fighters, that would include a number of US types and I wouldn't know where to to find out if it was lend-lease or purchase. And, would a 'purchased' aircraft have the 'proper' paint on?

 

Stuart

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Not a simple question, not least because it varied with time.   Before Lend Lease, purchased aircraft would be painted in the requested colours, as provided by US paint manufacturers.  Most of these were very close matches but they do seem to have had trouble with Sky.  Many US aircraft (including Bell and Curtiss) were painted with Dupont Sky Type S Grey, which is somewhat greyer than Sky.    Grumman seems to have used paint that was a very close match, Vought doesn't seem to have bothered too closely and just used US official colours judged as "near enough".  Some manufacturers making aircraft for the British continued to paint their aircraft in their version of the requested colours even after Lend Lease, at least for some time, despite the strict requirements of Lend Lease calling for aircraft entirely to US standards.  Manufacturers coming in late (FM, Goodyear) provided aircraft in US colour schemes.   Later there was an agreement on a subset of colours known as AN (Army Navy) colours which was meant to reduce the number of colours involved and hence reduce production costs and time.  Apart from dedicated US colours, this list included a restricted number of British colours, and some of the US colours were accepted as substitutes for the other British colours.

 

So there could be 

1. aircraft repainted in correct British colours after arrival in this country (or overseas) - ignoring any differences there might be hidden in such a statement;

2. aircraft painted before delivery in US-equivalent colours;

3. and late in the war there would be aircraft delivered in AN standard colours (US substitute colours). 

The latter two generally would be close enough but sometimes were repainted in the UK although not generally elsewhere.

 

But no-one would bother repainting the interiors.

 

As for distinguishing between ones we paid for and LL aircraft, I'm afraid you are in for a little bit more study of history.  There are a lot of sources available, and the aircraft serial is the key distinguishing feature.

Edited by Graham Boak
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27 minutes ago, Courageous said:

So, if we take the NA Mustang in the RAF as an example, should their cockpits/ wells be US interior green and not RAF interior green?

Even there, there's not a simple answer because, as Graham has already said, it varied over time.  You really need @Dana Bell to chime in on this because he has done a lot of research to demolish the simple equation of "US-built aircraft = US Interior Green interior".  Photographic evidence suggests that the interior of early Mustangs (eg I and probably II) were finished in Dull Dark Green, a US colour used (with others) much more extensively on the interiors of US aircraft than often understood.  I'd expect Mustangs IIIs and certainly IVs to have US Interior Green interiors.

 

Wheel bays are a different story again.  Subject to correction (because I haven't checked my references), by the Mustang III wheel bays were in Interior Green but even then the rear spar visible at the rear of the undercarriage bay is in Zinc Chromate Yellow.

 

NB the above cannot be simply carried across to other types eg Thunderbolts retained Dull Dark Green interiors much later (maybe to the end as far as deliveries to the RAF are concerned) and had Zinc Chromate Yellow wheel bay interiors.

 

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33 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

As for distinguishing between ones we paid for and LL aircraft, I'm afraid you are in for a little bit more study of history.  There are a lot of sources available, and the aircraft serial is the key distinguishing feature.

 

Among the sources available I would suggest this book:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Air-Arsenal-North-America-Lend-lease/dp/1857801636

 

It's a very big book with a lot of information. Not an easy read but a very useful reference for anyone interested in the subject. Today this book can be found online for prices around £15-17, IMHO great value for the size and the quality of the book

 

Back to the Mustang, as Seahawk said the matter is complicated as NA changed their painting process over time, best option is to start from the subject you're interested in (at least the variant) and then search the forum, as there are a number of threads covering the development of interior colours during P-51 production.

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Stuart,

 

Another thing people routinely fail to understand is just how difficult is to repaint the interior of an aircraft.

 

Notwithstanding the comments above about the variations in colours and how the aircraft may have been bought through the BPC or supplied via Lend-Lease think about the interior of a cockpit for instance, it's got numerous wiring looms, hydraulic lines and components, control runs, control units, instruments and electrical equipment all of which would need to be removed to repaint the interior surface, that's an awful lot of effort followed by disturbed systems functional checks to achieve what?  An interior colour scheme that complies with local regulations?  I'd suggest the effort far outweighs the importance of maintaining a standard colour scheme.

 

Therefore, I'd suggest the cockpit interior would remain as built.  An RAF Mustang III or IV or Thunderbolt are likely to be the same colour in the cockpit as their USAAF brethren.

 

Regarding undercarriage bays, as others have stated, these can be treated as exterior surfaces and could be repainted particularly if visible from the outside when the landing gear is in the stowed position but for those aircraft with fully enclosed undercarriage bays what's the point?  You risk paint inhibiting the operation of a system if carelessly applied.

 

Therefore, certainly for Lend_lease aircraft, they too are likely to have their undercarriage bays in the same colours as their US brethren.

 

Cockpits and their associated structure, undercarriage bays, their structure and equipment may be touched up in places but I'd reckon the groundcrew would use any paint that was available and was a close match to do that, I know I would in their position.

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Cheers guys. And their was me thinking it would be a simple answer. :frantic:All very interesting stuff, it looks like I need to do more research for each subject :hmmm:.

Cheers Wez. I agree with everything you have said relating to cockpits/ wells 'would' remain as built. I still have the task of finding out the colours of cockpits/ wells at the time of build knowing that they wouldn't change over it's wartime lifetime.

 

Stuart

Edited by Courageous
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2 hours ago, Courageous said:

All very interesting stuff, it looks like I need to do more research for each subject 

In most cases the answers are available,  often on here,  or for US types, or Hyperscale.

though there is still debate about the colour of Mustang wheel wells...

2 hours ago, Courageous said:

I agree with everything you have said relating to cockpits/ wells 'would' remain as built. I still have the task of finding out the colours of cockpits/ wells at the time of build knowing that they wouldn't change over it's wartime lifetime.

 

you have access to an amazing 'hive mind' here on these kind of questions,  so just ask, the more precise the question, the better usually, I want to build a specific aircraft, and if you are on an accuracy drive,  this will be something documented,  or, your research will end up dictating the subject conversely,  as specific aircraft will turn out to be well documented,  and others are very much vaguer,   and take it from there, ie something which has a good colour shot and maybe some other is better than something from one blurry image...

 

We are fortunate to have @Dana Bell  posting here,  who has been digging through US archives for decades,  and is still turning up new information, photos and variations.

 I know there are threads here (and Hyperscale Plane Talking) on Mustang internals,  British Ministry of Aircraft production (MAP) specified colours (and to what they were applied) to what were the Equivalent paints, which were all US A.N.A.  colors, and what types used those.

 

a good example is the Avenger,  is FA service the Avenger I is a Grumman built plane, regardless of US subtype, (TBF-1C, TBF-1F)  and were painted in US made MAP colours, while the Avenger II is an Eastern Built plane (TBM )and was finished in US A.N.A. colours,  inside and out.

brief aside, US designations contain much information,  TB = Torpedo Bomber, F= Grumman, M=Eastern.

 

So, a basic question is, was the type bought by the British, eg Mustang I,  or was it Lend-Lease,, which were more often in US equivalent colors,  though in the case of the Avenger, Grumman still had MAP specified paint,  until they switched to Gloss Sea Blue,  which is what the FAA got later.

for a bookmarkable thread on this

 

and specifically the actual specific details  you are making basic enquries about

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235021746-some-questions-on-faa-avengers/&do=findComment&comment=2731805

 

which should give an idea of what is and is not known on this!!  

 

Colors/Colours of RAF Mustangs is a complex area,  especially in the early models, and sometimes you just get a best guess.  

 

 

Here's a Mustang I of 26 Sq, 

8058779165_e85db40cfa_o.jpgMustang I, 26 Sqn.   1942. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

note the gear legs are aluminium lacquer ,  and from what little can be seen of the UC well, it is as well.  Note the aircarft letter under nose, so this is XV-U

 

4804646934_2a75417314_o.jpgMustang I by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

XV-E, note the full length yellow leading edge stripes,  and what is maybe  'mixed' Grey over the US MAP Dark Earth

Courtesy of @Etiennedup  flickr of WW2 RAF and Comonwealth colour images

https://www.flickr.com/search/?w=8270787%40N07&q=mustang

 

lots here, change the '=mustang'  in address bar for different types

https://www.flickr.com/search/?w=8270787%40N07&q=avenger

 

One last point,  a clear question in a thread title tends to get better results,  eg "RAF Mustang colour"    or even worse  "1/48th Mustang"   would be better served by "colours RAF Mustang I, 26 squadron 1942"  if you see the difference.   Note you can edit thread heading by selecting 'edit'  and then 'full edit'

 

Also,  try google,  but add britmodeller into the search term eg, 'RAF mustang i britmodeller'

you get a load of hist, and this is good one,  note the link in it from @ColFord  another noted researcher on RAF Mustangs

 

Stuart, this isn't all for you,  as it's a public forum I hope posts like this are of general use, and I hope it's not a lecture....   I just got a bit carried away :banghead: 

 

I have come to realisation that only places like here, are postings like the above of interest, apart from a few chaps at the model club...

 

cheers

T

 

 

 

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Cheers Troy. Get carried away as much as you like with no fear of being lectured.

My aircraft knowledge is patchy at best and I know that their a lots of knowledgeable people who are willing to help.

Like all queries, they can very quickly spiral outwards. The original question was more of a general question as to whether cockpits/ wells got repainted by others and I think that got answered enough to keep me happy. Using the Mustang as an example which happens to be the 'can with worms' I wasn't aware of, and shows how things can change very quickly for all sorts of reasons.

 

Stuart

 

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23 hours ago, Courageous said:

Hi All.

After recently reading an article about US aircraft being supplied to RAF SEAC, it stated how the aircraft were delivered with US equivalent paints applied and together with other painful thoughts revolving in my head, it begged a question. Now, their are a lot more clever people than I who have done all the work to produce accurate references for all sorts of things but not necessarily the internal colours of aircraft. For example, a N.A. Mustang is supplied to RAF in US equivalent colours. Time permitting, the UK then repaints with correct colours. What happens to areas like the cockpit and wheel wells? I personally can't see them stripping out a cockpit to paint it the 'right' colour, same for the wheel wells. Should we be painting our lend-lease cockpits/ wells with US colours...just asking. 

 

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

 

Interesting subject:lol:

 

Years ago when I first found the Net and modelling on line, I read many comment/articles by "Experts" who at the time looked like they knew what they

were on about.

Comments like US Aircraft Manufacturers were "Cavalier" or Curtiss, Painted cockpits in what ever were bandied about.....

As I have researched the whole British Purchase vs Lend Lease, I came to realise (and still do) that these comments were false/Hersey/or just plain wrong

 

Once having a "Discussion" with a Know it all SAGE (Self Appointed Guru Expert) from a certain Geographical area, I mentioned to him, Did it ever occur

to you people, that we the end users may have information/relics/artifacts squirreled away, that the general modelling world don't know about?

 

My Country's Air Force, the Royal New Zealand Air Force received many Lend Lease aircraft, either from British Orders ex the US or direct Lend Lease as the

RNZAF in the SW Pacific was attached to the US Navy.

 

These are my findings to date:

 

US Aircraft manufacturers did indeed paint aircraft for British/Commonwealth orders to British Specifications exterior and interior, using

US Manufactured paints.

 

Hudson Bombers ex RAF order, received by RNZAF in New Zealand early 1942, note the interior colour - not US Interior Green,

but rather what I term as US Manufactured RAF Interior Green

Hudson

 

0e03efd5-deb8-492e-b57b-fd502898c2ec.jpg

62a4c97a-d358-44fd-9c61-13f05741ebd4.jpg

(Photo use permission NR Mines)

 

Note this PV-1/RB34 again from British Lend Lease order, flown by USAAF before being handed over to RNZAF mid 1943 -

Note its not painted in US Interior Green, but again a US Manufactured RAF Interior Green

 

RNZAF PV1/RB34

 

RNZAF PV1/RB34

 

The RNZAF also received Curtiss P40E-1's diverted from RAF Lend Lease Orders, these arrived in RAF TLS (Temperate Land Scheme)

the lower colour incidentally being DuPont 71-021 Sky Type S-Grey, which is a "Pale Blue Colour with a green tinge" - nothing

grey about it in any respect.

 

This is a P40E-1 Swatch that I in have in my collection, the lower colour being DuPont 71-021 Sky Type S- Grey

RNZAF p40E-1 Swatch

Note also the rear of the swatch with the Chromate Green - US colours like this were permitted use.

 

Now the Interior colour, remember previously the "Cavalier/Paint it any old colour"?

 

Toward the end of  last year, I had the great privilege of viewing a modern day colour photo of an ex RNZAF P40E-1

(kept under cover, so protected) and the cockpit color which can be quite readily seen is very similar in colour to the first Hudson photo

I posted above. It's not US Interior Green or any thing similar.

The fuselage still wore the RAF TLS Camouflage like my swatches, and the really cool part is the lower wing was the same Pale Blue

colour as my swatch.

Further to that, there is a gent way down south, who had a couple (at least) ex RNZAF P40's, one being a P40E-1, I was also shown a photo

of the lower wing - guess what? Pale Blue like my Swatches.

 

The interesting this is that even with standardization of Lend Lease colours, some US Aircraft manufacturers still were obliging in painting

RAF/Commonwealth orders with RAF/Commonwealth markings at least.

When an order of Grumman TBF-1c's arrived in New Zealand late 1943 early 1944, they wore standard US 3 or 4 tone scheme, but had

RAF Type roundels (in Insignia colours). They could have just been sent with the standard US Star/bar.

 

From the RNZAF Museum, from the Curtiss P40 M/N, M & E Manuel 1943, I have a copy of the Cockpit painting instructions and Paint

mixing ratios for "Cockpit Green" - note no reference to "Curtiss Green".

The instructions state that if the painting was not done in accordance with an "Inspector" from one of the "Procuring Agencies", it had to be

stripped and redone to their satisfaction - doesn't sound so cavalier or "paint em any old how" ?

 

Take what you will from these comments, and hope it helps you?

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 12/4/2018 at 5:53 AM, Courageous said:

Giorgio- thanks. So, if we take the NA Mustang in the RAF as an example, should their cockpits/ wells be US interior green and not RAF interior green? I build mainly RAF fighters, that would include a number of US types and I wouldn't know where to to find out if it was lend-lease or purchase. And, would a 'purchased' aircraft have the 'proper' paint on?

 

Stuart

Hi, Stuart,

 

There are two or three noticeable stages, IMHO

 

First, aircraft "bought/ordered" BEFORE the US entered the war were painted in the schemes and colours ordered by the customer, the MAP. The actual paints were made in the US and were the best effort to approximate to the British colours. Including interiors. Be aware that the US did not "paint" its aircraft at the time (they were mostly NMF) including interiors. The USAAC used temporary paints to camouflage its aircraft for specific uses (see the famous P-36 row) and learned about "permanent camouflage" when they saw the Hudsons built for the RAF (or so it is said). These colours are colloquially referred as "equivalent" colours. Many factories that started delivering aircraft to the Brits at this stage carried over the "colours" into the next (i.e. Grumman); they have already a stock or steady supply of paint.

 

Second, when the US entered the war, aircraft were produced in both US and British camouflage schemes. There was a movement to standardize the colours (though not the schemes) used for both US and export aircraft, which ended in the famous Bulletin ANA 157 of 1943. In it all the colours used by all services in both countries were reviewed and overlapping colours were eliminated (it generated some resistance and the old colours were kept whenever possible) Factories starting production at this stage used this set of colours, even if they were producing aircraft previously designed and produced by another factory (thus, an Eastern built Wildcat has different colours than an almost contemporary Grumman one -though not necessarily different schemes- not for this cause, at least). These are referred as "substitute" colours (i.e., American colours substituted MAP colours). INteriors were invariable in the US colours.

 

Third, in 1944 the USAAF decided not to camouflage its aircraft anymore, reverting to NMF, with some exceptions, among those was "export aircraft". These were painted either in MAP schemes with "substitute" colours if carry overs from the earlier phase (Mustngs), or directly in the former USAAC scheme of OD/NG (i.e., P-40s and B-25s)

 

Adding to this, there were instances in which aircraft were totally or partially repainted in the UK, such as P-40s in Desert Scheme (only the Middlestone), P-39s and Mustangs (complete repaint). This may or not affect wheel wells and other "almost interior" parts.

 

FErnando

Edited by Fernando
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Hi guys, thanks for your input, looks like the lid is off the can. I thought it wouldn't be too long before others would come along and voice their viewpoints, and it's all becoming very complicated.

In my naivety, I thought things would be a little more straight forward but mot so. From a modelling perspective, for me at least, I think it will be 'best fit'.

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Hi Stuart and all!

 

Sorry to be so long joining the discussion - it's been a busy week!

 

I don't have any firm and simple answers to your original question, but I can give a few directions to look when you're deciding what colors to use.

 

There was a great deal of confusion about which interior colors to use at any given factory.  Wright Field correspondence noted - to their unhappiness - that there didn't seem to be any single set of rules being followed when painting aircraft interiors.  Additionally, the colors used by each factory changes several times during the war - this in response to changing policies or materiel availability.

 

Mustangs were built without primer on most interior surfaces, but the RAF objected to the lack of corrosion control.  It appears the factories may have primed more surfaces beginning in 1944, but I'd be very surprised if the Brits didn't add primer to their own Mustangs before then.

 

There's a lot of conflicting information, and not enough of it can be confirmed.  For example, the undated tech order above calls for OD rather than Dark Green on RAF camouflage, and that is doubtlessly true from some point in time.  But 1943 photos of factory fresh Mustangs often show a dramatic difference between the green on the American aircraft and on the adjacent British aircraft.  The anti-glare panel is ordered to be OD, but may Mustangs were delivered with Dull Dark Green antiglares; others appear to have been black.  The cockpit is called out in Interior Green, but that color wasn't created until mid-1943 - for example, an earlier Mustang Mk.I delivered to the UK couldn't have used Interior Green.  The old Ducimus publication on Mustang colors even quoted a tech order calling to Dull Dark Green Mustang cockpits.

 

When it comes to written documents, I've generally found tech orders and specifications to be the least reliable.  They usually follow what the AAF (or USN) thought should be the standard, but then each manufacturer could apply for an exemption, or simply ignore the written instructions.  During 1942 and early 1943, US manufacturers were given tremendous wiggle room when it came to paint.  The 1942 aluminum shortage spelled the end of Yellow Green for most companies - and each company was allowed to find its own solution (if you'll pardon the pun).  Curtiss, for example, tested three different interior colors before settling on a Berry Brothers formula, which the AAF then approved for use whenever Yellow Green was called for.  One Mustang tech order called for Interior Green lacquer, even though AAF specs were very clear that Interior Green wan NOT to be purchased as a lacquer - it was to be mixed from primer in the factory before use.  (So what did THAT color look like in use?)

 

The correspondence files seem to be the best place to find written evidence of how any aircraft interiors were painted - it's there that we learn the Northrop "forgot" to paint the cockpit of the first two XB-35s, that Douglas used its own Pine Green cockpit color, that Vought had permission to use its leftover stocks of aluminized primer ("candy apple green"), or that Curtiss had it's own cockpit green in 1942.

 

Wrecks provide some of the evidence we need when tracking colors, but each wreck only represents a particular aircraft at a given point in time.  Photos add similar evidence, but it's a real challenge to tell if a photo shows Yellow Green (aluminum and black tinted zinc chromate), one of the company-created greens (such as Curtiss Cockpit Green), or one of the peculiar cockpit greens created in the US to duplicate British Grey Green.  But for model building, any one of those options just might be close enough.

 

So, for Mustangs the evidence is still limited and conflicting.  While I hope one day to work the Mustang at the Archives for a few months, there are now 11 other project of my own that must be completed first.  I hope this gives you a few more options, if not perhaps too many options.  Either way, enjoy the build!

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

 

 

 

 

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Hi All!

   Now to add my two cents to the fray...

   I interviewed a painter from Eastern Aircraft, who painted Martlets (Wildcats)  at the Linden , NJ plant. He had color chips and several Kodacolor 25 images. The interior surfaces were done to US Navy specs. This was for ALL of the Eastern Aircraft production of FM-1 and FM-2 aircraft and their British equivalents. For the FAA, Eastern painted the Wildcat with US Olive Drab ANA613  and ANA603 US Sea Grey, and the underside US Navy Non-Specular Light Grey ANA 602; or in overall Glossy Sea Blue.

  Yes it is only one aircraft, but the colors are from the horse's mouth so to say.

  6-months after I interviewed the painter he died in a car crash.

 

Bruce

Edited by Bruce Archer
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Out of interest, how does the suggested paint list for both Airfix and KP's Mustang hold up against all these changes? Just wondering if I need to invest in some new paints before cracking out the airbrush! Afraid I get very lost when all these different shades get bandied about, probably due to my slight colour blindness, but I would like to get them reasonable accurate! :confused:

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On ‎2018‎-‎04‎-‎18 at 8:20 AM, Bruce Archer said:

Hi All!

   Now to add my two cents to the fray...

   I interviewed a painter from Eastern Aircraft, who painted Martlets (Wildcats)  at the Linden , NJ plant. He had color chips and several Kodacolor 25 images. The interior surfaces were done to US Navy specs. This was for ALL of the Eastern Aircraft production of FM-1 and FM-2 aircraft and their British equivalents. For the FAA, Eastern painted the Wildcat with US Olive Drab ANA613  and ANA603 US Sea Grey, and the underside US Navy Non-Specular Light Grey ANA 602; or in overall Glossy Sea Blue.

  Yes it is only one aircraft, but the colors are from the horse's mouth so to say.

  6-months after I interviewed the painter he died in a car crash.

 

Bruce

What reason did the painter give you for painting the bottom Light Grey ANA 602 and not the correct colour i.e. Sky?

John

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