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Bob C.

White Meteors

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Posted (edited)

I'm working on a Meteor F.3, to be depicted as one of the first four Meteors deployed to the Continent, arriving at Melsbroeck, Belgium on February 4, 1944, at which point they were painted overall white.  

Between Phil Listemann's Squadrons #15 Gloster Meteor F.1 & F.3 and the Dragon 1/72 instructions, I've worked out the following:

EE 239  Dennis Berry (Barry?)     YQ-Q

EE 240  F/L Mullender                 YQ-R

EE 241  F/O J. K. Rodgers            YQ-S

I had kind of wanted to do the CO's aircraft - W/C Andrew McDowall.  My problem is that, first, Listemann says that the OC's aircraft was EE 225, but that would make it

an F.1, and a couple sentences before that info, he says that "... it had been decided that the Meteor F.3 would be used on operations on the Continent ...".  My second problem, if the first can be solved, is that no reference I have gives McDowall's aircraft's individual letter.  Can anyone help on these two issues?

And yes, I know the white covered all the squadron/individual letters, but my plan is to depict a white thin enough to see through.

Just in case I need to line up an alternative -- if anyone can fill in the first names and/or ranks of the other three pilots listed above, and correct any spelling errors, that would also be appreciated. 

Thanks, 

Bob

Edited by Bob C.

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Posted (edited)

Quoting Chris Thomas from a previous thread:

Quote

 

616's ORB states that the Meteors had already been painted white before they were flown out to Belgium. I doubt very much that distemper was used as it's drag-inducing properties were known from the anti-Diver campaign and it would not have survived long in winter conditions.

The 4 Meteors flown out were P,Q,R and S, EE235, 239, 240 and 241 respectively. These were all early F.IIIs with Welland engines as per the F.I (long tailpipe etc). They saw no action and were there to familiarise Allied aircrew and gunners with the new aircraft prior to the arrival of the operational (Derwent) Meteors.

 

Not ALL the letters were covered- the individual letter was displayed on the forward gear door- but you knew that!

 

Edit: Note, there are a couple of photos of white ones that I don't remember seeing before here.

Edited by gingerbob

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13 hours ago, Bob C. said:

I'm working on a Meteor F.3, to be depicted as one of the first four Meteors deployed to the Continent, arriving at Melsbroeck, Belgium on February 4, 1944, at which point they were painted overall white.  

Between Phil Listemann's Squadrons #15 Gloster Meteor F.1 & F.3 and the Dragon 1/72 instructions, I've worked out the following:

EE 239  Dennis Berry (Barry?)     YQ-Q

EE 240  F/L Mullender                 YQ-R

EE 241  F/O J. K. Rodgers            YQ-S

I had kind of wanted to do the CO's aircraft - W/C Andrew McDowall.  My problem is that, first, Listemann says that the OC's aircraft was EE 225, but that would make it

Thanks, an F.1, and a couple sentences before that info, he says that "... it had been decided that the Meteor F.3 would be used on operations on the Continent ...".  My second problem, if the first can be solved, is that no reference I have gives McDowall's aircraft's individual letter.  Can anyone help on these two issues?

And yes, I know the white covered all the squadron/individual letters, but my plan is to depict a white thin enough to see through.

Just in case I need to line up an alternative -- if anyone can fill in the first names and/or ranks of the other three pilots listed above, and correct any spelling errors, that would also be appreciated. 

Thanks, 

Bob

The following has been extracted from "Meteor Age" by Mike Cooper, a former pilot on 616Sqdn :-

 

EE239 was flown by Sqd/Ldr Dennis Barry.

 

As related by Geoff Thomas, all the early Meteor III's of 616 had Welland engines and effectively Mk.I mainplanes.  None had airbrakes.

 

None of the white painted aircraft had airbrakes.

 

The date of posting to Melsbroek is given as February 5th

 

Once at Melsbroek, Meteor III's with air brakes started to be delivered.  First one with, believed to have been EE270 dd 28/2/45 (damaged 6/45) 

 

HTH

 

Dennis

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Bob, 

Looks like you (and Chris Thomas) provided all the missing info.  I did indeed oversimplify about the white covering "all" the code letters; speaking for anyone coming brand new to the white Meteors, your clarification of nose gear door letter is greatly appreciated.  The good news for me is that the Dragon (Cyber Hobby) decal sheet has a sky and a black P and actually depicts YQ-P as EE 235/G at Manston.  The bad news is that I'll have to cobble together 235 (in a straight line) out of individual numbers.  Any idea if the /G would have been overpainted white, or only the EE?  Looks like the "EE 225" in Listemann is a typo that wasn't caught.   

To add to my original question/info, per C. Shores and C. Thomas 2nd Tactical Air Force Vol. 3, p. 540 (forgot I had this), it is Flt. Lt. M. M. Mullenders.  And thanks for the 2 additional photos.  The ground shot is also in the Ducimus booklet, but the flying shot of "R" is new to me also.  In fact, for anyone who might be interested, here is a list of photos of white Meteors based on references I have.  Note that the page letter in parentheses indicates same photo in 2 references. 

FAOW #96, p. 63 (A)

Shores/Thomas, 2nd Tactical Air Force Vol. 3, p. 540 (A)

Squadron Signal In Action #152, p. 8 (B)

P. LIstemann, Squadrons #15, The Gloster Meteor F. 1 & F. 3, p. 12 (B), 13

Ducimus #11  Camouflage & Markings  Meteor, Whirlwind, Welkin, p. 249

P. Butler and T. Buttler, Aerofax Gloster Meteor, p. 49

 

Dennis,

Drats!  No air brakes!  Given my concept of semi-see-through white paint, I had already done the whole thing in Ocean Grey/Dark Green/Medium Sea Grey/Yellow.  Now I'll have to putty in the air brakes, and spray all 3 main colors again.  But thanks much -- I'm glad I didn't find this out after the whole thing was done!  Nothing is ever easy, right!  

BTW, thanks for the arrival date clarification also.  But  I didn't catch my mistake of February 4, 1944.  Should be 1945, of course.  Otherwise, that's a REAL advance party!  

Thanks all,

Bob      

 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Bob C. said:

Given my concept of semi-see-through white paint

It's your model, so by all means do that if it makes you happy, but I've never seen any evidence of it, or reason to think the white was see-through. Increasingly grimy and dirty, yes, as time went by, and with bits flaking coming off as time went by. But not being translucent at the point of application.

Edited by Work In Progress

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Posted (edited)

In this thread

there are photos of white Meteors  (one in first post, need to scroll a bit two find two next)

I do not see differnce in engines with typical Mk III but maybe I am not right...

Cheers

J-W

p.S.

Here is early - Mk-I

1024px-Aircraft_of_the_Royal_Air_Force%2C_1939-1945-_Gloster_Meteor._CL2926.jpg

and here Mk III (painted white)

Meteor-F3-4.jpg

Between those two above I see difference, both in front and end of engines...

Regards

J-W

Edited by JWM
added PS

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WIP and JWM,

Sorry for not getting back to you earlier.  I was having problems responding to some threads, including this one.  Problem solved by getting wife to install Google Chrome (thanks Mike!).  

 

I think I overstated my idea of "see-through" white paint.  I should have conveyed the idea of paint wearing off gradually, and as you have stated, WIP, flaking off gradually.  See the 2 photos posted in Gingerbob's first comment, at his link "here", and JWM's post above, for examples of white paint starting to wear thin.  But yes, all other photos I've seen show a very even, solid coat of white.  In Shore's/Thomas' 2nd Tactical Air Force, Vol. 3, p. 541, there is a color profile in which the artist shows exactly the concept I am going for - you can barely make out the code letters.  My reasoning is that, especially, upper surface colors would be dark enough to, at least, give an impression of showing through the white.  I am only wondering if my limited airbrushing capabilities are going to be sufficient to effect my concept.

 

OK, I just re-read this post.  I am thinking the first whole line might be a head-scratcher, so some clarification.  Mike is not my wife.  Mike is Mike Williams, admin, who suggested the Chrome solution.  Wife is Iris, my invaluable in-home IT department.  Whew!  I hope that prevents a whole lot of extraneous questions and comments!    

 

Thanks all for comments, info and definitely for photos.

 

Bob 

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Just wondering if the Cyber Hobby kit representative of an early or late Meteor III?

 

Pat

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26 minutes ago, Pat C said:

Just wondering if the Cyber Hobby kit representative of an early or late Meteor III?

 

Pat

It allows you to do both but doesn't explain that fact.  See post 25 in this thread:

 

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/69118-mpm-72567-gloster-meteor-fmki/&

 

For the "short tailpipes" you just leave off the longer tailpipes provided in the kit, leaving a tailpipe ending pretty much flush with the end of the nacelle.

 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

It allows you to do both but doesn't explain that fact.  See post 25 in this thread:

 

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/69118-mpm-72567-gloster-meteor-fmki/&

 

For the "short tailpipes" you just leave off the longer tailpipes provided in the kit, leaving a tailpipe ending pretty much flush with the end of the nacelle.

 

 

 

Many thanks Seahawk - I did wonder if the decal options were for a mix of early and late machines despite showing them all with long tailpipes!

 

pat

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Pat, 

Just an FYI.  In case you are not aware, Barracudacals makes a decal correction set (72007) that corrects the colors of the ntl insig -- replaces the garish bright red with a darker red.  

 

Bob

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Came across this thread in a Google search an opportune time. I wanted to build a white Meteor, however the only one in my stash is the Tamiya Mk 1, but the later boxing paired with the V1 so does not have the airbrakes moulded into the wings. Does that mean I can convert it easily into one of the early Mark IIIs described above? There are two canopies in the kit so one may be the later version or if not I can perhaps find a vac form for the rear section?

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Thanks Troy- now does anyone have his set and is prepared to sell/swap a canopy for the Meteor Mk III?  For swaps I have 3 sets of Falcons canopies, mainly WW II fighters and US Navy ( or anything else).

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unfortunately that's 1/72, the Tamiya Meteor is 1/48th.

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Yep, the Falcon set is good in 1/48 though, and if you only want the Meteor canopy off it then I'm sure the rest will sell on easily in the Sales and Wants section - there's a lot of useful stuff there for most RAF 1/48 modellers.

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Squadron repackaged a lot of the Falcon vac canopies individually. I know they have had the Meteor in 1/72, but since I don't do 1/48, have never checked what might be available. Perhaps worth a look?

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On ‎21‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 10:13, Seahawk said:

It allows you to do both but doesn't explain that fact.  See post 25 in this thread:

 

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/69118-mpm-72567-gloster-meteor-fmki/&

 

For the "short tailpipes" you just leave off the longer tailpipes provided in the kit, leaving a tailpipe ending pretty much flush with the end of the nacelle.

 

 

 

Hello chaps,

 

I'll make a more comprehensive post later-on but there is another detail that identifies a Meteor with a Derwent 1 engine, rather than the length of the tailpipes.  There is a vent, seen only on Mk.IIIs on the nacelle at the 10 o'clock position, vewed head-on.  You can see it here and before anybody says it, the nearest aircraft is NOT a Mk.IV!

 

29575313148_870dfbc162_o.jpg

 

I went on a bit over this subject a few weeks ago here:

 

 

Kind regards,

 

Neil

 

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4 hours ago, neilfergylee said:

I'll make a more comprehensive post later-on but there is another detail that identifies a Meteor with a Derwent 1 engine, rather than the length of the tailpipes.  There is a vent, seen only on Mk.IIIs on the nacelle at the 10 o'clock position, vewed head-on.  

Precisely the point made in my post 25 of the thread you quoted!  This is all getting a little circular.

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5 hours ago, Seahawk said:

Precisely the point made in my post 25 of the thread you quoted!  This is all getting a little circular.

I think the problem is that when referencing a point in an embedded thread, the point is difficult to spot.

 

Anyway, good to know my point can be verified. :)

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On 11/04/2018 at 13:23, sloegin57 said:

 

As related by Geoff Thomas, all the early Meteor III's of 616 had Welland engines and effectively Mk.I mainplanes.  None had airbrakes.

 

None of the white painted aircraft had airbrakes.

...

Once at Melsbroek, Meteor III's with air brakes started to be delivered.  First one with, believed to have been EE270 dd 28/2/45 (damaged 6/45) 

 

 

On 11/04/2018 at 23:07, Bob C. said:

 

Drats!  No air brakes! 

 

This explains something.

 

A few weeks ago, I purchased off eBay an original Air Ministry negative of that I believe is a Mk.III banking away from the photographer.  My money on it being a Mk.III is the absence of prominent tailpipes, signifying (but not guaranteeing) Derwent I engines.

 

43311008104_e18503f5ae_b.jpg

 

The problem I had was this:

 

29101217137_2f641b90ed_b.jpg

 

Although airbrakes are not as prominent as the old Airfix Mk.III model would imply (scaled-up they would be like cast iron grates), there appear not to be any airbrakes fitted to this aircraft.

 

Note also the shape of the undercarriage bulges in comparison to this shot which I believe to be of a Mk.I or even F9/40.  This shot came from the wonderful William Green series on aircraft of WWII:

 

42220652850_e5943af147_o.jpg

 

Note how the bulges extend further back, as far as the flaps.

 

Therefore, I think is it safe to say that like in so many other cases, you need to check the prototype before proceeding to model it!

 

Finally, a bonus shot of little relevance but, again, bought of eBay and featuring one of the white four:

 

43311009744_cd8ab40278_b.jpg

 

Cheers,

 

Neil

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