IAC Fouga Magisters

[Fifer54]

Hi, Guys!

Here I am with another query, this time concerning Irish Air Corps Fouga Magisters. I cannot find the information I need. Even though DuckDuckGo is my friend, it is unable to find out what I need.

I have looked on airliners.net, and studied walkrounds (you can't find a IAC Magister walkround anywhere!) but I can't find the data I want, but I know some of the regulars here are Irish-based and might

know this.

I am building Heller's 1/72 Fouga Magister, in a limited boxing with IAC decals. Now, this kit includes 2 sizes of wingtip tanks, a large pair with nav lights built into the front end, or a smaller set apparently without lights.

The instructions cover a kite from the Austrian Luftstreitkraefte with the big tanks, the little tanks aren't mentioned in the instructions at all, but the separate IAC colour scheme diagram appears to show the smaller tanks fitted.

The few pictures I've found on the 'net are inconclusive.

SO . . . which wingtip tanks for Irish Magisters, big or small?

Any guidance gratefully received! 

[Giorgio N]

IIRC they had the larger tanks. I will try and find some proper information but for the moment the larger Heller tanks looks to me more correct for the Irish machines based on the shape. Both types of tanks have lights, keep in mind that the clear area is only on the outside of the tank (IIRC Heller get this right)

Interestingly 4 of the Irish Fougas were former Austrian machines, while the others were originally to be sold to Katanga but were embargoed before delivery.

These aircrafts were a bit different from other Magisters and their avionics fit was unique.

Small interesting fact: if in doubt about the tanks, you could simply leave them off... Irish Fougas sometimes flew without the tanks, it was not a common thing at all but happened and there are pictures of these aircrafts without tanks

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Hello @MadNurseGaz ... I found this via google maybe it will help you. He apparently wrote a book on your subject.

 

Dennis

Edited April 10, 2018 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[Fifer54]

5 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Hello @MadNurseGaz ... I found this via google maybe it will help you. He apparently wrote a book on your subject.

 

Dennis

Thanks very much for your input, Giorgio and Dennis!

I followed the link to that Max Decals page about the book, and the sample pages displayed there with the enlarged pictures, seem to me to show the smaller tanks in use on the Irish aircraft. I base this assessment on the length of tank showing

behind the trailing edge of the wing. The big tanks have a much larger "overhang" at the back. Small tanks it is!

[Max Headroom]

Here is 216 when I saw her at Casement in 1983

 

 

Trevor 

 

[Giorgio N]

Ok, after watching the football (not a Roma supporter but they played a fantastic game!) I found some time to check things better, browsed a couple of books on the IAC and checked some French sources and I have to correct my previous statement... or maybe not.

The Magister used two types of tanks, a small one with a capacity of 125 Litre and a large one with a capacity of 230 L. The small tanks were made of metal while the larger ones were in fibreglass. The tanks also differed in some details, in any case both had navigation lights on the outer section (Heller correctly represented this detail in clear plastic on the large tanks but didn't on the small tanks). The easiest way to tell one type from the other is by checking the presence of a clear strip showing the level in the tank, a feature only present on the larger type. Problem is that it's not easy to see this detail as it's only visible if the picture is taken slightly from above

Most pictures of IAC Fougas I have show the small tanks, however one picture that shows unpainted fibreglass tanks, meaning the larger type, on 215.

 

[Fifer54]

Thanks again to Giorgio and Trevor, who have managed to set the cat among the pigeons with this new information.

You see, the 2 IAC Magisters for which decals are provided in the boxing I have are 216, of which Trevor has displayed a photo appearing to show large tanks, and 215, Giorgio's large-tank-carrying aircraft!

Perhaps big tanks (I like big tanks!) are the way to go. It would make providing wingtip nav lights easier . . .

[roym]

Hi lads,

 

Small tanks were the most common, Large tanks were used but rarely and maybe even only once or twice. Apparently only 219 ever flew without any tanks, but I may be wrong. There are details in the book by Joe Maxwell and Radu Brinzan "Fouga Magister- an Irish Perspective". I'll check when I get home.

 

Regardless, stick on the small tanks to be fine.

 

Roy

[Giorgio N]

I should add that while 215 had the large tanks in one picture, other pictures of the same aircraft show her with the smaller tanks, so the large tanks were really likely to have only been used occasionally

[Dermo245]

10 hours ago, MadNurseGaz said:

Thanks again to Giorgio and Trevor, who have managed to set the cat among the pigeons with this new information.

You see, the 2 IAC Magisters for which decals are provided in the boxing I have are 216, of which Trevor has displayed a photo appearing to show large tanks, and 215, Giorgio's large-tank-carrying aircraft!

Perhaps big tanks (I like big tanks!) are the way to go. It would make providing wingtip nav lights easier . . .

@murfv is also a good source of info on the kits as he's built more than a few of them and is based here in Ireland - recommend you shoot him a PM.

 

This is my only picture of a Magister from the Baldonnel museum....but the tank isn't very clear. I'll ask some of the lads on our forum if anyone has close-ups.

 

Fouga CM-170 Super Magister by Dermot Moriarty, on Flickr

 

Cheers,

Dermot

 

 

Edited April 11, 2018 by Dermo245
forgot photos

[noelh]

I'd have to dig it out but I have a photo of a Magister which I took at an airshow. It had the larger tanks and they were unpainted fibreglass. I was told later they were mostly fitted as ferry tanks when needed to go back to France for overhaul. If that's true then you could fit them to any of the Fougas.

[noelh]

Ok here's the photo. Unfortunately it was on a Kodachrome slide but with a bit of bodging with a bedside lamp and my camera phone. Here it is. Also another phot0, not mine culled from the internet. I guess he was standing near me. Actually looking through his photostream. We seem to have been in the same place at the same on many occasions. He also has photos of most of the aircraft I've flown, including my first solo. 

 

I would have posted earlier only I got caught up looking at my old pictures. A bit of a nostalgia trip. Hard to believe all those photos I took are now historic. Maybe I should get them all online. I also came across a photo book published in 2003 which is a feast of photos of the Air Corps over the years. There's a picture of 219 without tip tanks. The caption states it was like that for two days in 1998 and the commented that the endurance was severely restricted. Also in the book is another picture of 220 on the way to the range complete with two machine guns sprouting from the nose and two rocket pods under the wings. That would make a nice subject.

 

 

 

 

Martin Dignam

Edited April 11, 2018 by noelh

[murfv]

1 hour ago, Dermo245 said:

@murfv is also a good source of info on the kits as he's built more than a few of them and is based here in Ireland - recommend you shoot him a PM.

 

This is my only picture of a Magister from the Baldonnel museum....but the tank isn't very clear. I'll ask some of the lads on our forum if anyone has close-ups.

 

Fouga CM-170 Super Magister by Dermot Moriarty, on Flickr

 

Cheers,

Dermot

 

 

I have some photos of '220' taken last year where she is used as an instructional airframe in the local tech, I will see what I can find re the tip tank as currently fitted and post for reference. 

 

 

[Fifer54]

Thanks to all who have contributed, your input is greatly appreciated. It's especially good to hear from Irish-based members with photos of the actual aircraft I'm likely to model!

Those pix of '215' with the unpainted fibreglass tanks are wonderful reference material, and may well form the basis of my model.

 

Now, how to replicate unpainted fibreglass in 1/72? Looking at the lower pic of '215', maybe a coat of Humbrol 118 US Tan, followed by a heavy dry-brush of H29 Dark Earth, followed by a light dry-brush of H31 Slate Grey? All topped off with a satin varnish . . .

 

[noelh]

Actually if anything it does nicely illustrate the risks of interpreting colours from photos. Even though both photos were taken at the same time and place. There is a clear difference in tone. Actually if anything the colour is somewhat between to the two. My image I feel is a bit dark because of the dodgy nature of the reproduction. On the original slide which remember is original Kodachrome which was pretty much state of that art at time. The image is crystal clear and is lighter but not as light as in the second photo which perhaps is a little overexposed. 

But your mix I think should hit the right note and come out nicely.

 

Now I need to get one of those slide to digital thingies and convert all my Kodachromes.

Edited April 11, 2018 by noelh

[alhenderson]

Don't know if this helps, but the only picture I have of an IAC Magister is from IAT 97:

 

 

Al.

[Fifer54]

Thanks, Alistair, that's a great pic of '215', this time she's wearing painted large tanks! (I think!) The dayglo on the outer side would be the same for large or small tanks- I think the giveaway is the nav lights in the outer part of the nose of the tank (the small

tanks have the nav light lens over the entire tip of the nose. (now someone will post a pic of obviously small tanks with a nav light like the big 'uns!!)

[Prenton]

I have a couple of photos for you of 219, as she has now been restored, in the Irish Air Corps Museum.  They were taken at the launch of Joe Maxwell and Radu Brinzan's book referred to earlier.

 

Here is the link:-

 

http://forum.ipmsireland.com/topic/8228136/1/?x=30#new

 

Hope these are of assistance to you.

 

Philip

[roym]

45 minutes ago, MadNurseGaz said:

Thanks, Alistair, that's a great pic of '215', this time she's wearing painted large tanks! (I think!) The dayglo on the outer side would be the same for large or small tanks- I think the giveaway is the nav lights in the outer part of the nose of the tank (the small

tanks have the nav light lens over the entire tip of the nose. (now someone will post a pic of obviously small tanks with a nav light like the big 'uns!!)

Gaz,

 

They look like the small tanks to me! The nav light only covered the outer half of the tank nose both large and small.

Edited April 11, 2018 by roym

[Fifer54]

Well, this is confusing! The more we find out, the less we know!

It looks as though the safest option is to build '215' with unpainted big tanks . . .

 

Maybe I'll have to build another one . . .

[noelh]

Here's a French site where the modeller  built a French version with the larger and unpainted tanks. I'm not sure about that colour though.

 

https://maquettes-missiles.blogspot.ie/2010/12/le-fouga-cm-170-magister.html?m=

 

I have a suspicion that given the construction of the tanks and the extra weight of the fuel. There might be limitations on the manoeuvres allowed with them fitted. So they wouldn't be used in airshows??

 

Edited April 11, 2018 by noelh

[Fifer54]

1 hour ago, noelh said:

Here's a French site where the modeller  built a French version with the larger and unpainted tanks. I'm not sure about that colour though.

 

https://maquettes-missiles.blogspot.ie/2010/12/le-fouga-cm-170-magister.html?m=

 

I have a suspicion that given the construction of the tanks and the extra weight of the fuel. There might be limitations on the manoeuvres allowed with them fitted. So they wouldn't be used in airshows??

 

That sounds plausible to me. So displaying birds would have the small tanks, then. I see what you mean about the colour of those tanks; yes, they look like unpainted fibreglass, but unpainted fibreglass where the gelcoat is grey!

I'll experiment with tans/browns/greygreens in drybrush/wash techniques until i'm content with it! . . .

[Irish 251]

The Maxwell/Brinzan book states that for longer flights the larger ferry tanks with a capacity of 230 litres could be fitted.  These were made of a composite material whereas the smaller tanks (125 litres) were metal.  The unpainted tanks were the composite ones and the absence of paint was to make it easier to inspect them for cracks, as the French had encountered problems in this regard.  The inference in the book is that the small tanks were what was normally fitted.

[murfv]

For anyone that may be interested please see my album of pictures of ex-IAC Fouga Magister '220'

Apologies for poor quality of pictures but they may of help so someone.

Pics were taken with my phone, will have to get back again and bring the 'real' camera with me.

[Giorgio N]

9 hours ago, murfv said:

For anyone that may be interested please see my album of pictures of ex-IAC Fouga Magister '220'

Apologies for poor quality of pictures but they may of help so someone.

Pics were taken with my phone, will have to get back again and bring the 'real' camera with me.

 

That's a great set of pictures, thanks for sharing !

 

The detail pics of the tanks show these to be the smaller metal type.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Giorgio N