perdu Posted May 19, 2018 Share Posted May 19, 2018 Great forensic photography Crisp Oh don't you just love the Whirlwind in flight, I saw her at Yeovilton last year Fell for her all over again Back to Yeo this July, yippee ☺ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-FAAWAFU Posted May 19, 2018 Author Share Posted May 19, 2018 6 hours ago, junglierating said: You need to tell me about rivets.....my mk4 is on ice its a great kit but the skin is very wrong....in my opinion.It wont be half as good as your superlative job but then you are uber dedicated🤩 So what do you need to know...? Mine are HGW rivets, as discussed at length in Part 1 of the build. Incidentally, if you think this build has been über-anal / über-dedicated (delete depending on point of view), you wait until my next attempt at a Seaking, which will be an 819 NAS SAR cab with full (-ish) interior... as well as another go at the rivets [Not likely to start for a long time!] 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyf117 Posted May 19, 2018 Share Posted May 19, 2018 (edited) Content withdrawn - I will NOT be threatened by a moderator, simply because I queried the actions of another... Edited June 27, 2020 by andyf117 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huvut76g7gbbui7 Posted May 19, 2018 Share Posted May 19, 2018 2 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said: But a little 60s helo porn for you Excellent stuff! Whirlwind is nice but the Wasp is a real beauty. Your Sea King build continues to educate as I didn't know that with Carson blades the TR was not the old 5 blade one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry1954 Posted May 19, 2018 Share Posted May 19, 2018 I'm just loving every bit of this thread! Terry 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdu Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 16 hours ago, Terry1954 said: I'm just loving every bit of this thread! Terry Who could fail to? A great modeller with intimate love and knowledge of his subject, especially this subject, how could we lose I love the 'forensic' exposés of the really easily glossed over and far too easy areas to ignore in any thread by guys like Crisp here and Hendie who are tearing their helicopters apart and reassembling them so we see them working Amazing Of course this approach brings us who allow ourselves full immersion absolutely no excuse to get it wrong... 4 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-FAAWAFU Posted May 21, 2018 Author Share Posted May 21, 2018 On 5/19/2018 at 7:15 PM, andyf117 said: Below is XV714 in 1992, as an AEW.2, wearing the overall Dark Sea Grey scheme - as can clearly be seen, the uppersurface colour of the blades matches the airframe: I really didn't want to get into a prolonged discussion about this - but I am extremely dubious about this photo! [For reasons that i'll try to explain]. If nothing else, this discussion readily illustrates a fact that all modellers already know; colour is a problem! It's a problem even with modern photography - differences of light, processing, white balance, post-production "enhancement" etc (and that's before you go anywhere near personal perception). But the era I am modelling is 30 years ago, when digital photography for private individuals was unheard of (the first digital camera I ever saw was in the early 90s when a RN Phot man used it in intelligence gathering from the back of an 819 Seaking of mine. The camera alone cost many thousands). So you now have to factor in the fact that the colour shots from 1988 that we find on the interwebs have arrived via scans of film (or more likely of prints), thus building all sorts of additional variables. So I am trying to go back to first principles, to remove as many of those variables as possible - and this is where we get to why I am dubious about the photo above. THE Bible for FAA rotary wing is "Fleet Air Arm Helicopters Since 1943" by Lee Howard, Mick Burrow and Eric Myall. Expensive, but superb - and incredibly well researched; if there is a disagreement between the book and, say, a Revell painting guide, the book wins every time for me. This might seem like a digression in a thread about Seakings, but I am going to use one of my own photos of a pair of Lynxes to illustrate the point. The Lynx started off Oxford Blue all over, as we know. Over to the Bible (p344, Camouflage Schemes & Markings): "In late 1982 the Lynx HAS2s began to enter a programme of re-finishing in overall Dark Sea Grey (DSG) BS381C-638), with black codes and red/blue tactical roundels. ... Then, in 1988, the DSG scheme... began to give way to an overall Medium Sea Grey (MSG) (BS381C-637) finish with white codes and titles)". The re-finishing programme took a while. On Broadsword Flight (I was Flight Commander 1989 - 1991) I had a DSG cab with black markings; in 1990 we were augmented to a two-aircraft flight for a few months, while operating off West Africa. We borrowed Gibraltar Flight's cab (and crew), which was MSG with white markings. Here they both are on deck, and the difference is plain to see: The ANTI-SUBMARINE Seaking fleet missed out the DSG stage. "In 1984 the RAF Blue Grey scheme for ASW Seakings began to change to the much lighter MSG with white codes". Clearly the cab in your photo is a Bagger: they DID have a DSG phase: "Despite their ASW counterparts changing to MSG in 1984, the AEW aircraft only began to receive this scheme in 1986, with some still in DSG as late as 1993." This explains this photo, of 3 AEW2s & an HAS6 on board Ark - with the Baggers clearly in 2 different schemes: The pic you posted, however, is nothing like either scheme - it's much too blue and much too dark. I suspect it's been played around with in Photoshop or whatever to "make it look better". Anyway, back to the blades. Look again at the Baggers above. The roots of the blades - where they are stained with exhaust gunk etc, are reasonably DSG-ish (though I reckon considerably paler). But the rest of the blade - i.e. the bit without the staining - isn't anything like as dark as that. And a similar shot (taken in Malta in 1990 after I had left the ship)... do those blades look dark to you? Cos they don't to me. This being 1990, the SHAR is still DSG; I don't think the blades match it. OK, so let's fast forward to a professionally-taken digital photo from 2016. This was taken during the farewell buzz around Scotland by 2 Gannet SAR cabs to mark the end of military SAR. Ignore the yellow blade, but look at 1. the obvious exhaust staining at the root (especially at 2 and 4 o'clock as we look, which suggests these are Nos 3 & 4 blades, which sit in the exhaust gas when folded) and 2. the similarity between the blades and the (undeniably) MSG parts of the aircraft: It is possible that the colour of blade finish was changed at some stage, but I haven't been able to find any evidence of that, and no-one I know recalls it - and I don't see why MoD would bother. Alas, none of the RAF BG shots I have from 1988 really show the blade colour at all. Of course - that would be too easy! I am 100% certain from examining those blades on Saturday that the main colour is the same on both sides. I suspect you disagree, Andy, which is entirely your right. However, what is certain is that the blades got pretty stained and weathered (see above, for instance), so this discussion is pretty academic. Ho hum. More soon Crisp 10 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBaron Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said: the first digital camera I ever saw was in the early 90s when a RN Phot man used it in intelligence gathering from the back of an 819 Seaking of mine. The camera alone cost many thousands) My inner nerd yearns to know what resolution it was capable of shooting at! Given available sensor sizes of that era - even for military kit - I'd be curious to know if it gave improved resolution over photochemical film or was being shot digitally for other reasons such as multi-spectral imaging. I'd ask you what that Photo man was taking intelligence photos of Crisp but don't want you to have to kill me so will refrain from pressing the issue... 1 hour ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said: I suspect it's been played around with in Photoshop or whatever to "make it look better". As someone who learned to shoot still and moving images long ago in the the film-based era and now works solely in digital, I'm suspect of the majority of colour photographic references* on the web and in print for the following reasons: Film All photographic emulsions from different manufacturers had colour biases toward different parts of the spectrum eg. Kodak, Fuji, as well as the differing spectral sensitivities between colour negative and slide. Also these values changed over the decades as emulsions improved. You could shoot the same - in this case Sea King - with the same camera using identical ASA rated film, shutter speed, lens and aperture, and get a different colour result each time you switched manufacturer or between negative and positive film. That's before you even let Thomas, Richard and Harold loose on it in the darkroom.. Digital Scanning colour negative and positive film has the capacity to impose a further layer of variations from the original subject due to variables such as colour resolution and gamma. Changing the scanned image from RGB to CMYK for print reproduction also alters colouration, due to the change from a three- to four-colour model. Shooting with a professional digital camera is also problematic for two main reasons. Not only does the camera need to be accurately white-balanced but - if shot in RAW format to achieve maximum tonal and chromatic detail from the camera sensor, subjective effects can still be introduced by the photographer in post-processing for reproduction. If shot in a compressed format like JPEG not only is resolution immediately compromised but the camera manufacturer's own processing algorithms will kick in and introduce colour and tone changes without you realizing how it is skewing the original colour values (an obvious example being the 'beauty' or 'portrait' setting that automatically favours skin tones at the expense of other areas of the frame) *There are only two ways to be sure. The first is that you know the exact BS, RLM, FS colours of the aircraft in question at the historical point the photograph was taken - as you mention here Crisp in relation to: 1 hour ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said: "Fleet Air Arm Helicopters Since 1943" for example. The second way of being sure is that one of the frames of the original sequence of photographs includes a standard photographic reference chart such as this example Without such information we can only go on probability, or in the case here, a builder with expert experience of the subject. I'll shut up now Crisp as I've taken up more of your thread than is conscionable. Apologies. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry1954 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 The fascinating world of colour conundrums! I'll need a definitive view for when I get round to my (new) Airfix 1/72 HAR 3, and my Hasegawa 1/48 .......................🤔 Such great stuff on this thread guys! Terry 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdu Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 Terry I firmly believe that you need to paint it the colour you see, wherever you see it, if you like the image Like the real thing, as soon as you place the model in a differently light balanced area the colours will change again anyway Where did I put that Phantom? And the HC4... 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJP Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 (edited) I'm with Perdu - so many reasons for variation as in the above learned discussion the photo on the left is from an out of print book Wings across the Sea - the other taken by me of the same Sea Fury at Bankstown 1970 where the dark blue had weathered into grey - apologies they are not photos of Sea Kings Ex-FAAWAFU. CJP Edited May 22, 2018 by CJP 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-FAAWAFU Posted May 22, 2018 Author Share Posted May 22, 2018 (edited) I am with Bill, too; paint what you see. My final word on the colour conundrum is this... the hulls of these two ships (HMS Queen Elizabeth & RFA Tidespring, a few weeks ago) are painted the same colour, but only on a tiny bit of the lower bow would you believe so with the naked eye: P.S. No modelling today because interview in London; cross your fingers, boys & girls! Edited May 22, 2018 by Ex-FAAWAFU 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdu Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Fingers are firmly crossed Bon chance mon ami Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry1954 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 11 minutes ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said: I am with Bill, too; paint what you see. Sound advice from you both and I do agree. Good luck with interview! Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBaron Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Best of luck Crisp! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giemme Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Fingers crossed! 👍🏻 Ciao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corsaircorp Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 On 5/19/2018 at 6:16 PM, perdu said: Great forensic photography Crisp Oh don't you just love the Whirlwind in flight, I saw her at Yeovilton last year Fell for her all over again Back to Yeo this July, yippee ☺ Waaaahaaaaa It's an heatbreaking for me, I cannot be there...😩😩 If I plan to go, SWMBO will send me a GREEEAAAAT bill, hard to swalow !! Sincerely. CC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corsaircorp Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Finger crossed too Crisp ! Very instructive Thread as usual ! Good luck my friend ! sincerely. CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corsaircorp Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 10 hours ago, CJP said: I'm with Perdu - so many reasons for variation as in the above learned discussion the photo on the left is from an out of print book Wings across the Sea - the other taken by me of the same Sea Fury at Bankstown 1970 where the dark blue had weathered into grey - apologies they are not photos of Sea Kings Ex-FAAWAFU. CJP hello CJP, Sorry for the drift Crisp, I want to do one of these Sea Fury, So look like USN dark blue but seemingly, it is not. I bought a set for Australian Aicrafts colors and it's not the same shade of blue... As I use to triple cross my info before doing anything wrong, I'll ask if you have an idea of the FS for these antipodean Sea Furies ?? Completely stained by the sun is tempting too….🤔 But No... sincerely. CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyf117 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 (edited) Content withdrawn - I will NOT be threatened by a moderator, simply because I queried the actions of another... Edited June 27, 2020 by andyf117 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJP Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 1 hour ago, corsaircorp said: hello CJP, Sorry for the drift Crisp, I want to do one of these Sea Fury, So look like USN dark blue but seemingly, it is not. I bought a set for Australian Aicrafts colors and it's not the same shade of blue... As I use to triple cross my info before doing anything wrong, I'll ask if you have an idea of the FS for these antipodean Sea Furies ?? Completely stained by the sun is tempting too….🤔 But No... sincerely. CC Hello CC - I have posted an answer in Cold War/Ask all your Sea Fury questions here NAVY870, so we don't mess up Crisp's Sea King build CJP 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Best wishes for the interview Crisp! Ian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamden Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Bit late in the day but Best of Luck with your interview Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-FAAWAFU Posted May 22, 2018 Author Share Posted May 22, 2018 2 hours ago, andyf117 said: The burning question is, if (later) the same shade of grey top and bottom, why still two different shades of sling bands? Equally, if at some point they were going to the trouble of changing the finish of the blades, why would they change 90% of the blade... but leave the sling bands as they were before? Without finding some definite paint / finish directive, we’re never going to agree on this, are we? [And as we’ve already both said, staining and general weathering combined with “paint what you see” make it pretty academic anyway, unless you’re modelling a factory fresh aircraft]. The MoD never spends money for the sake of it. There is absolutely no advantage in changing the colour (of the blades, that is, not the aircraft itself. So why would they do it? [So, those black bands on the 771 blades; what’s that about? Exit left, ducking & weaving] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyf117 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 (edited) Content withdrawn - I will NOT be threatened by a moderator, simply because I queried the actions of another... Edited June 27, 2020 by andyf117 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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