SAC White Metal Legs - Quality Control Anyone?

[spruecutter96]

Hello, All. 

 

Firstly, I would point out that this is very much a "First World" issue...

 

I recently bought a set of Scale Aircraft Conversion 1/32nd white metal undercarriage legs for the Trumpeter F-105G Thunderchief. After having a close look at them, I noticed that the axels on both of the main-legs were distinctly curved (one a bit worse than the other). Having spent 15 quid on the set, this is a bit disappointing. 

 

I fully appreciate that white-metal has a tendency to bend when under pressure, but these legs are well packed and I have a feeling that the bending didn't happen in transit. I have a nasty suspicion that the legs were made this way and they were not checked properly before being packaged. 

 

Why are most replacement legs made of white-metal? Is it the cost of raw materials? The ease of casting?

 

I understand that G-Factor's legs are made of brass, but I can't find anyone in the UK who sells them. 

 

What is your experience of SAC's white-metal products?

 

Cheers.

 

Chris.    

Edited April 3, 2018 by spruecutter96
Adding a missing word.

[exdraken]

In short, bad experience..

 

 

Mostly regularily cast parts most of the time just copying the kit parts. Sometims even with flesh  an molding mistakesm sink mark included....

 

[Mike]

SAC just copy kit parts, even down to the ejector pin marks on occasion.  The bending could happen during mould removal or during cooling, and TBH G-Factor's Mig-31 legs were pretty much my worst modelling experience.  They seemed to have more moulding seams than I could deal with, and on top of all that, the kit parts on which they'd been based were put together wrongly, giving the nose an extra 3mm (roughly) height.  I gave up on mine in the end, writing them off to a bad experience.  I never did get a replacement set.

 

Eduard Bronze legs however are a whole different kettle of gerbils.  They are AWESOME!!!!! I've just used a couple of pairs on my recent Fw.190A dual-build here, and couldn't be happier

 

[Muzz]

Gave up on SAC gear legs a long time ago, poor copies of the kit parts in my opinion.

[dnl42]

G-Factor are good quality robust metal legs. Only issue is available selection.

 

There is a 1/32 F-105 set...

[fewr9fkr9595]

Yeah steer clear of SAC. 

 

[spruecutter96]

Folks have pretty much confirmed what I feared about SAC..... It's a real shame that they are generally the easiset legs to get hold of in the UK....

 

Thanks for the replies. 

 

Chris. 

 

PS: Has anyone ever attempted to drill down the middle of SAC legs and add a strong, steel pin inside or anything similar? If answer is yes, how did it go? 

Edited April 3, 2018 by spruecutter96
Overtyping a post....

[Murph]

7 minutes ago, spruecutter96 said:

PS: Has anyone ever attempted to drill down the middle of SAC legs and add a strong, steel pin inside or anything similar? If answer is yes, how did it go? 

If you're going to that much trouble, why not just do the same thing with the kit parts?  They will almost certainly have sharper molding anyway, be much cheaper, and should be strong enough with the extra support added.

 

Regards,

Murph

[spruecutter96]

Tamiya had the right idea when they brought their first 1/32 F-14 out many moons ago....

 

The plastic legs were moulded in two halves, so that you could insert a supplied metal pin inside the leg. The best of both worlds, surely? 

 

Chris. 

 

PS: Does anyone make resin replacement legs? I would have thought resin would be an ideal material for this sort of job.

Edited April 10, 2018 by spruecutter96
Correcting a typo.

[Antti_K]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

SAC just copy kit parts, even down to the ejector pin marks on occasion.  The bending could happen during mould removal or during cooling, and TBH G-Factor's Mig-31 legs were pretty much my worst modelling experience.  They seemed to have more moulding seams than I could deal with, and on top of all that, the kit parts on which they'd been based were put together wrongly, giving the nose an extra 3mm (roughly) height.  I gave up on mine in the end, writing them off to a bad experience.  I never did get a replacement set.

Same here. I bought SAC landing gears for my Airfix Javelins (4 of them) and Hasegawa Phantom. It only took a minute to realize that those white metal accessories were direct copies from original kit parts. Even the Javelin's bent nose gear leg was replicated. It was an easy decision to use kit parts in all these kits.

 

Well I can always melt those parts and use them as ballast.

 

Kind Regards,

Antti

[Mike]

Don't get me wrong - SAC gear does have uses for heavy models, or ones that you plan on loading up with weight, but the Eduard Bronze legs need to become more of a thing, so if you're reading this, petition Eduard to expand their range substantially.  Also, AMK go die-cast legs for a lot of their own kits, which in the case of the Mig-31 is a must, as mine have splayed out substantially since I finished her off, and I now face the difficult task of removing the legs from a finished model and replacing them with newly painted metal ones.  That's why I keep putting it off

[tempestfan]

15 minutes ago, spruecutter96 said:

 

PS: Does anyone make resin replacement legs? I would have thought resin would be an ideal material for this sort of job.

Not sure about aftermarket resin parts, but there was a Japanese manufacturer called TryAngle in the distant dark early days of resin kits who cast wires into their undercarriages, IIRC (I have their F-94C somewhere). Other early high quality mixed media manufacturers like Graphy Air and Skybirds 86 may have done something similar. 

[bzn20]

32 minutes ago, spruecutter96 said:

drill down the middle of SAC legs

What diameter drill bit are we talking about. 1.6 mm or 1/16th" ? Even double that you'll have a  flute clearing problem  . Got snap off written al over it..So much friction for a small dia bit to cope with, drill bit webs locked solid with the stuff. Bad enough going down the middle of Ally round bar with a 3.2mm (1/8th")..Then there is accuracy ,right down the centre of it. I'm sweating for you .

[spruecutter96]

Thanks for the further replies.

 

My thinking is use the SAC metal legs and construct a wood & plastic cradle for your model to sit on. It might not be very "purist" of me, but it has to be preferable to seeing the legs bent and/or broken a year down the line. 

 

Chris. 

[71chally]

8 hours ago, spruecutter96 said:

Hello, All. 

 

Firstly, I would point out that this is very much a "First World" issue...

 

I recently bought a set of Scale Aircraft Conversion 1/32nd white metal undercarriage legs for the Trumpeter F-105G Thunderchief. After having a close look at them, I noticed that the axels on both of the main-legs were distinctly curved (one a bit worse than the other). Having spent 15 quid on the set, this is a bit disappointing. 

 

I fully appreciate that white-metal has a tendency to bend when under pressure, but these legs are well packed and I have a feeling that the bending didn't happen in transit. I have a nasty suspicion that the legs were made this way and they were not checked properly before being packaged. 

 

Why are most replacement legs made of white-metal? Is it the cost of raw materials? The ease of casting?

 

I understand that G-Factor's legs are made of brass, but I can't find anyone in the UK who sells them. 

 

What is your experience of SAC's white-metal products?

 

Cheers.

 

Chris.    

My first SAC legs are the same as yours Chris, for the 32nd F-105G, and my feelings are exactly the same as you - why did I bother and spend the money!

They seem to be literally taken from a mold using the original kit legs,  with less strength and no added detail.

I think I'm going to stick with the kit legs and add brass rod into them somehow.

 

I have noticed that for the 48th Airfix Buccaneer they advertise two u/c leg sets, and one seems a lot more detailed than the other, so maybe some of their products have more work put into them?

Edited April 3, 2018 by 71chally

[spruecutter96]

The comment about the Buccaneer legs is interesting..... Did they have major issues with the first set they produced, I wonder?

 

Chris. 

[71chally]

I'm not sure, but here's the more detailed set,

http://www.scaleaircraftconversions.com/moreinfo.cfm?FROM=search&KIT=222

[spruecutter96]

Thanks for the link, 71chally.

 

BTW, like your avatar image... I haven't seen "Darkstar" for many years, but remember it pretty well. The intelligent, philosophical bomb is a great idea. 

 

Cheers.

 

Chris.  

[spruecutter96]

A few people have said that SAC items are merely copies of the original kit parts. Surely that practice is in breach of copyright? We are regularly told that it is a breach of copyright to make our own (home) copies of decal-sheets, so why would plastic parts not fall under the same province?

 

Chris.   

[redcap]

SAC use a soft pewter type metal rather than anything with some degree of structural integrity or strength. I have used a couple of their sets and ended up throwing both away as they bent alarmingly whilst cleaning them up and removing seam lines. Their WW1 u/c sets in particular are an (expensive) joke and actually bend whilst holding the things in your hand. An utter waste of time and money though as Mike said, Eduard's brass u/c sets are in another league altogether.

 

Gary

[Ben Brown]

Most of the models people are adding metal gear struts to are not in need of them, anyway. The original plastic struts are more than adequate for the job. Even the spindly main gear struts on my 1/48 Monogram F-105 were fine for almost 25 years (until I dropped the model while moving it! ). SAC's soft metal struts are usually a step backward, since they're not as sturdy as the plastic they are supposed to replace. 

 

Ben

[JohnT]

Tend to agree with Ben

 

On my shelf of doom lurks several unfinished models.  Only one has evidenced "gear droop".  All have standard plastic kit legs and the only one that drooped with bendy legs is a 1/48 Hasegawa FGR1 Phantom with the kit option of white metal legs.  If I ever get round to finishing it I will remove the metal ones and fit the plastic ones off the sprues that are still in the box.  That has made me cautious re white metal options.

 

Also they do seem to be just kit copies so if they are no stronger and indeed less so and just a clone why bother with the expense?

[exdraken]

I used SAC parts for the Hobbyboss 1/48 Tornado on the Airfix and Italeri ones....that is of course a great improvenent.....

But that comes with other issus as you also need a respective resin bay from Aires.....that also is not a drop in replacement....

 

By the way, has  anyone a good idea for the Academy/Italeri Hunter in 1/48? 

Does it need re-enforced legs?

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by exdraken

[Giorgio N]

On 3/4/2018 at 10:08 PM, spruecutter96 said:

PS: Does anyone make resin replacement legs? I would have thought resin would be an ideal material for this sort of job.

 

Resin is not the best material to guarantee long term stability under a load and resin landing gear can bend over time, reason why several manufacturers of resing kit also use metal for these parts while I've seen others adding metal rods into the resin. Today's resins are sure better but IMHO still not perfect

There are resins that can guarantee great rigidity over time, however they are also very hard to work with. They are also pretty expensive

 

On 4/4/2018 at 1:16 AM, spruecutter96 said:

A few people have said that SAC items are merely copies of the original kit parts. Surely that practice is in breach of copyright? We are regularly told that it is a breach of copyright to make our own (home) copies of decal-sheets, so why would plastic parts not fall under the same province?

 

Chris.   

 

A lot of aftermarket parts are really copies or modified copies of parts from plastic kits. I don't know how copyright laws work in this case but I would hazard the guess that simply modelling companies don't bother as in any case the aftermarket manufacturers do not take business away from them.

 

Couple of comments based on my experience: white metal has long been used to make landing gears for scale models and I've seen many such parts bend over time. White metal and pewter are used mainly because they are much easier to cast, having low melting point and filling moulds very well. Casting with these materials is so easy that years ago it was not uncommon for modellers to make parts in this materials at home without any special tool. I used to do this myself in my parents kitchen using a big spoon and plaster moulds.

I've also seen brass landing gears (can't remember where) and these were much better, way more rigid. And of course more diffcult to make and more expensive...

Adding an inner steel rod into a plastic leg is something I've done several times, sometimes it's easy and sometimes it's not. It's one of those tasks to plan in advance before assembling the parts of course and the success depends a lot on the shape of the parts.

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by Giorgio N

[spruecutter96]

Hi, Georgio.

 

Good to hear from you again. I hope you are well.

 

I'm coming to the conclusion that white-metal legs are more touble than they're worth. It's a shame but that may just be the way of these things. I guess there are much worse things to be troubled about...

 

Cheers.

 

Chris.