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Avro 504K, 1/32, Scratchbuild


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Another option, should you need it, for the cockpit sides: use thin plastic sheet and score it from the inside with a biro or similar. No bending required, the scores show through as high areas where the longerons would be. I use that method to reskin 1:72 turtle decks. I can't make a link at the mo as I'm on my phone, but a search for my Morane -Saulnier Type N or Sopwith Baby and Tabloid double build will show you what I mean.

 

Ian

 

 

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You seem to have made a very good recovery ther. The cockpit sides are a big improvement on the vacuform but I agree with Ian that scribing thin plastic sheet is also very effective and probably easier. Still looking very good though.

 

P

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10 hours ago, Bandsaw Steve said:

For all practical purposes it's a sheet of 'stick-on wood'. 

 

Your first couple of builds were all real wood.  Then plastic, then some brass.  Now you're onto 'stick-on-wood'.    It's all downhill from here I guess. 

Another couple of weeks and you'll be building plastic aeroplanes

 

10 hours ago, Bandsaw Steve said:

I found it in an arts and craft shop

 

won't the nice little girl in the haberdashery store be upset?

 

10 hours ago, Bandsaw Steve said:

but now I have decided to experiment with some brass sheet.

 

now we're talkin'

 

 

10 hours ago, Bandsaw Steve said:

Hopefully doing this will allow a nice sharp delineation of those edges.

 

I find the back edge of the blade (or even a broken blade) perfect for doing this - it scores a small kerf of metal with each swipe, rather than using the sharp edge which tries to 'push' the metal out of the way as it cuts

 

10 hours ago, Bandsaw Steve said:

Not perfect - but not bad either. I'm happy with the fit, the thinness of the sidewalls and the sharpness of the angular facets. I think this is looking much better than the last effort and reckon I can now see a sensible method for building the cockpit.

 

If you want the bras to follow the curvature of the front end of the fuselage, try annealing it first and it will bend and keep shape very easily.  Once you have the shape defined, you can retemper the brass to add the stiffness back.

 

 

Very nice update Steve, very nice

 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, hendie said:

 

If you want the bras to follow the curvature of the front end 

 

What else would I want bras to do? ‘Following the curvature of the front end’ is what they do best! 😜

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Brassed on

 

If you are annoyed with something it can be said that you are 'brassed off', so if you are happy with something - logic demands - that you should be 'brassed on'.  Right now I'm happy, and in particular I'm happy with brass and solder. Thanks to everyone who's taken the time to write in and suggest that I go down this particular path. So far I'm very happy with the outcome.

 

Here's what I've been up to.  First polish the brass bits.

 

Before...

IMG_6195

 

and after... Nice huh!

IMG_6196

 

Now get out the soldering gear - most of which was given to me by my dad. Dad is a dab hand at this soldering business.  In fact when this project is finished I think one of his 1/32 scale bicycles might end up stood next to the Avro. Student pilots in 1918 couldn't afford motor-cars and airfields are almost always most suitable for cycling.

IMG_6198

 

Start with slopping on Zinc Chloride solution where the joint goes. I'm not too sure exactly what this stuff does but I think it might etch the metal a little bit. In any case I think it somehow helps the solder to grip the brass. If anyone knows the exact details feel free to write in.

IMG_6199

 

Stick a brass bar on the front of the thing.

IMG_6202

 

In fact stick three brass bars as shown. These are purely structural - they do not represent any part of the real aircraft.  The soldering is pretty crude but I'm new to this and refuse to let perfectionism become a hindrance. The port sidewall is secure.

IMG_6203

 

Now trim the brass bars to the correct width of the floor of the cockpit and hold the other wall in place with some masking tape and solder again.  Here the starboard side of the cockpit is 'welded' in place.

IMG_6207

 

Now it's time to cut out the student's instrument panel.

IMG_6241

 

Check that it fits...

IMG_6242

 

and solder it in.

IMG_6246

Too easy...

 

Having studied a few photos of the rear cockpit I'm confident that the rear instrument panel looked like this and seems to be much more 'complete' than the front one - perhaps this was where the student sat for instrument training (if they did such a thing in 1918).

IMG_6247

 

But in reality the rear instrument panel does not extend from side-wall to side-wall - so I've had to sort of 'imagineer' another structural member that the panel will sit on.

IMG_6250

 

The tricky part with soldering is holding all the bits still while completing the weld. It's the only tricky part really.  Here I'm using a jeweller's vice. These things are very useful  indeed - if you ever find yourself short of hands these are a good substitute.

IMG_6253

 

But while on the subject of exotic tools check this one out. It's a surgical whatchamacallit.  I've seen every episode of M.A.S.H. and I still don't know what one of these is called! Anyhow, my neighbour used to be a salesman for surgical equipment - specialising in brain surgery would you believe! - and he very kindly gave me this widget. It's ideal for holding a length of solder.  Perhaps soldering has applications in brain surgery! What would I know!?! :shocked:

IMG_6255

 

Here's the structural beam in place.

IMG_6257

 

And here's the instrument panel bit stuck onto the beam.  I've learned one important thing about soldering - it seems you cannot sandwich two flat bits of brass together with solder. Solder seems to hold by wrapping around something and then freezing. So when I tried to solder these two bits together there was nothing for the solder to grip and the two bits just kept falling apart. Hence, these two bits, one on top of the other are held with two part araldite.  That's no problem - it's very strong.

IMG_6263

 

After a half hearted attempt to clean up the rough soldery bits, I grabbed this can of magic. It's 'high-build' panel beater's undercoat. 'High build' meaning it's fairly thick and can hide a lot of sins in the surface finish. Ideal!

IMG_6265

 

Here is the finish right after I've spayed too much onto the assembly. The paint is still wet and thick-looking, but this stuff dries and levels-out beautifully - so it actually looks much better once dry.  Please believe me. 

IMG_6264

I have now dry-fitted this assembly to the fuselage and it sits in it's spot like a dream and I'm well happy, but I'm not going to show you right now because there's been a lot of work done on the fuselage and I want to save that excitement for the next post.

 

In the meantime - brass and solder is my new favourite thing. I'm well 'brassed on' and I'm thinking hard about future projects with two key criteria:

  • Must use a lathe
  • Must use brass and solder

Certainly haven't settled on a subject but am open to suggestions.

 

Best Regards,

Bandsaw Steve

 

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1 hour ago, Bandsaw Steve said:

I'm new to this and refuse to let perfectionism become a hindrance.

 

'cept when you're commenting offering constructive criticism on other folks posts!

 

1 hour ago, Bandsaw Steve said:

Now it's time to cut out the student's instrument panel.

 

going back to the 'back edge of the blade' thingy - lots of swipes = a nice straight cut.  A few swipes = a nice sharp fold line

Of course you may have chosen the raduised bend to allow for adjustment to the fuselage sides. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Bandsaw Steve said:

it seems you cannot sandwich two flat bits of brass together with solder.

 

You can but it takes a little bit of skill (which explains why I have not been able to successfully repeat it) - you need to tin both sides of the plates first. Clamp them then apply the heat.  It's worked occasionally for me during trials but not to the extent that I would trust it on good parts

 

I keep a jar of acetone handy for cleaning up the parts afterwards and removing any flux residue.  A few swipes with a stiff brush removes all the crud quite effectively

 

 

nice work - I'm looking forward to the next installments

 

 

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Very good piece of soldering there. I found it to be much easier than I had anticipated - I too was only soldering lengths of brass together. Holding everything steady and in position is undoubtedly the most difficult part. The cockpit is going to look very fine when complete. Looking forward to whatever else you have done to the fuselage.

 

P

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Spiffing progress on the metalworking Steve - great to see you getting stuck in to the soldering!

If you've a Dremel/rotary tool thingy I find one of those small diamond coated birrs a perfect tool for sculpting any excess solder flush with the brass parts.

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The problem with solder not sticking could also be due to not getting the metal hot enough - those brass sheets will make excellent heatsinks which will suck the power out of a standard  electronics soldering iron. Maybe invest ins something a bit meatier? Also, soldering wood doesn't work - I know, I tried.

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1 hour ago, Redshift said:

 Maybe invest ins something a bit meatier? 

I can see myself investing in a small blow-torch style soldering kit one day. But I can also see myself burning the shed down - so there is due cause for hesitation . 🔥 

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On 10/2/2018 at 2:12 PM, Bandsaw Steve said:

I can see myself investing in a small blow-torch style soldering kit

I have one of these Steve,36233_P&$prodImageMedium$ it has a bit more power and runs off lighter fluid, it is small and manageable but a little more tricky to use, practice sessions would help. I had a feeling you would like this soldering malarkey and it has so many applications.

You may also find that using one of these will avoid the heat sink issue mentioned by Redshift allowing the soldering of flat panels and larger items.

Have fun and great work.

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Fuselage

 

Thanks Head in the Clouds - that looks like a good tip. Think I will look into that.  For now though it's back to malarkey with wood.

 

The fuselage of this aircraft has some subtle but important shapes that, at this scale, must be modelled. For example the vertical sidewalls of the fuselage aren't vertical at all, they have distinctive ridges running along the length of the fuselage where the longerons support the fabric. =As a result the upright fuselage sidewalls consist of three 'faceted' shapes that terminate on the longeron.  This photo from a few months ago might explain what I'm talking about. Ignore the red line in this case, but look at the faceted shape of the upright sidewalls in section 'C'. This shape runs the length of the fuselage but gets progressively less pronounced towards the tail and could be a tricky to model  especially because the longeron under the fabric needs to be represented as nice sharp straight line.  Hmmmmm….

IMG_5188_LI

 

Before I launch into that though; a few pages back Hendie was wondering what the slots on the bottom of the fuselage were.  As explained at the time they are wholly accidental and need to be filled, as do one or two other bits and pieces as you will see.  The filler used in this case is two-part automotive 'bog' filler. I've sung it's praises before on these pages so won't do it again.

IMG_6190

 

It can leave a bit of a mess...

IMG_6194

 

prior to sanding...

IMG_6211

 

but generally cleans up very nicely.  This is a good reason to shy away from leaving models in a natural wood finish. I don't understand how @albergman & @Redshift can possibly even contemplate tackling subjects like this in natural wood.  That's much harder than this since there's little or no opportunity to use filler and no chance to 'paint out' any surface imperfections.  What they do is difficult.

IMG_6212

 

The brass cockpit fits in here nicely and now I can check that the representation of the longerons that run along the cockpit edge are going to project as a straight line all along the fuselage. Yep - they actually line up pretty well. 🙂

IMG_6214

 

Well enough for these to be marked up anyway.

IMG_6217

 

And for this bit of 'stick-on-wood' to be stuck on.

IMG_6219

 

As mentioned above the thickness of the 'facet' in the sidewall is much greater toward the front of the cockpit than the rear so I've crudely modelled this by layering multiple layers of 'stick-on-wood' towards the front, and fewer and fewer towards the tail.  Hendie's going to have a field-day making fun of this post! 😂

IMG_6223

 

Now for this stuff - available from Bunnings if you live in Australia.  It's very similar to plastic-wood but finer grained and more workable and can be thinned down with water. It's actually a lot like pottery clay in feel and general properties - at least when wet - but once dry it's not brittle.  Good stuff this!

IMG_6224

 

Slop it on and cut some X's in the wood so it's got something to grip onto.IMG_6227

 

Sort of smooth it and kneed it into the right shape - flatten out the steps between each of the multiple layers of stick-on-wood and fill in the angled sides of the fuselage that aren't vertical.

IMG_6228

 

Check that the cockpit still fits nicely (and it does!)

IMG_6267

 

Let the timber-mate dry out and repeat the process. Then sand it smooth. If you look closely at this picture you will see that the timber-mate has defined a bulge that runs along the side of the fuselage. It's still a bit too smooth at this stage - it doesn't look like there's a longeron under there yet - but I think I have a way around that. I'm happy at this point.

IMG_6282

 

Here's the mighty machine viewed from the front...

IMG_6279

 

and here it is from the rear. If you look closely you will notice that I've done a bit more on the wings. I might drivel on about that next time.

IMG_6281

 

But here's the real star of the show. As mentioned last time, my dad is a bit of dab hand with a soldering iron. Here's one of his 1/32 scale bikes that he likes to make for fun. This one might end up lying on the ground next to the Avro - temporarily abandoned by some lazy, young, student pilot who couldn't be bothered walking it off the airfield. 😡

IMG_6274

 

That's it for now,

Thanks for all the comments, suggestions and interest!


Bandsaw Steve

 

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1 hour ago, Bandsaw Steve said:

Hendie's going to have a field-day making fun of this post!

 

Not at all Steve.  Now I'm getting to the I'm-mightily-intrigued phase. I love the brass cockpit area but wondering how you are going to be able to tie the wood - brass - wood stages together.

 

This is looking very nice indeed

 

1 hour ago, Bandsaw Steve said:

 

IMG_6279

 

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I agree with Hendy - how are yo going to fix all the pieces together? No doubt all will be revealed in due course.

 

As for those who scratch build in wood and leave it natural - I too greatly respect their skills. I could not make a model successfully without some filler and paint to cover it up....!

 

P

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Back to Basics

 

In Australia every six months or so we get a new Prime Minister - whether we want one or not - and each time we get a new one, he or she,  reminds us of the importance of 'getting back to basics',  'remembering where we came from' and so forth.

 

With this in mind then, it's time to get away from making fiddly little detailed 'cockpitty' bits. It's time to get back to some real modelling!   Sawing stuff out, slapping paint about and sanding it back - you know the kind of thing. Core Bandsaw Steve values - the stuff of Menzies, Howard, Keating and Muldoon. :shocked: 

 

Here's a question for all you Brits out there.  If Britain leaving the E.U. is 'Brexit' - then when Britain entered was it called 'Brentry?'  I'll leave it with you... 😬  … But I will say this;  as far as I'm concerned - Theresa May - or may not! 

 

Anyhow, onto important matters. That little cut-out bit above the pilot's head - the one that allows him to see what's directly above and slightly in-front - needs to be sorted out.  Same old story as usual, at least to start with. Stick the paper on and cut the thing out with a fret saw.  Very easy - back to basics...

IMG_6177

Only problem was that I cannot cut a perfect semi-circle with a fret saw. Who can?!?!

 

So it's time to finally use my new lathe in anger, although I'm not actually using it as a lathe, and I'm not actually angry.

Sorry about the rather crumby focus on this photo, but here I've taken an everyday piece of dowelling and used some E6000 glue to stick some sandpaper onto it.  Once the glue is dry I had a brand new attachment for my lathe...

IMG_6235

 

...a rotory sanding thingamabobber for sanding out the insides of semi-circles.  Here you can see the rough cut-out semi-circle about to get the treatment.

IMG_6237

 

And here is the outcome.  I'm happy with this.  But I'd want it to be successful after spending all that money on the lathe!

IMG_6238

 

Now it's onto the undercoat.

IMG_6292

 

I still don't really know whether using this primer, sealer, undercoat is actually necessary, because the spray on undercoat works pretty well on wood - but this is the stuff that I used on the Mig15 and the Submarine - so I've decided to be Conservative and just do the same thing again. I don't want to Labour the point but if you are going to use this stuff make sure you apply it Liberally.

IMG_6293

 

Get some good coverage everywhere including this bit. This is the piece that sits on the top of the fuselage - perhaps it's the back bench.

IMG_6296

 

Make sure you get some on both the left-wing and the right-wing. Let it dry and sand it back.

IMG_6299

 

Don't forget the main body of the aircraft. Here I'm addressing issues with the centre-right.

IMG_6300

 

As you can see - the basic structure is two tiered - an upper and a lower house.  Whoops I mean wing...

IMG_6303

So - there you have it - a complete political whitewash!

 

If I keep going like this I'll get to be Australia's Prime Minister one day...

The only question is which day it will be... 😂

 

Bandsaw Steve,

Honourable Member for not much really...

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