Revell 1:72 F-4F Phantom - can it be converted to F-4B or F-4J?

[bootneck]

I have the 1:72 Revell (04615) F-4F Phantom, with German Air Force decals, which I would like to build as the larger nose F-4B or F-4J of the US Navy.  Would it be a, fairly simple, task of rebuilding the nose section or are there other major visible differences?  Has anyone done a conversion?  If so, is there a WiP anywhere?

 

cheers

 

Mike

[Giorgio N]

It's not the easiest job, can be done but a lot depends on how interested you are in the little details. A J would be the easiest but I mean easiest, not easy. A B would require even more scratchbuilding as the wing is quite different, lacking the bulge on top and bottom for the larger wheels.

The radome is the main difference of course, you could simply cut the fuselage where the new radome needs placing and scratchbuld the part. With the new radome you will also need different intakes imediately behind (the small ones on the lower front fuselage).

Moving along the fuselage, the naval variant have a retractable IFR probe on the right side, just rescribe the relevant panel lines. The J and S also have fairings on the main intakes that need adding. Moving back, the J used the same engine

The wings would need some work too. First of all don't use the slatted wing for a J, use the RF-4 wing that IIRC are still included in the F-4F box. You could use the slatted wing if building an S if you don't mind the fact that the slats are of different shape on the F and the S.

Work on the wing would also involve adding the catapult attachment points on the bottom and the reinforcements on the top of the landing gear legs pivot point. If building an S, this variant also had prominent reinforcement plates across the undersides of wings and fuselage.

Inner pylons should be replaced with the so called "angled style" and the wheels have a different hub.

Last of the major structural modifications, the horizontal tailplanes on the F are not slotted so must be modified or replaced with the correct slotted type.

Then there are a good number of small and less small antennas, sensors fairings and so on. Oh, and did I mention that the rear cockpit is different in the naval variants, having no side consolles ?

 

As you see it would be quite a difficult job to convert the Revell kit into a naval variant, so much that I doubt it would be worth it

[bootneck]

Thanks Giorgio, that is quite comprehensive.

I am not in any hurry to build this, although I do want to start it quite soon.  I think I shall break those steps you mention into phases and work my way slowly through them.  Now that I know what, most, of the requirements are; I can start trawling for more photo's etc., for the build.  I have the new Warpaint series book on the F-4B and F-4J and that has inspired me to build an "out of my scale" Phantom.

 

Thanks again.

 

Mike

[iainpeden]

There are a couple of Esci F-4C/Js on ebay at the moment- if you're ok with the comparatively minor issue of the thicker wing for the C/D/J "doing" for the B - which is a lot easier than chopping the F about. Then of course - you can do a bit of work on the F to use it as an E - or get some decals for the very fancy Luftwaffe markings which exist.

 

Don't underestimate the work need on the wings - the B/C/D/J had the hard wing - like the RAF ones , while the F, later and retrofitted E and S and the last 16 RF-4E's had the soft wing with the manoevering slates and asociated lumps and bumps.

 

 

 

[bootneck]

Thanks Iain.  I am hoping to achieve this at minimal cost and, as I have a Phantom, I would try to do it with what I have.  Thinking about it, I may try getting a swap in the Wanted section first; although I don't think the F-4F version was that popular.   If I'm unsuccessful then I'll have a go at following Giorgio's details.

 

The reason I want to build a Phantom in 1:72 scale, rather than my normal 1:144 scale, is that I have checked my display cabinet and found that I could fit a 1:72nd Phantom in there, if the wings are folded; hence the Navy version.

 

Mike

always misses out on the easy option

[iainpeden]

Pretty sure the wings could fold on all the models and I think the Revell kit has seperate outer wing panels so you could do a Lutwaffe one with the wings folded. Apparently it was cheaper to keep to the original plans than redesign.

[bootneck]

Thanks Iain, all this information will be really helpful.  I am going to get the kit from the stash and check what it has in terms of parts etc.  It's been a while since I bought it and can't remember what is included.

 

Mike

[Giorgio N]

I've checked a few sprue pics of the Revell kit and I can confirm that the parts for the non slatted wing are still there, so the kit will allow building a "hard wing" Phantom with no problem.

Regarding folding wings, the F-4E and derivatives (like the F) retained the folding wings but had the related hydraulic mechanisms removed. Wings could be folded manually after removing the locks. Have to say that I've never seen pictures of land based operational F-4E/F with folded wings but this doesn't mean it was never done.

[tempestfan]

1 hour ago, Giorgio N said:

 

The radome is the main difference of course, you could simply cut the fuselage where the new radome needs placing and scratchbuld the part. With the new radome you will also need different intakes imediately behind (the small ones on the lower front fuselage).

 

The radome diameter on the B/N/J/S is considerably larger than on the E/F, IIRC, so this would mean recontouring much of the lower front fuselage. Good bye surface detail, if it was relevant for a B anyway...

Mike, as I understand you don't want to spend additional money, the Fujimi and Hase B's are out. The ancient Airfix and Revell B's should be available cheaply and are acceptably accurate, and certainly less work to get a similar result as with an extensive rebuild of the Revell. The latter option sounds comparably masochistic to me as my plan to one day build the Lindberg XF8U-1 into an acceptable early production machine...

[Giorgio N]

18 minutes ago, tempestfan said:

The radome diameter on the B/N/J/S is considerably larger than on the E/F, IIRC, so this would mean recontouring much of the lower front fuselage. Good bye surface detail, if it was relevant for a B anyway...

Mike, as I understand you don't want to spend additional money, the Fujimi and Hase B's are out. The ancient Airfix and Revell B's should be available cheaply and are acceptably accurate, and certainly less work to get a similar result as with an extensive rebuild of the Revell. The latter option sounds comparably masochistic to me as my plan to one day build the Lindberg XF8U-1 into an acceptable early production machine...

 

The B radome is larger but the junction where the E differs is way further back than the start of the E radome. The whole frontal area differs forward of a give section and of course the whole area needs scratchbuilding.

I forgot to mention, but should be obvious, that the gun fairing is not present on any naval variant.

[bootneck]

1 hour ago, tempestfan said:

The radome diameter on the B/N/J/S is considerably larger than on the E/F, IIRC, so this would mean recontouring much of the lower front fuselage. Good bye surface detail, if it was relevant for a B anyway...

Mike, as I understand you don't want to spend additional money, the Fujimi and Hase B's are out. The ancient Airfix and Revell B's should be available cheaply and are acceptably accurate, and certainly less work to get a similar result as with an extensive rebuild of the Revell. The latter option sounds comparably masochistic to me as my plan to one day build the Lindberg XF8U-1 into an acceptable early production machine...

 

44 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

The B radome is larger but the junction where the E differs is way further back than the start of the E radome. The whole frontal area differs forward of a give section and of course the whole area needs scratchbuilding.

I forgot to mention, but should be obvious, that the gun fairing is not present on any naval variant.

Thank you Giorgio and Tempestfan.  I am starting to think that this is going to be too much to handle, especially as I'm not use to such a large scale kit .   I've decided to have a sale of some of my Space stuff and plan to buy a cheap, but fairly accurate B instead.  I will keep the information that you everyone has provided for future use.

 

Thanks again

 

Mike

[XV107]

10 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

Have to say that I've never seen pictures of land based operational F-4E/F with folded wings but this doesn't mean it was never done.

 

Not quite what you meant, but... [from http://luckypuppy.net/i-watched-as-the-phantom-crashed/ - crew in this one sighed, muttered something about an interesting day in the office and put the aircraft down in one piece at a slightly sportier landing speed than normally adopted]

[Giorgio N]

Yes, not exactly what I meant but a very cool picture

I had read of similar instances, some of which unfortunately led to the loss of the aircraft and crew, like the loss of an Israeli F-4E that had both wings folding suddenly just after takeoff.

[Nigel Bunker]

It's easier than you think. A year or so ago I converted a Revell 1/32 F-4F into an F-4J. I used a resin nose from DJ Parkins, and if you cut at the correct panel line the new nose can simply be glued on. From memory there were about 18 detail changes to make, the cockpit and mainwheel hubs spring to mind. I did this as I couldn't afford a Tamiya F-4J but was able to pick up a Revell F-4F cheaply from Wonderland Models.

 

I can't post the pictures of it but they are here

 

And here's the list I came up with of the mods needed:

1. Chop off the nose and fit the larger Radome

2. Change the cockpit to USN type

3. Fit the catapult hook recesses (less the hooks for F-4J(UK)

4. Change the engine fronts as I believe the bullets were smaller on USN F-4s.

5. Modify the main wheels to USN types instead of the USAF ones that were fitted to F-4Fs.

6. Remove the reinforcing plates from the tailplanes and add leading edge slats to them.

7. Add the  fairing to the top rear of the tailplane (RWR?)

8. Modify the outer wing panels to be unslotted - plastic card & filler.

9. Add the empty RWR units to the top edge of the intakes.

10. Modify the AIM-9 rails to the shorter length used on RAF F-4s unlike the lengthened ones on Luftwaffe F-4s.

11. Modify the AIM-120s to Aim-7s and the AIM 9s to AIM-9L

12. Make new nosewheel doors from plastic card.

13. Make & fit aerials as required.

14. Use the US H-7 ejection seats included in the kit (rather than the Luftwaffe GH-7A seats also in the kit) and add the various straps and pipes missing using wine bottle foil and wire.

15. Make & fit new air intakes just behind nose.

16: Fill refuelling receptacle on spine and scribe new door outline starboard side under rear cockpit.

17. Add strap reinforcement on u/s wings and outer wings.

18. Hump shaped bulge on top of wings above u/c legs.

 

 

 

[bootneck]

Hi Nigel,

 

that's just the info and images I need, thank you.  I shall be using the Revell 1:72 kit for this, as it is the only one I have, and will scratchbuild a new nose.  I have a diagram now so can make the nose from plastic sheet and Milliput.

 

cheers

 

Mike

[Antti_K]

Hello Mike!

 

Some 20+ years ago I used a Revell 1/72 scale F-4F kit to build a British FGR.2. I had two books giving me four or five grainy photographs of the subject and that was all I needed... Of course there was a "mention" about Rolls-Royce engines and I noted the shorter re-heaters. No problem, simply cut some off from kit parts. Life modelling  was easier back then . The conversion was very simple. As someone said earlier all surface detailing was lost.

 

I found the model and will post some photos for you.

 

Kind Regards,

Antti

[bootneck]

Hi Antti,

 

thank you, that also sounds interesting and I would like to see those photo's.

 

Best Wishes

 

Mike

[Antti_K]

Here we go.

 

To make a FGR.2 I:

- made a new nose radome (can't remember but I probably used a surplus spinner, some plasticard and filler)

- removed the Leading Edge slats and fairings

- made a new nose gear doors from plasticard

- made the strike camera from plasticard (although I didn't have a slightest idea what it was...)

- cut the re-heaters and filled the petals

- made the auxiliary air doors from thin plasticard

- made a dummy sparrow from a surplus missile (note how over sized it is)

 

Almost all decals came from the spares box. Some markings (wing walk area and the Gunner's Stripe) are painted by hand.

 

If you wish to build a F-4J then simply follow the first three steps.

 

 

A close up showing the nose. I gave the model a quick wash so there is still water inside the canopy. I used a "Flying Can Opener" decal from a Matchbox Tempest, hence the wrong colours...

 

 

The very yellow under surface. Originally painted with Humbrol 147 and a couple of coats of varnishes. Add 20+ years and this is how your model will look like.

 

 

It would be interesting to place this old model side by side with the new Airfix FG.1 which I have "on the production line".

 

 

I'm wondering how I ever managed to paint those ejection seat firing handles. Today I'm struggling with 1/48 scale items!

 

Kind Regards,

Antti

[Duncan B]

I was once asked to make a Phantom FG1 to be presented to our departing Eng Off in ASF at Leuchars. At that time the only real option was the Matchbox kit which I couldn't get hold of so modified an F-4J and hand painted the markings. When I think back now I shudder, I do hope the Eng Off threw the ghastly thing out the moment he got home!

 

Something else to bare in mind is that the Revell kit's canopy is way too shallow and looks odd whether you have it closed or open. It's a heap of work you are proposing to do but good on you for taking it on.

 

Duncan B

[Antti_K]

Hello Duncan!

 

Here is a little -not so "scientific"- comparison between the real thing and Revell model.

 

 

To me it looks like the main problem lies in the fixed middle part; it is too long making the pilots canopy too short. Wind shield looks pretty good but some sanding is required on top of the pilot's canopy. Not sure about navigator's canopy. It is very possible that I painted the rear frame in wrong position.

 

Kind Regards,

Antti