Barracuda II - Avenger - Martlet / Wildcat

[HMS Tern]

Greetings all.

 

I've been given a set of photos taken during WWII by a sailor posted to Orkney in WWII, most likely shots from 1945 or at least that end of the war.

 

The majority of the photos are devoid of aircraft but a few are worth posting here for general interest, particularly the Barracuda II.

 

Can anyone ID the Barracuda from the code (which I think says 'ACH' or 'AC8'? Hoping someone with a copy of Sturtivant's FAA book will track it down...)

 

Although the bulk of the photos appear to be taken around Hatston (HMS Sparrowhawk, near Kirkwall, Orkney) I am almost certain the Barracuda pic is NOT taken in Orkney at all. The scenery does not fit. Any ideas? Hoping the plane's history will give us a clue.  The person I got the photos from has applied for the RN service record of the gent who served in Orkney and (might) have taken the photos but will take a while yet.

The image with the Avenger II (?) and Wildcat / Martlet (a Mk VI ?) is a cropped portion of a larger image so quality not so good. There's a tail just visible far left, too. Whassat?

 

Any thoughts, ID etc most welcome! These are part of a set soon to appear in a display at Orkney's fabulous Fossil and Heritage Centre in Burray and they've asked me to interpret the batch. 

 

With that in mind, please don't share this beyond the forum for now. Ta!

 

Thanks!

Andrew

 

 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2018 by HMS Tern
Updated image links to point to flickr instead of photobucket.

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, HMS Tern said:

The image with the Avenger II (?) and Wildcat / Martlet (a Mk VI ?) is a cropped portion of a larger image so quality not so good. There's a tail just visible far left, too. Whassat

Swordfish?

 

picked as it shows strut and same camo.

 

The Mk number depended on who built them,  TBF Avenger - Grumman = Mk.I,   TBM Avenger - Eastern = Mk.II

The C type upper wing cam in in Jan 1945,  and the contrast between the nose and wing suggest the black nose scheme

 

Quote

Black appears to have been painted over the nose and down the side, sometimes right down the side, back to the leading edge of the wing on some Temperate Sea Scheme /Anti Submarine camouflaged squadrons on North Atlantic/Norway operations (see following photos, p320, 853 NAS Air Britain Publications - Sqdns of the FAA and photo of JZ150 below

see here for more

 

 

the tall tail of the Wildcat suggest  an FM-2/Mk.VI

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/wildcatfaaba_1.htm

 

 

The line up of 3 different types suggest maybe a post war open day display,   pure supposition though.

 

Not much but may help a little.

 

cheers

T

 

 

 

[Seahawk]

TBH I can't actually see the code on the Barracuda at all.  If it were ACH, it may be from 736 Sq at St Merryn, Cornwall, which at one time or another had other Barracudas coded ACF (DN633) and ACG (LS707).  The mist, rain and low-lying hills are not inconsistent with the area around there.  AC8 doesn't fit into any FAA code system I recognise.

 

The Avenger has the black nose with white undersurfaces often associated with 853 Sq from HMS Queen.  It has the post Jan 1945 upperwing roundel.  HMS Queen was based at Scapa Flow from 2 March 1945, taking part in anti-shipping strikes off Norway.  853 appear to have disembarked to Hatston when she was at Scapa (29 Mar 45 - 3 Apr 45, 13-27 Apr 45).

 

The Wildcat appears to have the taller fin of a Wildcat VI, with which 853 Sq, as a composite unit, was also equipped.

 

PS Agree with Troy: Swordfish.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Seahawk

[ClaudioN]

1 hour ago, HMS Tern said:

The image with the Avenger II (?) and Wildcat / Martlet (a Mk VI ?) is a cropped portion of a larger image so quality not so good. There's a tail just visible far left, too. Whassat?

 

 

I'd say the Martlet is indeed a Mk. VI (high tail). On the far left is, I think, the tail of a Swordfish. Like the Swordfish, the Avenger in the middle seems to be in the 'ASW' scheme, with white undersides and fuselege sides, and a large black 'anti-dazzle' fuselage area in front of the cockpit.

 

The Barracuda rings some bell, but I don't get it (yet).

 

Cheers

Claudio

 

[HMS Tern]

Thanks, all, for such a swift response! Outstanding.

All sounds good to me.

Swordfish tail seems to be almost certain.

And seemingly unanimous on Wildcat VI (this fits with likely date - 1945.  821, 825, 846, 853 Sqns all passed through Hatston in April/May that year. Amongst the photos in this collection are shots of the visit of First Lord, 11 May 1945 - several images of the visit can be seen at IWM website e.g. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205160027, 

Note the IWM image shows crew of Trumpeter at Hatston. 846 Sqn on board her at that time.

 

47 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

The Avenger has the black nose with white undersurfaces often associated with 853 Sq from HMS Queen.

47 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

HMS Queen was based at Scapa Flow from 2 March 1945, taking part in anti-shipping strikes off Norway.  853 appear to have disembarked to Hatston when she was at Scapa (29 Mar 45 - 3 Apr 45, 13-27 Apr 45).

That fits nicely! 853 also recorded (in Gregor Lamb's 'Sky Over Scapa') as being at Hatston at this time with Avenger IIs and Wildcat VIs.

Same source: 856 Sqn Avenger II (from Premier) - but not until 19 May 1945. 

53 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

The line up of 3 different types suggest maybe a post war open day display,   pure supposition though.

Makes sense too - First Lord's visit 11 May 1945, special line up for inspection?

 

47 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

TBH I can't actually see the code on the Barracuda at all.  

Tricky, even with the below slightly enhanced extract. Possibly 'ACB'.

 

Again, thanks a million for all this! Much appreciated.

 

P.S. Swordfish likely of 771 Squadron, HMS Tern (RNAS Twatt), on a visit!

Edited March 23, 2018 by HMS Tern

[tempestfan]

Hard to tell on the mobile, but the serial of the likely Swordfish looks like W5194 or -84.

[Seahawk]

1 hour ago, tempestfan said:

Hard to tell on the mobile, but the serial of the likely Swordfish looks like W5194 or -84.

I envy you your eyesight.  However neither serial is in a recognised Swordfish range: the only W-serialled Swordfish were in the W58xx and W59xx ranges.

[ClaudioN]

1 hour ago, Seahawk said:

I envy you your eyesight.  However neither serial is in a recognised Swordfish range: the only W-serialled Swordfish were in the W58xx and W59xx ranges.

Photobucket strikes again...

Anyway, from memory: the Swordfish had 4-inch 'ROYAL NAVY' titles and what appear to be 8-inch serials. I believe this must come from a late batch: I'd suggest NS1xx, which makes it a Mk. III. The unit might be No. 835 Squadron, whose equipment in 1945 was indeed Wildcat VI and Sowrdfish III. The unit disbanded at Hatston on March 31st, 1945.

Possible serials could be NS185 or NS186, that appear to match the indistinct shape representing the serial on the picture.

 

The Barracuda unit might be either No. 736 Squadron ('AC' unit code), that is, the School of Air Combat at St. Merryn, or No. 783 Squadron ('A0' unit code), the latter being an ASV radar training squadron based at Arbroath. I'd say the code appearance in the photo is compatible with the assumption of yellow codes.

 

Claudio

 

[HMS Tern]

835 Squadron does seem the likeliest for the Swordfish then, although I wouldn't rule out 771 (Twatt). Lamb's Sky Over Scapa only lists Wildcat VI at Hatston for 835 - only Swordfish ashore in Orkney in 1945 were from 771, according to him, and were at Twatt. But if pirmary sources say otherwise...

See below, max possible resolution from scan showing Swordfish tail. Best I can manage I'm afraid. On flickr this time - is flickr a better option in general than photobucket? I've used flickr for years, new to p-bucket.

(I also envy your eyesight, tempestfan!)

 

And while I'm here... the only other 'plane pictured in the set shows an Expeditor II, presumably of 712 Squadron based at Hatston, arriving on 11 May 1945 with the First Lord as a passenger. If you can read THAT number.... wow... 

 

 

[Graham Boak]

712 didn't have Expeditors, so I suspect this belonged to a visiting unit.  KP110 was used by 781 at Lee as an Admiral's barge, but the dates don't fit, as it wasn't shipped to the UK until April 1945 and was delivered to 799 Sq at Lee in June.  For too many Expeditors there is simply no information known, which as most went to the Far East is perhaps less surprising.  Of the few known to have been in the UK, most went to 782 Sq at Donibristle but these carried the Merlin xxx name and number on the nose.  Though a quick repaint could have been called for, under these circumstance.  Most of these were Mk.Is - are you sure it's a Mk.II? 

[Seahawk]

23 hours ago, HMS Tern said:

 

And while I'm here... the only other 'plane pictured in the set shows an Expeditor II, presumably of 712 Squadron based at Hatston, arriving on 11 May 1945 with the First Lord as a passenger. If you can read THAT number.... wow... 

 

 

Owing to my miraculous vision I can assert with considerable confidence that it is Expediter C.II HD760 of 782 Sq Donibristle.  This was apparently named MERLIN L but I can't see that in the photo.

 

PS See Sky Over Scapa, p.145.

 

Misident: see posts 12 and 14.

Edited March 25, 2018 by Seahawk

[HMS Tern]

 

38 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

are you sure it's a Mk.II? 

No. Far from it. I forget exactly where but I read that RAF had I's, RN had II's.

 

39 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

Owing to my miraculous vision I can assert with considerable confidence that it is Expediter C.II HD760 of 782 Sq Donibristle.  This was apparently named MERLIN L but I can't see that in the photo.

 

PS See Sky Over Scapa, p.145.

The photo in Sky Over Scapa (p.175 in my edition) of Mr Brendan Bracken (it is he, although Lamb was not sure. Breckan was First Lord 25 May to 26 July 1945) arriving at Hatston. The number is clearly visible in that photo right enough!

 

But the photo I've posted is carrying his predecessor, A.V.Alexander, on 11 May 1945. May well be the same plane.

 

Is Lamb wrong to list 712 at Hatston in 1945? He states they had Expediter and Dominie.

 

What is the official line on spelling btw, Expeditor or Expediter?

[Graham Boak]

The 3rd edition of Air Britain's The Squadrons of the Fleet Air Arm has 712 at Hatston, with Sea Otters, Travellers and Reliants.  No Expediters or Dominies.  This book also says Expediters - for example both Mk.Is and Mk.IIs with 782 Sq.  Sturtivant's FAA Aircraft 1939-1945 calls them Expediters in the headings but Expeditor in a caption, but includes no known allocations to 712 Sq.  Putnam's Beech Aircraft calls them Expeditors, but their Aircraft of the Royal Navy and Aircraft of the RAF both refer to Expediters.  The Oxford Concise Dictionary says Expediter.

 

I can't find any reference to 712 Sq (or indeed its predecessor 771) among the Dominies.  I suspect that 782's Dominies and Expediters were very common visitors (visiters?) to Hatston so may have been confused as residents.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Graham Boak

[Seahawk]

39 minutes ago, HMS Tern said:

 

The photo in Sky Over Scapa (p.175 in my edition) of Mr Brendan Bracken (it is he, although Lamb was not sure. Breckan was First Lord 25 May to 26 July 1945) arriving at Hatston. The number is clearly visible in that photo right enough!

 

But the photo I've posted is carrying his predecessor, A.V.Alexander, on 11 May 1945. May well be the same plane.

 

....

 

What is the official line on spelling btw, Expeditor or Expediter?

You must be lucky enough to have the 2nd ed of Gregor's book.

 

Good grief, how many times in 5 months does a First Lord of the Admiralty visit Scapa?  The photo of HD760 not only apparently shows the wrong First Lord but is also taken at Twatt so I withdraw my correlation to the aircraft in your photo.  Kind of you to spare my blushes by suggesting that the same aircraft may have been used on both occasions but that seems an unwarranted assumption. 

 

NB the serial presentation: black with light coloured outline.  Wonder whether this is a silver outline left around a black serial when an uncamouflaged airframe was camouflaged or whether it's just the FAA being quirky again.

 

I dimly recall reading somewhere that a conscious decision was made that in British service the US Expeditor would be known as the Expediter.  Not sure that that message communicated itself to everyone at the time, even less now.

[Graham Boak]

Did the USAF or USN ever use the name?  I thought that they were all Bugsmashers, or was that later?  And certainly not official.

 

 

[cherisy]

Is it me, but am I the only one who cant see the photobucket photos?

[EwenS]

Nope. They were visible when this thread first opened on Friday but had disappeared by yesterday. That was on my PC. Since then I’ve been using the I-pad so don’ know if that makes a difference. I just put it down to the usual Photobucket restrictions finally catching up.

[HMS Tern]

13 hours ago, cherisy said:

Is it me, but am I the only one who cant see the photobucket photos?

I've updated the original post with links to same images on flickr instead of photobucket. Subsequent quotes etc may not reflect this. Same inks/images below.

 

21 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I can't find any reference to 712 Sq (or indeed its predecessor 771) among the Dominies.  I suspect that 782's Dominies and Expediters were very common visitors (visiters?) to Hatston so may have been confused as residents.

Yes, probably the answer. 

712 a typo for 782 or some such confusion perhaps.

Also, it would make sense that taking First Lord on a return trip TO Orkney would start from the south!

Either way, thanks for that.

 

 

[gingerbob]

That Barracuda shot reminds me of the usual series from various angles taken at the A&AEE whenever a new variant showed up.  No certainty, just a suggestion...

[Seahawk]

Not sure there were that many fields, especially small ones, around Boscombe Down even in the 1940s.

 

I still think it's a view looking north from St Merryn, with the Camel valley down in the dip behind the continuous hedge line to the left of the aircraft.

[Graham Boak]

It is reminiscent of the BD photos, but these would not feature aircraft with unit markings.   There are only a few ways to take a photo of an aircraft, and front 3/4 has to be the most popular.