FM Breguet ALIZE the Gallic Gannet - RFI posted

[Martian]

23 minutes ago, heloman1 said:

I was curious when i saw your build thread title. having built FM's H-21 some 15 years ago Iwas thinking things might have improved and you were going to have an 'easy ' build, it would seem not. Love the way you are tackling the beast.

 

Colin

Clearly you were suckered in by the same kit as I was. I don't think my diodes have ever been the same since I built it.

 

Traumatised of Mars

[71chally]

7 hours ago, CJP said:

Thanks for that information 71chally - I have been Googling furiously but no clear views found yet

CJP

I'm probably going to sound a bit of a prat now but just in case, your first link (http://aviapassionmaquette.free.fr/Aviapassion Maquette photoscope alize.html ) in your first post contains good images of the early pod nose layout.

Also some nice close ups in this link, http://envelopmer.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/rochefort-aero-breguet-alize-ban.html

Note the tail also had a similar translucent cover originally.

[CJP]

36 minutes ago, 71chally said:

I'm probably going to sound a bit of a prat now but just in case, your first link (http://aviapassionmaquette.free.fr/Aviapassion Maquette photoscope alize.html ) in your first post contains good images of the early pod nose layout.

Also some nice close ups in this link, http://envelopmer.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/rochefort-aero-breguet-alize-ban.html

Note the tail also had a similar translucent cover originally.

Not at all 71chally - you've just found me the photo I wanted showing the structure under the Perspex cover which appears to be the same on each side! - the original photo on the second link you provided is really clear unlike the copy I did of it below - many thanks

CJP

[CJP]

6 hours ago, corsaircorp said:

Hello CJP,

I'll look in my files if I have some more pics !

sincerely.

CC

Nice photos CC - thanks

CJP

[71chally]

I've just been looking through the crew notes and trying to translate, behind each of the covers are two sensors called ARAR 11, and later ARAR 12 which are radar receivers, I assume they work in conjunction with the main search radar, they could also be used as part of the navigation system.

The stb'd pod has the addition of a another sensor which seems to be ILS or equivalent.

 

It's surprising just how many sensors the Alize' was equipped with.

[CJP]

22 minutes ago, 71chally said:

I've just been looking through the crew notes and trying to translate, behind each of the covers are two sensors called ARAR 11, and later ARAR 12 which are radar receivers, I assume they work in conjunction with the main search radar, they could also be used as part of the navigation system.

The stb'd pod has the addition of a another sensor which seems to be ILS or equivalent.

 

It's surprising just how many sensors the Alize' was equipped with.

 Hi 71chally  - I originally thought they were some sort of light but looking at the photo from your link I think you are spot on about the sensors - good result - must go and make my wife a cuppa now!

[CJP]

On ‎6‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 6:35 AM, 71chally said:

I've just been looking through the crew notes and trying to translate, behind each of the covers are two sensors called ARAR 11, and later ARAR 12 which are radar receivers, I assume they work in conjunction with the main search radar, they could also be used as part of the navigation system.

The stb'd pod has the addition of a another sensor which seems to be ILS or equivalent.

 

It's surprising just how many sensors the Alize' was equipped with.

HI 71chally - I bought an Alize flight manual online produced by a NZ company called Flight Manuals Online - basically in French although there is one file in English - is this the one your have? - seems to show drawings of the instrumentation in the cabin but no drawings of the actual pods and gear.

CJP

[71chally]

I have a Manuel De L'Equipage which shows all the equipment such as cockpit, radar, sensors, weapons etc plus dimensions weights and capacities, also deals with flight performance and ground handling and covers etc.  It is well illustrated.

I also have a Flight Handbook (equivalent to pilots notes) which is mainly in English with some French and I think is for the Indian Navy.  It is pretty indepth but doesn't cover the equipment so much, especially the radar.  Also illustrated, but not to the extent of the other manual.

 

The problem for me is that some of the French is easy to translate, but some doesn't directly translate at all!

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

I don't know about ARAR 11, but ARAR 12 is definitely a piece of ESM equipment (Electronic Support Measures - a typically bland NATO / American term for passive radar reception).  Orange Crop on the Seaking / Lynx (though not French Lynx), Orange Reaper & Harvest on more modern RN aircraft.  All designed to allow the aircraft to detect any transmission, but particularly (in the Alize case) a submarine that was foolish enough to transmit on radar (e.g for targeting missiles - bear in mind when the Alize came into service).

 

It may or may not be complete coincidence that the Shackleton ESM fit was called ARAR / ARAX.  

 

For modelling purposes, it's just an aerial, possibly with an unusual shape.

[CJP]

46 minutes ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

I don't know about ARAR 11, but ARAR 12 is definitely a piece of ESM equipment (Electronic Support Measures - a typically bland NATO / American term for passive radar reception).  Orange Crop on the Seaking / Lynx (though not French Lynx), Orange Reaper & Harvest on more modern RN aircraft.  All designed to allow the aircraft to detect any transmission, but particularly (in the Alize case) a submarine that was foolish enough to transmit on radar (e.g for targeting missiles - bear in mind when the Alize came into service).

 

It may or may not be complete coincidence that the Shackleton ESM fit was called ARAR / ARAX.  

 

For modelling purposes, it's just an aerial, possibly with an unusual shape.

Amazing EX-FAAWAFU - I had no idea about this stuff - you and 71chally have added another interesting dimension to my Alize build

CJP

[CJP]

1 hour ago, 71chally said:

I have a Manuel De L'Equipage which shows all the equipment such as cockpit, radar, sensors, weapons etc plus dimensions weights and capacities, also deals with flight performance and ground handling and covers etc.  It is well illustrated.

I also have a Flight Handbook (equivalent to pilots notes) which is mainly in English with some French and I think is for the Indian Navy.  It is pretty indepth but doesn't cover the equipment so much, especially the radar.  Also illustrated, but not to the extent of the other manual.

 

The problem for me is that some of the French is easy to translate, but some doesn't directly translate at all!

Sounds like mine might possibly be the second manual you mention - I don't speak/understand French so I had some interesting results when I first tried to translate the Master194.com Alize build to English - some translations were hilarious and some just bizarre so know what you mean

CJP

[71chally]

I haven't heard of ARAR/ARAX types systems being fitted to British fixed-wing ASW aircraft pre Nimrod, the only ESM fitted to Shacks was the more basic S and X band Orange Harvest, even then far more common on the AEW.  One AEW Gannet was fitted with this system but other than British designs seemed to have stayed away from the idea.

The nearest such thing that I can think of on a carrier based fixed-wing type was the wide band homer ESM on Buccaneers.

 

My understanding is that ARAR passively picks up the signals emitted from a vessels radar system to obtain a 'fix', where as the main DRAA-2 search radar was an active system which you might not always want to radiate.

Interesting with the Alize that it states that the ARAR can also be used for navigation, so I assume it picks up signals from TACAN or similar systems to obtain fixes.

The Alizes systems were essentially the same as its larger brother, the Atlantic, but the type numbers were different reflecting the smaller equipment.

 

 

Which era is your Alize being built in CJP?

Edited April 8, 2018 by 71chally

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

@71chally, you are completely right - bit of brain fade there on my part.  ARAR / ARAX was an early Nimrod fit, not Shackleton.  And yes, it’s completely passive.

 

The reported use for navigation doesn’t have to be anything complicated involving TACAN etc.  I routinely used Orange Crop as a navigation tool, especially when doing mid-ocean non-diversion flying (it concentrates the mind wonderfully when the available options are 1. find Mum before your fuel runs out and 2. ditch and face a court martial...).  You can route OC signals through your headphones, and the comforting high pitched slow “zeeeeenk” of Ark’s 1022 or the fast “zik-zik-zik” of Broadsword’s 967/968 was incredibly useful in keeping a mental grip on which direction to turn to get to your dry bunk.  It becomes second nature after a while; I remember when I first went fromt line being astonished at how easily my P1 knew the bearing of Mum after 3 hours of passive ASW 100 miles away... but within 6 months I could do it too.

 

Of course this only works in peacetime!  In times of war they turn everything off...

Edited April 8, 2018 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[CJP]

On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 7:27 PM, 71chally said:

I haven't heard of ARAR/ARAX types systems being fitted to British fixed-wing ASW aircraft pre Nimrod, the only ESM fitted to Shacks was the more basic S and X band Orange Harvest, even then far more common on the AEW.  One AEW Gannet was fitted with this system but other than British designs seemed to have stayed away from the idea.

The nearest such thing that I can think of on a carrier based fixed-wing type was the wide band homer ESM on Buccaneers.

 

My understanding is that ARAR passively picks up the signals emitted from a vessels radar system to obtain a 'fix', where as the main DRAA-2 search radar was an active system which you might not always want to radiate.

Interesting with the Alize that it states that the ARAR can also be used for navigation, so I assume it picks up signals from TACAN or similar systems to obtain fixes.

The Alizes systems were essentially the same as its larger brother, the Atlantic, but the type numbers were different reflecting the smaller equipment.

 

 

Which era is your Alize being built in CJP?

I sort of decided to do what I think is called the type A scheme as in the photo of Alize 51 on the first page of this build - I have looked at another older post where colours were discussed but I decided looking at some photos from that era that EDSG/Sky will be ok - I have a Berna decals sheet with number 17, 8, 65 & 52 in colour scheme A and 7 on the kit sheet - according to the decal sheet that puts the era about 1973 - 1982 I think so it will have clear covers at the front of the landing gear nacelles and at the tail - my understanding is that the clear covers were dispensed with in the ALM/ALH mods where the solid fronts were introduced - I noticed that the following photos show a yellow rectangular antenna on the cabin top - some aircraft have two blade antenna under the port wing and some a domed cover

 

Edited June 24, 2018 by CJP

[71chally]

Hope this helps, it shows the ARAR 11 sensor locations behind the translucent covers, two each on the pods, one each fuselage side, and two in the tail cone.

Breguet Br1050 Alize sensors (pre mod version) by James Thomas, on Flickr

 

The big roof aerial is known is part of the HF TRAP13 system, which I associated with the later ALM/ALH mods but that may not be correct. 

This is when the pods gained the ARAR 12 warts on a solid nose cone and that third sensor in the stb'd pod that I mentioned earlier which is a blade antenna.

Edited April 8, 2018 by 71chally

[71chally]

Thanks for the operational explanations Crisp, great to hear how this stuff actually worked in service.

 

This is a handy link for details of the older Alize set up, including a rare shot of a cockpit of that era,

http://fanalize.e-monsite.com/album-photos/mon-album/par-jean-luc-durand/

 

..and another earlier style cockpit shot, http://www.pyperpote.tonsite.biz/listinmaeu/images/stories/ListinMAE/appareils/breguet/alize10/cockpitalize01.jpg

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by 71chally

[CJP]

3 hours ago, 71chally said:

Thanks for the operational explanations Crisp, great to hear how this stuff actually worked in service.

 

This is a handy link for details of the older Alize set up, including a rare shot of a cockpit of that era,

http://fanalize.e-monsite.com/album-photos/mon-album/par-jean-luc-durand/

 

..and another earlier style cockpit shot, http://www.pyperpote.tonsite.biz/listinmaeu/images/stories/ListinMAE/appareils/breguet/alize10/cockpitalize01.jpg

 

 

Thanks 71chally they are very interesting links - I need to go through all of the sub links on the right hand side - I noticed one features a Gannet AEW3 visit to the Alize base in France - will have to pop the url into Google Translate and spend some time looking through the site - the cockpit photo is excellent and I think the kit resin parts give a pretty good representation of it - might try and add that circular tactical disc plotter on the right hand side as it is quite prominent.

The sensor drawing is also a great help and I had another look at my digital Alize manual I bought and I did find this diagram in it - I just had not gone far enough  into the manual to see it so thanks for that

 

CJP

[CJP]

12 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

@71chally, you are completely right - bit of brain fade there on my part.  ARAR / ARAX was an early Nimrod fit, not Shackleton.  And yes, it’s completely passive.

 

The reported use for navigation doesn’t have to be anything complicated involving TACAN etc.  I routinely used Orange Crop as a navigation tool, especially when doing mid-ocean non-diversion flying (it concentrates the mind wonderfully when the available options are 1. find Mum before your fuel runs out and 2. ditch and face a court martial...).  You can route OC signals through your headphones, and the comforting high pitched slow “zeeeeenk” of Ark’s 1022 or the fast “zik-zik-zik” of Broadsword’s 967/968 was incredibly useful in keeping a mental grip on which direction to turn to get to your dry bunk.  It becomes second nature after a while; I remember when I first went fromt line being astonished at how easily my P1 knew the bearing of Mum after 3 hours of passive ASW 100 miles away... but within 6 months I could do it too.

 

Of course this only works in peacetime!  In times of war they turn everything off...

@Ex-FAAWAFU, thanks for painting that picture of what it was like operating your Sea King from a carrier & the skills you all needed - quite daunting!

CJP

[71chally]

9 hours ago, CJP said:

I noticed one features a Gannet AEW3 visit to the Alize base in France - will have to pop the url into Google Translate and spend some time looking through the site

 

CJP

at Lann Bihoue' some really god Gannet pics in there, there was a return visit of Alizes to Culdrose which I (and perhaps Crisp?!) can remember mid 1990s.

 

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

43 minutes ago, 71chally said:

at Lann Bihoue' some really god Gannet pics in there, there was a return visit of Alizes to Culdrose which I (and perhaps Crisp?!) can remember mid 1990s.

 

I remember the Baggers [AEW Seakings] going to Lann Bihoue fairly often - it’s not that far from Culdrose, after all.  I never had the pleasure - though I did get to operate 2 HAS5s out of Bordeaux-Merignac for a couple of days on exercise.  Hosted by a Mirage IV squadron - who were not that keen for us to take photos, strangely! 

 

It it was the only time I was given a bottle of wine as part of my packed lunch... we avoided the temptation of drinking them (1 each) while airborne, but they certainly didn’t survive the evening.

 

I hadn’t built any models in 10 years at the time,& it would be another 15 before I did again - but I SO wish I’d taken a camera with me throughout my flying career.  (Maybe not the “Force de Frappe” Mirages, though - don’t fancy a French gaol)

[heloman1]

For those of you who may still remember, there wasa n Alize crashed at farnborought in the late '60's or maybe a tad later.. Mate of mine off the unit (MARTSU) was doing exhibition Team support and watched it all unlolding. said it looked like it ust slid sidways down the wing as it banked around. The joke in the bar that evening, was the call from the crew on the Alize, "Pierre to tower, we are about to crash"...

 

Liking the banter re radar and aireals... Yes to have had a camera throughout my FAA careeer too Crisp.

 

Colin

[71chally]

The crash at Farnborough, was a Breguet Atlantic which was making a slow low approach with a shut down port engine engine, crashed into the black sheds near the main gate, killing the crew and a worker on the ground, 1968.

[Terry1954]

Why is it I keep missing interesting nautical aircraft builds! Just found this one and will tag along. 

 

Very interesting and skilful work so far on what seems like a bit of a challenge!

 

Cheers

 

Terry

[heloman1]

22 hours ago, 71chally said:

The crash at Farnborough, was a Breguet Atlantic which was making a slow low approach with a shut down port engine engine, crashed into the black sheds near the main gate, killing the crew and a worker on the ground, 1968.

Hi Chally, you're quite correct I was taken back by the moment. I didn't hear about the crew.

 

Colin

[CJP]

I find this a bit of a drag - attacked the first round of putty with wet and dry  and then sprayed with Tamiya grey primer - then more putty and wet and dry and etc etc - laborious  but necessary

After I got sick of sanding last night I decided I would have a go at trying to improve the wheel hub detail - the kit hubs have spoke details and I wanted to try and replicate the hub with holes as in the picture below

 

first attempt was by filling the spokes with putty and drilling out the holes but the results were pretty ordinary and uneven so I thought of inserting  tube into the hub - firstly I stretched some plastic tube over a candle and managed through trial and error to get some that ended up about 1.5mm outside diameter- I very carefully drilled a short 1.5mm hole in between the spokes(don't go too deep or you will damage the hub detail on the inside) and cut pieces of the tube and inserted them into the hole secured with a drop of superglue - once dry the holes in the tube were drilled out with a 1mm drill

The nose wheel fork looks a bit short and the nose wheel fouls on the bottom of the strut so I will have to work out how to extend it - apart from this it is nicely cast though - I think the main gear strut needs the oleo to be more compressed to give the model the tail down sit of the Alize but not sure how I will go about that yet.

CJP

Edited April 13, 2018 by CJP
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