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Coutinho

Zvezda LA-5FN

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Hi everyone, my Zvezda 1/72 LA-5FN just arrived and I'm a little confused by how they represent one of the colour/decal schemes in the instructions.

 

The box art on the back shows the following extra paint schemes in addition to the green scheme on the box front cover.

 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQLVOt8mThQ94TKbCq5gdj

 

The 159th Squadron scheme of Captain Likholetov is what I'm interested in.

 

In the box art above, the scheme appears to have a sort of blue camo scheme to it.

 

However in the Zvezda instructions for the same scheme, it asks for Olive Drab and US Light Green!!!! Both of these colours had no hint of blue to them.

 

Clearly I am quite confused by this, because googling Likholetov's 1944 Summer Camo revealed the following:

 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSZX1CAizr8kenZec9VAmz

 

I can't really see any green to this scheme at all.

 

But further research showed this scheme too:

 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTOiRbN-qSG4lKhCWfxqHc

 

I don't really know what to believe anymore.

 

If anyone has some sort of instructions pointing out the colours required it would be greatly appreciated!

 

Thanks all

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From the beginning of 1944 fighters adopted a new upper surface colours of AMT-11 Grey Blue and AMT-12 Dark Grey. The undersides remained in AMT-7 Light Blue as they had been for some years previously. So you're right, no hint of green :)

 

All three colours are available in either acrylic or enamel. A quick Google will give you more links to paint suppliers than you ever knew you needed (including a great Britmodeler post)

 

Hope that gets you stated.

 

Andy 

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Thats why profiles are such a :worms: to deal with. Its really hard to know if they’re accurate. The best thing I can say is Research, Research, & more Research. If you find a profile try to find more than one source with the same profile. Also if you research when a unit operated a specific type of aircraft. It is a lot easier to figure out what camouflage the aircraft came with. As andy pointed out they directives changed in the beginning of 1944. Thanks @Foxbat for the information. 

 

Dennis

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Coutinho said:

If anyone has some sort of instructions pointing out the colours required it would be greatly appreciated!

 

 

see here

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/1943-45-fighters/1943-45.html

 

here's for colours

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/color-table.html

 

@Foxbat  sums up the basic colours you need,   the links should fill in the details.

 

and,  specifically about white 15

this  thread

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=1145.0

la5fn2.jpg

 

forgot I started that one!

 

Edited by Troy Smith

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

and,  specifically about white 15

this  thread

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=1145.0

la5fn2.jpg

 

forgot I started that one!

 

Interesting. Zvezda and those other profiles say Captain Likholetov and this thread shows Anatoliy Ruzin.

 

https://il2sturmovik.com/news/368/dev-blog-183/

 

This post here shows Ruzin's plane. Number 5 on the list.

 

The text is in white instead of yellow however!

 

It is basically the same appearance as Likholetov's supposed plane.

Edited by Coutinho

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16 minutes ago, Coutinho said:

and this thread shows Anatoliy Ruzin.

 

https://il2sturmovik.com/news/368/dev-blog-183/

 

the Sovietwarplanes thread  also says Ruzin

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?action=post;quote=7024;topic=1145.0;num_replies=3;sesc=a34851e844268fd0729c70ac407b3277

Quote

La-5FN "15" is attributed to лейтенант Anatoliy Ruzin.  "Vasko and Zhora" were former squadron commander Vasiliy Grechka and pilot Andrey Vasilyev.  Author of the text is K.A. Lavrinenko, wartime pilot of the 159 iap.
 

 

 

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Hello

Here is the link to a webpage with some information about Anatoliy Ruzin and two more of his photos. To add to confusion: I have seen colour profiles of Ruzin's plane with ˝Za Vasku i Zhoru˝ text in white, yellow, light gray and silver. Red star's inner border of the same aircraft has been shown as white, yellow or silver. Colour profile on the web page, linked to above, shows text in light blue and red stars with inner border in white. Any thoughts apart from ˝lies, damned lies, colour profiles˝ as one of our members once aptly put it? Cheers

Jure

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1 hour ago, Jure Miljevic said:

To add to confusion: I have seen colour profiles of Ruzin's plane with ˝Za Vasku i Zhoru˝ text in white, yellow, light gray and silver. Red star's inner border of the same aircraft has been shown as white, yellow or silver. Colour profile on the web page, linked to above, shows text in light blue and red stars with inner border in white. Any thoughts apart from ˝lies, damned lies, colour profiles˝ as one of our members once aptly put it?

Hi Jure

the linked sovietwarplanes thread

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?action=post;quote=7024;topic=1145.0;num_replies=3;sesc=a34851e844268fd0729c70ac407b3277

Quote

In 1944 official VVS marking was a red star with wide white and thin red outline, the same as post-war markings.

Large fuselage numbers were painted in factories and really represented plane number within the series (fighters were made in series of 100 planes).  In squadrons those numbers were sometimes kept, sometimes planes were renumbered.  As Massimo said, a photo of La-5 relic recently appeared on the web - fuselage number was white outlined in blue.

la5fn-wreck2.jpg

In Russian literature inscription "Za Vaska i Zhoru" is usually yellow - probably a guess based on photo interpretation.

la5fn2.jpg

 

 

regarding the blue outlined bort number

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/1943-45-fighters/1943-45.html

scroll to bottom

Quote

 

la5fn-wreck1.jpg

 
   
   

Two interesting images of a wreck of a La-5FN.

Above, the pieces wre made wet with water to show better their original colors; we recognize AMT-7, 11, 12 and the yellowish putty for wood.

Below, a detail of the bort number bears an interesting discovery: its outline was dark blue, and this was probably true for all late-style bort numbers on La5F, FN and La-7.

la5fn-wreck2.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

as for the ˝Za Vasku i Zhoru˝ text,  best guess.

it's a very similar tone to the white in the star and number,   but no outline,   so presumeably a contrasting enough colour,  yellow,  silver and pale blue (note similarity to underside) are all possible.

Silver was commonly used for markings,  yellow wasn't.

There was a web page about this, there are relics in Finalnd clearly showing use of silver for star outlines.

 

dinner calls

 

 

 

 

 

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Hello Troy Smith

Bon appétit. Thank you for your information. By remains in Finland I assume you mean a P-39 with silver red star outline? There used to be quite a number of photos of this plane still in her original, pre-restoration colours, on Finnish Air Force Museum's webpages. I tried to provide a link but, strangely, can no longer navigate to the webpage in question. Cheers

Jure

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56 minutes ago, Jure Miljevic said:

Hello Troy Smith

Bon appétit. Thank you for your information. By remains in Finland I assume you mean a P-39 with silver red star outline? There used to be quite a number of photos of this plane still in her original, pre-restoration colours, on Finnish Air Force Museum's webpages. I tried to provide a link but, strangely, can no longer navigate to the webpage in question. Cheers

Jure

Hi Jure

 

the P-39 for sure

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/photogallery/p-39_tikkakoski/index.htm

 

silver spinner, tail plane, bort number and some star outlines.

 

but there is also a fin and rudder off a  Yak-9 which has  silver outlined stars,  or perhaps my memory is playing up....

Quote


yak9tailtikkanoski.jpg

 

A Yak-9 tail in excellent condition is shown at Tikkakoski museum. A comparison with FS catalogue gives: darker grey FS 35042, lighter FS 36118. (cit. K. Lumppio) I suppose that these colors are taken around the star, where they look more fresh; other slightly different shades could be obtained from the underlying part. There is some green on the rudder, too.

 

 

 

see also

http://www.oocities.org/capecanaveral/4676/reference/russian.htm

 

@Kari Lumppio  is a member here, and wrote the article linked above.

 

cheers

T

 

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I think @Corsairfoxfouruncle was being quite conservative when he said this question was like opening a can of worms.

 

I seem to have opened another dimension. 

 

A lot of info here for a newbie like me. Time to get reading!

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1 hour ago, Coutinho said:

I seem to have opened another dimension. 

We all do it Coutinho. I opened my own :worms: Several months ago with an Royal Navy Phantom thread. So no worries and enjoy all the info that you recieve. 

 

Dennis

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Hello, Troy Smith

Yes, I meant that Airacobra, but not those photos. There were several other web pages within Finnish Air Force Museum website showing the same aircraft still in storage back in 1997 and later during partial restoration process. Apparently pages in question has been removed.

Regarding white inner outline of red stars or white colour of bort numbers it seems that it tended to deteriorate with time. Check this photo of Vitaliy Popkov here, standing beside scoreboard on his La-5 FN and apparently different colours of red star outline and bort number and on the other hand colours of two vertical stripes and outlines of small victory red stars. Colour of outline and bort number has been sometimes interpreted as yellow, but in most cases it is given as white. The same appears to be the case with Aleksandr Bilyukin's Airacobra here. Both Aleksandr Nevski name and bort number seem to be in colour darker than white, yet they are always interpreted (in my opinion, correctly) as being of that colour. Obviously silver had been used, especially by Red Banner Baltic Air Fleet, but it seems that in most cases individual examination of photos to determine most probable colour is needed. Well, half of us would drop model building as a hobby if everything would be simple and straightforward. Certainly I would. Cheers

Jure

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I've considered adding a signature to my posts, to the effect of "Aircraft are more complicated than we imagine."  Perhaps that should be "...more complicated than we can imagine."

 

I feel that part of the problem here is that genuine information, and the opportunity to address it, has only become available comparatively recently.  In the past 10 years or so the hobby has going through the kind of intense discussion on Russian colours (see also Japanese) that took 50 years over German ones - and German ones aren't completely settled yet.  No wonder that so much that has been published is contradictory.  But then, some profiles are still getting British schemes wrong, and some researchers are still finding corners of history where even RAF and FAA aircraft weren't painted and marked as long-standing information claims.

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