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Tweener

Martin B-10 Interior

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Have just obtained the lovely Williams Bros B-10 kit, and looking forward to using it as my first In Progress build log here on the Forums. That said, I want to do a fair bit of extra detailing for the interior. The kit provides a decent basis for the interior, but leaves the inside of the forward turret quite entirely empty. Does anyone have any nice references for the inside of the B-10? And does anyone know of any detail issues with the kit?

 

So far, I am assuming that the pictures on Military Factory of the B-10 at the National Museum of the United States Air Force are correct - But I question the combination of interior elements in both aluminum and green zinc chromate. It is my understanding that aircraft had one or the other, but that may not be true.

 

Many thanks for your time, Tweener.

Edited by Tweener
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Hello Tweener

Congratulations on choosing such an unusual type as B-10 for your first WIP blog. As for a nose turret I do not think there was much to see inside to begin with. A turret was not powered so a single .30 machine gun was installed into its frame using simple adapter. There are some photos of Martin 139 in Dutch East India service here and the front turret looks quite empty. The same could be said for turrets on photos of Argentinian Model 139WAN bombers here and for this US B-10 here. There must have been some room for extra ammo drums (perhaps strapped onto a side wall?), but this is about all I can imagine to be installed inside a turret. Not much, but I hope it helps. Cheers

Jure

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22 minutes ago, Jure Miljevic said:

Hello Tweener

Congratulations on choosing such an unusual type as B-10 for your first WIP blog. As for a nose turret I do not think there was much to see inside to begin with. A turret was not powered so a single .30 machine gun was installed into its frame using simple adapter. There are some photos of Martin 139 in Dutch East India service here and the front turret looks quite empty. The same could be said for turrets on photos of Argentinian Model 139WAN bombers here and for this US B-10 here. There must have been some room for extra ammo drums (perhaps strapped onto a side wall?), but this is about all I can imagine to be installed inside a turret. Not much, but I hope it helps. Cheers

Jure

Thank you - I very much look forward to making and sharing some more unusual types, be it aircraft in general or schemes that they wore. That said, the B-10 was certainly a bit of an impulse buy, and it's an aircraft I know remarkably little about. 

Many thanks for the links, especially the one to the Argentinian 139WAN page. While I am not yet sure how I intend to paint this one, my top 4 choices (of the whopping 17!) are 17th Pursuit Squadron, 31st Bombardment Squadron, Argentinian, or Thai Air Force with Elephant 'roundels'. That link may have just convinced me to go Argentinian.

 

God knows I will at the very least have to get another 2 or 3 of them put away while they are still available, but as the story goes, if I do, some Czech firm will up an decide to start cracking out a new kit of one. Time will tell.

 

Thanks again, Tweener

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Hello @Tweener ... If you contact the museum of the US Air Force. They usually help with information. There website has 360* photo’s from the insides of aircraft (usually cockpits) as well. Might be worth a look see if the B-10 is one of them ? 

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/

 

Dennis

Edited by Corsairfoxfouruncle

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Hello, Tweener

Four B-10s sounds quite ambitious, although this often overlooked type deserves more attention, both from aviation historians and model builders. Well, Douglas B-18 Bolo had the same type of front turret. Unfortunately good photos of this turret are just as scarce as those of B-10's. One can be found here. Again, not much can be seen below the mounting rim but at least machine gun and turret frame details show through transparencies. Cheers

Jure

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9 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Hello @Tweener ... If you contact the museum of the US Air Force. They usually help with information. There website has 360* photo’s from the insides of aircraft (usually cockpits) as well. Might be worth a look see if the B-10 is one of them ? 

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/

 

Dennis

IIRC, she was restored for the AFM by a reserve unit here at Kelly AB many years ago; wish I had known that, as I could have taken multitudes of detail photos- argh! (Of course, at that time I had neither an interest in the B-10 or a Williams Bros. kit- now I have both, but no photos.) The Dutch examples with the larger engines are really pugnacious-looking beasts! Check out the link below.

Mike

 

https://thejavagoldblog.wordpress.com/background-info-book-1/airplanes-2/glenn-martin-b10-bombers-in-dutch-service/

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Cool looking aircraft.

 

There are som photos of the interior here.

 

http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=27664

 

There’s a good one of the area behind the front turret in this thread

 

https://thejavagoldblog.wordpress.com/background-info-book-1/airplanes-2/glenn-martin-b10-bombers-in-dutch-service/

 

and I’m not sure how true to life this drawing will be (top left)!

 

http://browningmgs.com/AirGunnery/03_nose.htm

 

Trevor

 

 

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Dana Bell, @Dana Bell, is the most likely guy to ask about the B-10's interior. He has researched the USAAC/USAAF/USAF/USN/USMC colors(inside and out) for a long time. It is unlikely that zinc chromate green would have been used in the B-10; but, I could be wrong. It wasn't specified until about the time of the US entry into WW2. It is possible that zinc chromate yellow was used in the interior for some or all of it; but, aluminum is the most likely color. Again, if anyone knows, or, could point to the information; it is he. A bit of trivia, IIRC, the B-10 was the first USAAC aircraft with gun turrets as opposed to the open gun positions. Now that I am on this thread; a new tool B-10(Special Hobby, MPM, Airfix) would be welcome. It was important for its innovations(turrets, etc.); if not for any war-time use.

HTH

Joe

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Hello, Patoruzu

If I understood a short description in Martin 139 booklet published by Aeronaval correctly (unfortunately, my Spanish is hardly anything better than guessing), it was a ground training airframe which eventually ended in the US Force Museum as Martin B-10? Cheers

Jure

 

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On 3/13/2018 at 3:58 PM, JPuente54 said:

Dana Bell, @Dana Bell, is the most likely guy to ask about the B-10's interior. He has researched the USAAC/USAAF/USAF/USN/USMC colors(inside and out) for a long time. It is unlikely that zinc chromate green would have been used in the B-10; but, I could be wrong. It wasn't specified until about the time of the US entry into WW2. It is possible that zinc chromate yellow was used in the interior for some or all of it; but, aluminum is the most likely color. Again, if anyone knows, or, could point to the information; it is he. A bit of trivia, IIRC, the B-10 was the first USAAC aircraft with gun turrets as opposed to the open gun positions. Now that I am on this thread; a new tool B-10(Special Hobby, MPM, Airfix) would be welcome. It was important for its innovations(turrets, etc.); if not for any war-time use.

HTH

Joe

I also got the feeling that aluminum would be correct, but photos of the one at the National Air Force Museum show that the interior of their restored B10 is finished at least in part with Green Zinc Chromate. 

 

On the topic of Dana, I've been using Dana's book on USAAC colors 1926 - 1942 a lot recently. Sadly this book doesn't feature too many shots of the B-10. If I were building a Bolo, I'd be quite in luck, but that's another project and another day.

 

Thank you, Tweener

 

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There was an issue of either Wings or Airpower magazine on the restoration of the B-10 donated to the AFM by Argentina. I seem to recall some color and b&w photos of the interior. I'm pretty sure I have that issue- I will hoist myself up to the archives branch of my library and see if I can find it- at the least, I can describe what's there and in which  volume/issue the article was contained. Not being in Dana Bell's class, or even zip code, I would venture a guess that aluminum would be the interior finish, with maybe bronze green in some spots.

Mike

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I agree with the Aluminum interior of the turret. I would think the interior green is a product of the restoration not original. Its probably a protective coating for something that was corroded. 

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13 hours ago, 72modeler said:

There was an issue of either Wings or Airpower magazine on the restoration of the B-10 donated to the AFM by Argentina. I seem to recall some color and b&w photos of the interior. I'm pretty sure I have that issue- I will hoist myself up to the archives branch of my library and see if I can find it- at the least, I can describe what's there and in which  volume/issue the article was contained. Not being in Dana Bell's class, or even zip code, I would venture a guess that aluminum would be the interior finish, with maybe bronze green in some spots.

Mike

 

I believe that issue was back in the 80's some time. I too have that one in the mag stash, on the right side bottom shelf. That's where I keep my Wings/Airpower stack.

 

 

Chris

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I found two print reference magazines for the B-10. Neither one will help much as far as interior details or colors, but the best one is Air Power, volume 6 number 6, dated November, 1976. It has exterior and a few interior photos of the B-10B restored at Kelly AB. The color exterior photos are too dark to use, but there are plenty of color references available. In the article, it was mentioned that the Air Force Museum supplied the maintenance manual, pilot's manual, and structural manual for the B-10 to the restoration crew, so Tweener might try contacting them to see about the possibility of obtaining copies of interior photos or diagrams. I know many, many years ago, I was able to get the manuals for the F-51H on loan from them for a project, but I don't think they send references out in the mail anymore- for obvious reasons.. I think Dave Menard might have trusted me due to my IPMS affiliation. The other print magazine  was Wings, volume 17, number 1, but it only had a few exterior b&w photos. I seem to recall another softback book on Martin Aircraft 1909-1960 by John Breihan, which I think you can find on that well-known bookseller website. Best I can do, I'm afraid.

 

I bet noted aviation author William Wolf probably has everything there is in print on the B-10 in his library, but so far he hasn't done a book on it, sad to say.

Mike

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IIRC, one of the very early Air Classics (1966 ?) has a B-10 article which gives the complete painting schedule for the aircraft. Interior was Aluminum lacquer over red iron oxide primer. (Zinc chromate was introduced around 1935 and only became widespread in late 30s.)  As the export aircraft were delivered much later, it's possible that they used zinc chromate.

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On 3/15/2018 at 2:02 PM, Roger Holden said:

IIRC, one of the very early Air Classics (1966 ?) has a B-10 article which gives the complete painting schedule for the aircraft. Interior was Aluminum lacquer over red iron oxide primer. (Zinc chromate was introduced around 1935 and only became widespread in late 30s.)  As the export aircraft were delivered much later, it's possible that they used zinc chromate.

This seems to be confirmed by a few things I have read lately. Once I decide whether my build will be either a 17th Pursuit Squadron Hack (Interior Aluminum) or Chinese Air Force Bomber (Interior Green Chromate), I'll make a decision.

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The 'B-10' designation actually covered a family of aircraft with slight, or not so slight, variations.  The export Martins all had engine cowlings, and nacelles behind the cowlings, of different configuration.  The 'long canopy' versions with the Dutch ML-KNIL had a recontoured forward fuselage and completely redesigned wings (from above, the planform looks more like a DC-3 than a B-10.

 

 

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On 3/20/2018 at 3:54 PM, jimmaas said:

The 'B-10' designation actually covered a family of aircraft with slight, or not so slight, variations.  The export Martins all had engine cowlings, and nacelles behind the cowlings, of different configuration.  The 'long canopy' versions with the Dutch ML-KNIL had a recontoured forward fuselage and completely redesigned wings (from above, the planform looks more like a DC-3 than a B-10.

 

 

Yes, anything from B-10 and B-10B to B-12 and more. Export models were all slightly different than one another. This is another reason why my first build will be an American Example. I've made some progress so far, interior is built up but not yet painted. I'm aiming to finish a Hawk III before I make much more progress on this one.

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For the kit, when I built mine more than a few decades ago, the only problem I recall having was getting the clear nose part to fit.

The AFM does have a virtual tour of the cockpit of the B-10:

 

http://www.nmusafvirtualtour.com/full/z-013.html

Edited by Don McIntyre
correction

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29 minutes ago, Don McIntyre said:

For the kit, when I built mine more than a few decades ago, the only problem I recall having was getting the clear nose part to fit.

The AFM does have a virtual tour of the cockpit of the B-1:

 

http://www.nmusafvirtualtour.com/full/z-013.html

So far it is going together well- cockpit areas are almost done and ready to be placed between the halves. If the weather ever decides to clear up, I'll try to get a few shots up, along with the Chinese Gloster Gladiator and Hawk III I've almost finished.

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38 minutes ago, Tweener said:

So far it is going together well- cockpit areas are almost done and ready to be placed between the halves. If the weather ever decides to clear up, I'll try to get a few shots up, along with the Chinese Gloster Gladiator and Hawk III I've almost finished.

Yesss! Which Hawk III kit?

Mike

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20 hours ago, 72modeler said:

Yesss! Which Hawk III kit?

Mike

I made the mistake of buying the old Merlin Models incredibly short-run kit, but I've had a blast getting it together. Took a lot of filling,  a scratch built interior, aftermarket engine and cowling, and a lot of super glue, but it's almost done. The plan is to use it for a crash diorama, with the top wing collapsed and laying on top of the fuselage, and a japanese flag draped over the cockpit opening to hide it's relative emptiness.

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2 minutes ago, Tweener said:

I made the mistake of buying the old Merlin Models incredibly short-run kit, but I've had a blast getting it together. Took a lot of filling,  a scratch built interior, aftermarket engine and cowling, and a lot of super glue, but it's almost done. The plan is to use it for a crash diorama, with the top wing collapsed and laying on top of the fuselage, and a japanese flag draped over the cockpit opening to hide it's relative emptiness.

You, sir, are a steely-eyed styrene warrior!

Mike

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On 3/28/2018 at 2:48 PM, 72modeler said:

You, sir, are a steely-eyed styrene warrior!

Mike

High praise- too high if I may be honest. Perhaps the result will have to be the judge?

Decals are going down tomorrow and diorama being mapped out. Updates to follow if I can manage a decent photo.

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