K5Y Willow - help with video info

[JackG]

Interested in the float version, so am wondering what year some of these aircraft are being shown to determine their overall finish.  As I understand from Nick's blog, trainer yellow orange was introduced very late 1938, so up until that date, they were finished overall aluminum?  Does the white around the Hinomaru give some idea of timeline?

 

In particular am wondering about the aircraft numbered 624 and 439.

 

Thanks for any help.

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

[MDriskill]

I may be misunderstanding the question, but I’ve never seen a silver-painted iJNAF aircraft with white surrounds to the hinomarus. Their presence shows the aircraft are orange.

[Junchan]

The first half of the film was a part of news reel No. 157 of Japan News released in June 1943 and the last half was a part of No. 204 released in April 1944. Therefore all the K5Ys in news reels were painted usual orange yellow.

Here are the link to the original NHK archives of Japan News.

https://www2.nhk.or.jp/archives/shogenarchives/jpnews/movie.cgi?das_id=D0001300543_00000&seg_number=003

http://www2.nhk.or.jp/archives/shogenarchives/jpnews/movie.cgi?das_id=D0001300332_00000&seg_number=003

 

Jun in Tokyo

https://www.flickr.com/photos/horaburo/albums

Edited March 11, 2018 by Junchan

[JackG]

Excellent, thanks both MDriskill and Junchan.

 

regards,

Jack

[Roger Holden]

If you are thinking of making a 1/72 version, note that both the kits produced (1970s LS and its later 'knock-off' from Valom) both contain an awful error in the fuselage. In plan view, their fuselages have a straight taper from immediately behind the engine to the stern post. In reality, the fuselage is much slimmer over most of its length and only flares out in width in the section just behind the engine. So the kit fuselages are much too 'fat'. This is

most apparent in the cockpit openings which just sit on top of the fuselage, rather than wrapping around it. I see no alternative but making a completely new fuselage. I had hoped that Valom would have got it right, but sadly their kit appears to be based on LS components.

[JackG]

Roger, thank you for the heads up on those kits. 

 

What is the opinion on the AZ Model offering?  Found one on sale, though is the land/wheel version, but plan to make the floats as it looks all three releases from this company contain all identical sprues.

 

regards,

Jack

[MDriskill]

I could stand to be corrected as don’t have the AZ kit, but I believe I remember reading it is also derived from the same basic molds, and does not address the main accuracy issues.

[Roger Holden]

I don't have it, but understand the AZ kit is the Valom one re-boxed. A proportion of AZ's releases are other moulds re-issued with new decals. There are nice drawings in the Arawasi and FAOW books, which the kits don't bear a close comparison to. if you want an accurate model, be prepared for a long haul. Or do it in 1/48, where I think there was a quite good old Nichimo (?) kit.

[JackG]

Unfortunately, Scalemates did not pick up on the fact AZ are exact sprues from Valom - was wondering why searches had no review on the AZ boxing.   Maybe they kept quiet to avoid sale loss on AZ's behalf?   Had I known, would of passed on the kit.  Here I was thinking of ordering the Arawasi book to further sort out marking options, but thought it pricey with plans to build just one kit.  Now it's a requirement to build an accurate physical model, ughhh.

 

----------------------------

 

Valom with blue background and AZ directly below.

 

 

 

regards,

 

Jack

[Roger Holden]

You may be able to find the FAOW (Famous Airplanes of the World series (No. 44) by Bunrin-Do) volume cheaper than the Arawasi. It contains many more photos and colour profiles and the most detailed plans, but the text is all-Japanese.  The Arawasi booklet maybe contains more useful info for detailing a model and is in English. Both are very good, imo. 

[Junchan]

I have posted some diagrams from the original handling manual in my Frickr Photo Album. Those will help you when detailing up your model.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/horaburo/albums/72157633971637160

 

Jun in Tokyo

Edited March 13, 2018 by Junchan

[JackG]

16 hours ago, Roger Holden said:

You may be able to find the FAOW (Famous Airplanes of the World series (No. 44) by Bunrin-Do) volume cheaper than the Arawasi. It contains many more photos and colour profiles and the most detailed plans, but the text is all-Japanese.  The Arawasi booklet maybe contains more useful info for detailing a model and is in English. Both are very good, imo. 

Is no.44 the correct volume number, my google gives me a book with the Suisei Bomber:

 

 

nvm, here's another '44' and looks to be the one:

 

regards,

Jack

Edited March 13, 2018 by JackG

[JWM]

I have an article on Willow in some French aviation Journal. PM if you need some drawings, details etc...

BTW - interesting that AZ and Valome are same plastic. They appeared in the sime time, I was thinking which one to buy, but when I've jumped on AZ in a modeller shop I'bought it without a big debate. So now  I have AZ and old ARI/LS intending to do one on wheels another on floats.

Regards

J-W

 

[JackG]

Thank you J-W, will keep your offer in mind.

 

Was just thinking, if the fuselage has to be narrowed, then the lower wing will need to be added to to make up the difference, and likely affect the fit of the cabane struts as well.

 

regards,

Jack

[Roger Holden]

Yes, it's the FAOW with the black cover, which is from the 1990s. They are better than the blue cover series from the 1970s.

 

I dug out my Valom kit and the problem with the fuselage is that it in plan view it should have parallel sides from a point aft of the rear cockpit all the way to the back of the engine. In the kit, the taper of the rear fuselage keeps on going to the metal panels just behind the engine and then curves inwards, giving the fuselage a 'teardrop' shape in plan view. The plastic may be thick enough to slim it down, but you will lose the stringer details. Another way might be to make a 'v' shape cut out in the top and bottom of the fuselage at the rear of the cockpits section and bend the sides inwards , removing material from the top and bottom joint and enlarging the cockpits. But you would still need to make the metal panels section behind the engine. Then again, you might decide it's not worth the effort...   I would attempt to fix it, but I'm a masochist...

[JackG]

Roger, sounds like you might be on to something as a plan of attack.  Not an aircraft I'm familiar with, so can't say what must be done and the how to.   The only thing I might of built close to it is a resin 1/72 Spruce trainer.

 

regards,

Jack

[JackG]

My AZ kit arrived Friday, so after studying the fuselage and some online line drawings to compare, I can better grasp the errors Roger has pointed out:

 

 

I've divided the top view into three sections. 

The first section is the engine cowl and essentially looks okay.  It will likely need some adjustment to streamline it's fit to fuselage fixes.

The second section is what I see needs the most work.  Basically need to eliminate the bulge that leads up to the cowl.

Third section is an easier fix as the slight curve of the sides needs to be straightened out.  I think another approach to this would be to sand down the mating surfaces of the fuselage halves, grinding down into a concave shape to create a small gap - this then would be force squeezed together and hope it straightens out the curve.

 

I have not  checked too much the side view, but it appears the tops should be more straight then the current curve they have been given.  Will know better once the Arawasi  publication arrives.  Went ahead and ordered it as I was given a cheaper postage option, cost of 5.00 USD via SAL delivery.  That lessens the burden on the wallet somewhat.

 

On another note, the stitching looks altogether wrong.  Not the correct pattern, nor should it be engraved but rather raised detail.  An Eduard PE might come in handy here.

 

regards,

Jack

[Graham Boak]

I think you are understating the problem, because (as said early in the thread, the cockpit enclosures appear down the sides of the fuselage not sitting on the top of it.  It looks as though it needs to be narrowed much more severely, with no increase in width at all in the nose aft of the engine.  I think you can see some of this in the drawings Junchan provided.  But as you say, hopefully all will be much clearer to you when the  FAOW arrives.

 

I have a floatplane version in the stash, so I'm, looking forward to seeing your conclusions.

 

EDIT

Looking at Junchan's plans, the fuselage is 0.92m wide, which is 12.8mm in 1/72 scale.

I measure the kit fuselage, at its widest, to be 16.2mm.  That's a lot to sand, more than the thickness of the moulding. 

The section appears to be much less round, more of a rectangle taller than it is wide.

 

Edited March 18, 2018 by Graham Boak

[JackG]

Thank you Graham, and thanks again to Junchan and his diagram links posted to Flickr.

 

Taking that measurement of 12.8mm means the proper width  on the model is already arrived at before the rear cockpit opening (looking at it in the direction from the tail towards the front).  Diagrams also show a much more visible cockpit opening when viewed from side profile.  Definitely not a quick fix on this one.

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

[Roger Holden]

Jack,

 

Now you have posted that plan view photo and Graham has taken some measurements , it gives a clearer idea of what is involved. Personally, I think I would cut out the fuselage sides over region 2 (chain-drill lots of holes and connect them), leaving large, rectangular 'holes' in the area. Then I would make some rectangular insert pieces from thick plasticard (40 or 60 thou ?), which can be shaped on the outside to give the shallow cross-sectional curvature after installation. I would flatten the rear fuselage by filing on the outside. The upper fuselage around the cockpits will probably also need to be re-shaped to give more of a curvature, such that the cockpit openings are more apparent from the sides. When all that is complete, you can reinstate the stringer detail on the fuselage sides by gluing on stretched sprue lengths and blending them in with some coats of Mr.Surfacer and gentle sanding.

 

Whatever, it will be quite a long haul, but one which will extend your aeromodelling abilities if you're not used to this kind of thing...  Sounds like you may be up for the challenge....

[Graham Boak]

The rule to follow is measure three times, cut once.  Don't rely on my measurements  alone.

 

I must admit I was thinking of thinner plasticard, scored on the inside to get the stringer effect (which would probably induce some curvature).  However, most of the width is at shoulder height, so that probably could be best arranged by filing a thicker piece.  A thinner piece would also require some bulkheads.

[occa]

Again kit makers take the too easy way when they re-do older kits.

I'd wish they'd do some research

 

 

[JackG]

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

The rule to follow is measure three times, cut once.  Don't rely on my measurements  alone.

 

I must admit I was thinking of thinner plasticard, scored on the inside to get the stringer effect (which would probably induce some curvature).  However, most of the width is at shoulder height, so that probably could be best arranged by filing a thicker piece.  A thinner piece would also require some bulkheads.

 

Graham yes, I'll be checking things again once I have the book in my hands.  Likely print out what I need in 1/72 to physically compare things.

 

More than one way to skin a cat, though one method might involve more work than another.

 

regards,

Jack

[JWM]

Gents, your discussion made me interesting in Willow. I have found this article with drawings - it is in Avions magazine. With my two Willows in stash (old LS and AZ) there is a nice field for half-scratch build, Iam sure I will  like it!

Regards

J-W

 

[phat trev]

Hope no one minds me opening this post- I am starting a 1/72 LS Type 93 and starting look into schemes. I want a wheeled (land) version rather than a floatplane, although the it is a float version in the box.  Interested in any civil versions of this aircraft or even if another type could be made using this LS kit as a base and some scratch building.