RAF Mitchell FR209 post-war markings

[Hamsterman]

Hi all,

Got a quick question for any of you that might be familiar with RAF training squadrons.  I believe the attached picture of FR209 is post-WW2 but I could be wrong.  I'm trying to figure out the markings on the nose.  I believe the crest is that of the Empire Central Flying School but I can't figure out the four horizontal lines.  Do any of you have any idea what these lines mean?  The photo is from the Crowood North American B-25 Mitchell books by Jerry Scutts.

Cheers!

Chris

 

[72modeler]

16 minutes ago, Hamsterman said:

Hi all,

Got a quick question for any of you that might be familiar with RAF training squadrons.  I believe the attached picture of FR209 is post-WW2 but I could be wrong.  I'm trying to figure out the markings on the nose.  I believe the crest is that of the Empire Central Flying School but I can't figure out the four horizontal lines.  Do any of you have any idea what these lines mean?  The photo is from the Crowood North American B-25 Mitchell books by Jerry Scutts.

Cheers!

Chris

 

I have no clue as to the markings on the nose, but I found a photo of the same Mitchell dated 1950. Best I could come up with- sorry!

Mike

 

http://www.aviationphotocompany.com/p1004526858/h544C3C3C#h544c3c3c

[Phil Evans]

Do you think that the nose marking may be a rank pennant?

 

Phil

[71chally]

7 hours ago, Hamsterman said:

I believe the crest is that of the Empire Central Flying School but I can't figure out the four horizontal lines.

FR209 did serve with the ECFS (aswel as the A&AEE) so you are likely corect there, it is indeed post-war and this Mitchell wasn't struck off until Autumn 1951.

It along with FR208 were the only 'big gun' B-25Gs delivered to the RAF, obviously it had gained a bomber nose at some point.

[Aeronut]

41 minutes ago, Phil Evans said:

Do you think that the nose marking may be a rank pennant?

If it is its an Air Chief Marshall

[Phil Evans]

Hi Aeronut,

 

That's what made me sceptical of the idea about a rank pennant. I just found a picture on Flickr that shows a bit of a difference in the shades of the stripes but I can't post the link. Search for "RAF Hullavington Mitchell 1"

 

There was also a thread on BM about RAF aircraft in Malta which described it as assigned to the Navigation school. Maybe it was used like a VB-25?

[Nigel Bunker]

Looking at the second picture here , has it acquired a radome or aerial cover on the underside just behind the cockpit?

[71chally]

The lovely Flickr pictures are here, copyright Roger Lupton Flickr

 

 

I wonder if the ranks (and stripes) changed?

I always wondered if this Mitchell survived for so long and in such god nick because of someone high up looking out for it.

 

 

Nigel, could the radome belong to the Lancaster behind?

 

Edited March 8, 2018 by 71chally

[Paul J]

I'm inclined to agree the radome belonging to the Lanc. Interesting to note the D type roundels and fin flash, small astrodome behind the cockpit. Doubt it replaced a turret as the airframe is of an earlier B-25 when the turret was much further aft.

[Nigel Bunker]

1 hour ago, 71chally said:

Nigel, could the radome belong to the Lancaster behind?

On review, yes it could.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

1 hour ago, Paul J said:

small astrodome behind the cockpit. Doubt it replaced a turret as the airframe is of an earlier B-25 when the turret was much further aft.

I believe that was the stock Navigators Astrodome ? 

[Graham Boak]

Sir Harry Broadhurst has a record of personal aircraft but although reaching the rank of ACM he was only an AVM in 1950.

[David Womby]

This thread has been an eye-opener.  Another US type that I didn't know carried on service in RAF post WW2 (I knew about the Hudson and the RN Baltimores, etc).

 

Now I need to add one to the stash for a future build:  which 1/72 kit would be easiest to make in this config?  Do any have the option of omitting the tail gunners canopy and fairing?

 

David

[Graham Boak]

The tail gunner's position was only on the later aircraft, such as the B-25H and J.  You could start with the new Airfix kit of a B-25D. but this aircraft has the later engine cowling with individual exhausts and I don't know whether the Airfix kit comes with these.  (Edit Yes it does.)  Also, this aircraft appears to lack the side gun windows.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Graham Boak

[Hamsterman]

I was able to check in with Roger Lupton via Flickr and he has confirmed that the crest is that of the Empire Central Flying School.  He didn't know anything about the horizontal marking in front of the crest.  If I were to guess at the colors of the horizontal lines in the top photo I posted, I would speculate the outer two are blue and the inner two are red.  Of course this is all based on what I'm seeing in the Roger Lupton photos.  Thing is, in his photos, it looks like there are two outer blue lines and a solid red field in between.  Maybe it changed over time.  Thanks for all the thoughts!

Cheers! 

[72modeler]

9 hours ago, David Womby said:

This thread has been an eye-opener.  Another US type that I didn't know carried on service in RAF post WW2 (I knew about the Hudson and the RN Baltimores, etc).

 

Now I need to add one to the stash for a future build:  which 1/72 kit would be easiest to make in this config?  Do any have the option of omitting the tail gunners canopy and fairing?

 

David

As Graham has said, I'm pretty sure you can use the new Airfix kit, as the Mitchell in the photo, FR209, was one of the two 75mm cannon-armed B-25G's supplied to the RAF for evaluation; FR209 went to the Empire Central Flying School, and the other, FR208,  went to the Air Fighting Development Unit, according to the William Wolf B-25 Mitchell- The Ultimate Look book.. At some point in time, FR209 was fitted with the standard bomber nose, and since the B-25G was based on the C/D, you can use the Airfix kit, less the dorsal and ventral turrets. There was no tail turret installation as fitted to later production airplanes or done later in the field or modification center. Sure would make a pretty model, with all that shiny aluminum! Neat to see the polished/unpainted props, too, but I am betting the back surfaces were matt black for antiglare. Be sure to use the correct canopy and bulged windows in the Airfix kit. Hope this helps a little.

Mike

 

New information: According to the production data in the book Deadly Duo- The B-25 and B-26, FR208 and -209 accepted by the RAF were B-25G-1-NA's; armament listed was the standard fit for that block number- no waist or tail gun positions were factory fitted. I am going to hazard a guess that it's not likely that either of these two Mitchells went to a modification center or were modified in the field, as they were being sent for evaluation, not to a combat unit, by the RAF. I think you're safe, Chris, doing -209 as seen in your photos without waist or tail gun positions, as I don't think they would have been of much use as a brass hat's personal transport!

Edited March 8, 2018 by 72modeler

[David Womby]

Thanks, gents.

 

David

[Hamsterman]

5 hours ago, Aeronut said:

If it is its an Air Chief Marshall

Did a little more looking based on some of the comments here and found this photo interesting because it's marked similarly to FR209.  The caption for this photo say, " When on 30th April 1954 the AOC 21 Group visited Luqa in Malta, he did so in one of No.2 ANS' Marathons. This photo shows XA272/H at Luqa with two stars on its nose and so likely shows this event. Note also the 2 ANS badge."  The 'he' in the caption refers to Air Vice Marshal GE Nicholetts.  The star plate for a Air Vice Marshal is two stars on a blue field.  If we extend this to FR209, I'm guessing the horizontal stripes are the insignia for the Air Chief Marshall.  I've included a picture of the command flag for the Air Chief Marshall on the bottom.  The colors of the Air Chief Marshall command flag would even make sense with the two set os photos.  Based on the popular types of b/w film used at the time, the dark blue should usually be rendered as a dark gray/black, the red would alternate being either a light gray or black and the light blue would usually be rendered a light gray.  In the second set of photos from Roger Lupton, the red and light blue are both rendered as light gray while in the photo found in the Scutts book, the red and dark blue are both rendered as black.

Cheers!

 

 

[Phil Evans]

On the Key Publishing Aviation Forum there is a photo of CFE with a Mitchell in the centre of the picture. One of the posts states that it was the personal transport of AVM Sir Roderick Hill

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

8 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

 

The tail gunner's position was only on the later aircraft, such as the B-25H and J. 

 

I beg to differ Graham. Some late D’s not only had Tail guns but used the waist guns from the H & J’s. I found a couple of picture of D’s with tail gun positions. 

7 hours ago, 72modeler said:

There was no tail turret installation as fitted to later production airplanes or done later in the field or modification center.

Hello Mike I think some were installed at the factory ? I believe as the photo’s show they also had the waist gunners positions factory installed. I could be wrong and this is only my opinion. 

A close up

⬇️ This is a B-25D “Little Joe” that crashed but both its clear. That its a “D” because of the rear placement of the upper turret. 

Please understand Im not trying to upset anyone. Im just pointing out an incorrect assumption. I also stress this is my personal belief and would gladly change that if im wrong. I believe that some of these were factory installed. Most were field installations. 

 

Dennis

Edited March 8, 2018 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[72modeler]

4 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

I beg to differ Graham. Some late D’s not only had Tail guns but used the waist guns from the H & J’s. I found a couple of picture of D’s with both gun positions. 

Hello Mike I think some were installed at the factory ? I believe as the photo’s show they also had the waist gunners positions factory installed. I could be wrong and this is only my opinion. 

A close up

⬇️ This is a B-25D “Little Joe” that crashed but both its clear. That its a “D” because of the rear placement of the upper turret. 

Please understand Im not trying to upset anyone. Im just pointing out an incorrect assumption. I also stress this is my personal belief and would gladly change that if im wrong. I believe that some of these were factory installed. Most were field installations. 

 

Dennis

Dennis,

 

What you have stated and illustrated is true for the B-25's you posted, but neither B-25G accepted by the RAF had the waist or tail turret fitted; I remember seeing a photo of one of the RAF B-25G's with the 75mm cannon fitted, but it did not have the extra gun positions. (I will see if I can find it.) According to the information in Wolf's B-25 book, many  late model C/D and G Mitchells were fitted with the extra gun positions after leaving the factory, but what I meant was that FR209, which is the  model Chris wants to do, did not have the waist or tail gun position fitted. Guess maybe we are both right? Keep me honest, my friend!

Mike

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

You are Correct mike I misunderstood your original post which I quoted. I was pointing out that “D’s” carried tail guns, as Graham had said none did. I know the conversation was about the RAF “G”. I was not commenting on the “G” itself but was addressing an assumption. In doing so I made the same assumption myself. Guilty as charged. 😟

 

Dennis

[72modeler]

31 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

You are Correct mike I misunderstood your original post which I quoted. I was pointing out that “D’s” carried tail guns, as Graham had said none did. I know the conversation was about the RAF “G”. I was not commenting on the “G” itself but was addressing an assumption. In doing so I made the same assumption myself. Guilty as charged. 😟

 

Dennis

Ha! See if I share my F2G-1/2 references, you scoundrel!

Mike

[Graham Boak]

I think I can weasel my way out of this by stressing my exact words.   I said that the tail turret was on later aircraft such as the H/J.  Later being later than the example in the photo, which was a G without tail turret.  Obviously a late production D with tail turret was later than this particular example.  The reference to the side guns was simply comparing the Airfix kit which has these positions to the example in the photo, which didn't.   A close-run thing perhaps, but I said nothing that specifically stated no D variants possessed tail guns or side guns.  I was well aware that the later Ds had side guns.  I also knew that some of them had tail gun positions, but I admit that in the latter case I was thinking of something cruder than those shown in the photos.  However, I believe that this differs from that on the H/J, being higher because of the shallower rear fuselage? 

 

Anyway, In modelling terms, this option is not available.  If you want to model this RAF G, then you start with a kit of a D and avoid ones of the J.  If you want to model one of these later Ds, then you have to take the gun positions from a J kit (or Falcon set?) and chop away.  And why not?

[Hamsterman]

Thanks for all your help and dang, you're all so polite!  Yes indeed, I had intended on using the new Airfix kit which should provide all the necessary pieces.  Million dollar follow up question....what did the RAF do to the interiors of their training B-25s?  Anyone know?  I know the USAF install a number of seats in their advanced flight trainers.  Not so sure about instrument trainers.  

 

Oh, and one small caution about using H/J model waist windows for a late model D.  IIRC, the contour at the top and bottom of the H/J window was slightly different than that on the Fairfax waist windows used in the late D models.  Doubt many people would notice, and not saying you shouldn't do it.  More just an FYI.

 

Cheers!