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F-4C/D - Europe1 scheme


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52 minutes ago, Richard E said:

I've always assumed that it's a strengthening plate.

The strip on the tank - right side only as you look from the front (are you listening Airfix!) - is, I assume a strengthening rib.

 

However, going back to the original question, having looked through C&M volume 3 F-4C - Post Vietnam markings 1974-84 I can't find any pictures of F-4C's in Euro 1 camoflage. SEA schemes with both light gray and camo undersides, ADC gray, some 2-tone (light) gray a/c flown by the Louisiana ANG 122nd TFS/159th TFG in a variety of schemes (one similar to an RAF distruptive scheme, another similar to the USN tactical camo scheme on F-4S's) and a Ferris scheme.

 

But no Euro 1.

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6 minutes ago, iainpeden said:

The strip on the tank - right side only as you look from the front (are you listening Airfix!) - is, I assume a strengthening rib.

 

However, going back to the original question, having looked through C&M volume 3 F-4C - Post Vietnam markings 1974-84 I can't find any pictures of F-4C's in Euro 1 camoflage. SEA schemes with both light gray and camo undersides, ADC gray, some 2-tone (light) gray a/c flown by the Louisiana ANG 122nd TFS/159th TFG in a variety of schemes (one similar to an RAF distruptive scheme, another similar to the USN tactical camo scheme on F-4S's) and a Ferris scheme.

 

But no Euro 1.

Iain

 

Thanks for the confirmation on the tank.

 

The only F-4C in a Euro 1 scheme that I have seen a picture of is 63-7407 which was operated by the US Air Force from Edwards Air Force Base; there are a couple of pictures of the aircraft in Robert F Dorr's book "Phantoms Forever" which are captioned as being taken on 3 May 1985 shortly after it had been repainted.  Perhaps @Old Viper Tester can add some mode background information?

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There were definitly more F-4C's in Euro 1. I already posted a couple in Post 2 (The California ANG one and Arkansas ANG ones). But here are a few more, starting with an Indiana ANG one

 

yUrFbV0.jpg

 

A Hawaii ANG one

bc9iU3B.jpg

 

And then there are these from Oregon, third one from the right and Texas. There's also a photo of a Louisiana one out there, but it's rather small.

 

21 hours ago, Smudge said:

Just a quick question on the Euro One scheme. It appears that the SEA tan colour was simply replaced with a grey? Although the pattern for the underside remains a bit of a mystery?

 

I have a nice decal sheet for Euro One Phantoms :)

Pretty much, yes. The basic pattern was the same for all, but there was a lot of variation between them. Here's a nice profile that shows the wraparound pattern.

Edited by Creepy Pete
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Thanks for the link to the Euro One profile, very handy. Although I take your point that there can be a lot of variation on individual aircraft.

 

Interesting how the aircraft look so much darker, just by substituting the tan for grey.

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4 hours ago, Richard E said:

I've always assumed that it's a strengthening plate.

The strip is where the tank joins I think.  I have access to a tank so will take some pictures tomorrow.

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4 hours ago, Richard E said:

I have seen a picture of is 63-7407 which was operated by the US Air Force from Edwards Air Force Base; there are a couple of pictures of the aircraft in Robert F Dorr's book "Phantoms Forever" which are captioned as being taken on 3 May 1985 shortly after it had been repainted.

'407 came to Edwards from the 3246th Test Wing at Eglin in early 1985 (Feb??). It was already in Euro 1 when it arrived at Edwards. You can see where the Armament Division tail code, AD, had been modified to the 6510th Test Wing tail code, ED, by painting over the A and replacing it with an E. There is still a shadow where the unit shields have been removed from the inlets as well.

63-7407 6512ts ED R-2508 19850503 26cr

 

63-7407 6512ts ED R-2508 19850503 08cr

 

I think any Phantom that went to Programmed Depot Maintenance after 1983 came off the Ogden Air Logistics Center line with a Euro 1 scheme unless the gaining unit specified otherwise. E.g., the prototype YF-4E, 65-0713, was always sent to Ogden with instructions that it be painted white and almost always with red conspicuity markings. Maybe Eglin didn't specify the returning camo scheme? '407 spent its entire life in a test role with Air Force Systems Command and had the original 'Navy scheme' of grey and white, and sometime later the overall ADC grey scheme. By 1988, '407 became another "Albino Rhino" in white and red as part of the Edwards test support fleet.

 

The underside for Smudge, complete with canopy reflections:

63-7407 6512ts ED R2508 19850503 16cr

 

'407 was referred to as "The Elder", being the first F-4C built for the USAF. It carried the name on the nose gear door in its albino scheme.

 

Cheers,

Sven

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On ‎3‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 3:57 AM, Christer A said:

... but what mark of Sparrows?

I'm guessing  E or M?

AIM-7E-2, the "L" marking on the aft portion of the forward wings identifies it.  The E-2 had clipped wings, making it more maneuverable at short ranges, so they added the "L" marking to avoid using incorrect wings on the wrong variant.

 

Regards,

Murph

Edited by Murph
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On ‎3‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 5:07 AM, iainpeden said:

However, going back to the original question, having looked through C&M volume 3 F-4C - Post Vietnam markings 1974-84 I can't find any pictures of F-4C's in Euro 1 camoflage. SEA schemes with both light gray and camo undersides, ADC gray, some 2-tone (light) gray a/c flown by the Louisiana ANG 122nd TFS/159th TFG in a variety of schemes (one similar to an RAF distruptive scheme, another similar to the USN tactical camo scheme on F-4S's) and a Ferris scheme.

 

But no Euro 1.

The first two Euro 1 pictures posted on page 1 of this thread (California and Arkansas jets) are C models.  The California jet is an F-4C-20-MC, while the Arkansas jet is an F-4C-15-MC.  LINK  While discussing Euro 1, some jets used Gray FS #36081, while others used Gray FS #36118.

 

Regards,

Murph

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@Julien Big thanks for the tank pictures!

Now I just need to ponder how to best represent that flange in 1/48, but that's modelling, right?

15 hours ago, Murph said:

AIM-7E-2, the "L" marking on the aft portion of the forward wings identifies it.  The E-2 had clipped wings, making it more maneuverable at short ranges, so they added the "L" marking to avoid using incorrect wings on the wrong variant.

 

Regards,

Murph

Thanks for the clarification Murph!

E-2 models in 1986 must've been quite long in the tooth by then? I guess there  must've been a large stock of those missiles and all F & M Sparrows went to the newer aircrafts ?

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On 3/6/2018 at 12:34 AM, Creepy Pete said:

ZTODkg5.jpg

Sorry for being off-topic:

Regarding the above photo, I thought only the early Navy Phantoms ( Prototype F4H-1 & F-4Bs) had the movable inner most slats (ie closest to the air intakes). I thought I read somewhere the later models had the inner most slat welded shut?  

 

I noticed from online pics of the Zouki Mura F-4C & F-4D both kits have positionable inner most slats.

Edited by Jackman
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Hi Jackman,

 

I'm doing this off the top of my head, so someone will probably come along soon and correct me. :D

 

The F-C/D always had the 3 leading edge flap panels (sorry to sound pedantic, but slats are a different animal from leading edge flaps. F-4 wings can be almost as complicated as Spitfire wings!). The F-4A/B started out with 3 LE flaps, but they later disabled the inboard LE flaps in an attempt to improve stabilator authority. The J had the inboards disabled, but had them enabled for a short time when they were initially converted to the S, but eventually had them disabled again. The non-slatted F-4E didn't have the inboard LE flaps.

 

Cheers!

Ben

 

Edited by Ben Brown
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12 hours ago, Christer A said:

@Julien Big thanks for the tank pictures!

Now I just need to ponder how to best represent that flange in 1/48, but that's modelling, right?

Thanks for the clarification Murph!

E-2 models in 1986 must've been quite long in the tooth by then? I guess there  must've been a large stock of those missiles and all F & M Sparrows went to the newer aircrafts ?

The AIM-7F didn't get to the F-4 fleet till almost the end of its life, when the F-4G used it in the late 80s and early 90s.  The M model was used exclusively by the "Teen Series" and I doubt the F-4 radar could have supported it anyway, since the M was designed to work with a pulse-doppler radar.  By the time the AIM-7F/M versions were introduced the F-4 (with the exception of the National Guard FIS units) was primarily an air to ground aircraft, and its missiles used purely for self-defense, so the newer fighters had the priority on the latest missiles.

 

Regards,

Murph

Edited by Murph
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5 hours ago, Murph said:

The M model was used exclusively by the "Teen Series" and I doubt the F-4 radar could have supported it anyway

The AIM-7M was available to the F-4E/G/S, according to at least one publication, there is also a pic (official DoD) of an F-4G carrying AIM-7M but I can't find it at this late/early hour of the night/morning...

 

-Dazza

Edited by Dazza
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Murph, you're a treasure of information!

 

Question regarding all weapon pylons and launch rails etcetera:

It looks like they were painted Dark green, regardless of the under surface color?

Does this apply to the 370Gal tank above, Sidewinder launch rails and those funky chaff/flare dispensers (AN/ALE-40?) as seen on this museum F-4E:

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/howard_mason5/f-4e_munich/

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9 hours ago, Dazza said:

The AIM-7M was available to the F-4E/G/S, according to at least one publication, there is also a pic (official DoD) of an F-4G carrying AIM-7M but I can't find it at this late/early hour of the night/morning...

 

-Dazza

FWIW, two of the people I work with flew the F-4E in the late 80s and they never saw anything newer than the AIM-7F on their jets or any documentation to support them getting the AIM-7M.  The F-4G wouldn't have been any different in that regard.  I couldn't say about the F-4S, that was a totally different radar, and our token "squid" here is too young to have flown the F-4.  As far as pictures, if you're referring to this one attached below, those are AIM-7Fs; there are only two fuse windows on the forward body of the missile, which is how you can tell them apart from the AIM-7M in pictures.  As an aside for modelers, compare the AGM-88 HARMs to the AGM-65B Mavericks; the HARMs are not painted white, they're light gray FS #36622.

 

IfbXJy7.jpg

1 hour ago, Christer A said:

Murph, you're a treasure of information!

 

Question regarding all weapon pylons and launch rails etcetera:

It looks like they were painted Dark green, regardless of the under surface color?

Does this apply to the 370Gal tank above, Sidewinder launch rails and those funky chaff/flare dispensers (AN/ALE-40?) as seen on this museum F-4E:

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/howard_mason5/f-4e_munich/

Happy to help.  In many (most/all?) cases the chaff/flare dispensers, but not necessarily the fairing and mount, were left in natural metal, but trying to pick them out in photos is just about impossible if any type of external stores are carried.  For the pylons, you'll generally find the inboard pylons were painted to match the surrounding camo color, while the outboard pylons and wing tanks were painted dark green FS #34079.

 

Regards,

Murph

Edited by Murph
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On ‎10‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 12:36 PM, Smudge said:

Thanks for the link to the Euro One profile, very handy. Although I take your point that there can be a lot of variation on individual aircraft.

 

Interesting how the aircraft look so much darker, just by substituting the tan for grey.

 

If you add the Light Reflectance Values of each of the 3 colours together then average them by dividing by 3 again (sorry, I know that's common knowledge!) then we get the average tone for the scheme.

 

SEA - 34079 - 9%, 34102 - 10%, 30219 - 19%

Average tone 12.67%

 

 

Euro One - 34079 - 9%, 34102 - 10%, 36081 - 10%

Average tone 9.67%

 

So overall European One is about 1/3 darker on average. I agree it looks more though. That said, lighting conditions plays a big part, and, many photographs of SEA aircraft depict weary aircraft with a lot of bleaching so the reality probably is that we're not comparing good condition SEA schemes with good condition Euro1 schemes.

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3 hours ago, Murph said:

FWIW, two of the people I work with flew the F-4E in the late 80s and they never saw anything newer than the AIM-7F on their jets or any documentation to support them getting the AIM-7M.  The F-4G wouldn't have been any different in that regard.  I couldn't say about the F-4S, that was a totally different radar, and our token "squid" here is too young to have flown the F-4.  As far as pictures, if you're referring to this one attached below, those are AIM-7Fs; there are only two fuse windows on the forward body of the missile, which is how you can tell them apart from the AIM-7M in pictures.  As an aside for modelers, compare the AGM-88 HARMs to the AGM-65B Mavericks; the HARMs are not painted white, they're light gray FS #36622.

 

IfbXJy7.jpg

Happy to help.  In many (most/all?) cases the chaff/flare dispensers, but not necessarily the fairing and mount, were left in natural metal, but trying to pick them out in photos is just about impossible if any type of external stores are carried.  For the pylons, you'll generally find the inboard pylons were painted to match the surrounding camo color, while the outboard pylons and wing tanks were painted dark green FS #34079.

 

Regards,

Murph

Yes, Murph, that is indeed the picture I was thinking of, thanks for the clarification, weapons are not an area I am that up to speed on, among many other areas some would also argue! :D

 

-Dazza

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51 minutes ago, Dazza said:

Yes, Murph, that is indeed the picture I was thinking of, thanks for the clarification...

 

-Dazza

No problem.  I did quite a few preflights on both versions of the AIM-7 over the years.  The AIM-7M had four fuse windows set in line with the wings/fins, but the AIM-7F only had two fuse windows which were offset between the line of the wings and fins.

 

Regards,

Murph

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4 hours ago, Murph said:

No problem.  I did quite a few preflights on both versions of the AIM-7 over the years.  The AIM-7M had four fuse windows set in line with the wings/fins, but the AIM-7F only had two fuse windows which were offset between the line of the wings and fins.

 

Regards,

Murph

Thanks, I'll know what to look for in future.

 

-Dazza

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F-4D 66-0271 Kansas ANG - double MiG killer (2 x Bailey & Feinstein) - (not my photo) 

f-4d%2066-271.jpg

A double MiG killer from Vietnam, this Phantom received special markings and the name "SCAT" during the visit of Brig. Gen Robin Olds in 1986 that flew 66-0271 on this occasion:

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/HD48025

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/HD72055

 

F-4D 65-0801 Texas ANG: another MiG killer from the a.m. sheet (1 x Ritchie & Petit) - (not my photo) 

f-4d%2065-0801.jpg

and

F-4D 66-7751, Florida AF Reserve,  wearing the very attractive "Flipper" scheme following the Europe One wrap-around pattern, but replacing the greens with mid grey and pale grey - (not my photo)

Note the dark green triple ejector rack (TER) on the inboard pylon :

94569f084b999a71d6d182c990230f2f--phanto

 

All there F-4Ds are "standard" aircraft, i.e. without the "Herpes"nose antennae mods.

 

Greetings

Diego

Edited by Diego
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