SEAC Mark VI B24 Liberator Colour Help

[Henners]

Hi, 

 

I am involved in a project to build 1/48 scale models of a Harvard and Liberator which were flown by my grandfather in WW2. These planes are significant as the Harvard was his favourite to pilot and the Liberator the one where he accomplished his most significant missions and ended the war in. As a result i would like to try as hard as possible to get the features and colours correct. I have another thread open on the Harvard.

 

Can anyone advise on the 'correct' olive drab colour? I use enamels. I have heard the humbrol one could be too brown. I also see that xtracolor have 3 being... x111, x112 and x113! Also, would there be a difference between US olive drab and RAF SEAC olive drab? If so, i am looking for the later. 

 

Similarly i am looking for advice on the correct mid grey to use on the underside and roundel blues? Ive heard that the lighter SEAC blue on the roundels should be a 50/50 mix of the darker blue and white. If i find the correct darker blue could i achieve a good match on the lighter blue following this ratio or is there a better colour off the shelf? 

 

Advice much appreciated. The liberator i am looking to replicate can be found at the following link...

 

http://www.aircrew-saltire.org/lib255.html

 

Henry

[Troy Smith]

the Olive Drab is standard US Olive Drab,  it varied.  the undersides would be Neutral Gray.  Standard USAAF finish. 

No such things  as RAF Olive Drab BTW.

 

the chap for this is @Dana Bell 

 

SEAC White is 5 parts white to 1 part roundel blue.

 

Not seen him for a while but @Nick Millman  has an interest in SEAC colours.

 

Note,  the details of B-24's are very complex,  you need a serial number,  and use that to pin down the US subtype, if you want to be accurate,  and then ask here what the details are....

@72modeler aka Mike posted this

http://www.liberatorcrew.com/AircraftGunnery.htm

which will give details of various turrets.

 

HTH

[tonyot]

You have to remember that most of the SEAC Liberator`s were out in the intense heat and sun of India and therefore after any length of time became very heavily weathered and faded. Xtracolor do a US Faded Olive Drab which looks the part,......and the Neutral Grey on the undersides tended to be the lighter version and not the darker blue/grey colour. 

 

Here is a photo of a Liberator used by the RCAF in Canada to train RAF Commonwealth crews intended for SEAC,.....of course this one still has fresh colours and is not faded;

 

This is how faded they became;

 

The roundel centres could range from white to light blue,.....most were white on SEAC Lib`s by the latter stages of the war and 50/50 white/roundel blue was used,..... but I suspect that Azure Blue may have been used too. The best match for he 50/50 colour would be Xtracolour RAF Pale Roundel Blue,.....as used on modern low viz roundels with a pink centre.

 

Good luck with your model mate,

Cheers

         Tony

[Henners]

Thank you both very much. Sounds like the faded x113 is the one to go for.

 

The liberator in question is 44-10679 to sent to the RAF as Liberator B.VI KH114.  It started with 159 squadron under "D" before moving to 357 squadron as "U" (which is the one the painting in my first link tries to represent). The (believe airfix) 1/72 kit actually depicts KH114 as with 356 squadron but log book records disagree with nothing referenced as KH114 in 356 squadron's log books, but very minimal time between entries in 159 squadron and later 357 as KH114. 

 

My grandfather flew in 357 squadron and took KH114 on his final mission. The B24s were adapted from standard mark VI trim (similar to US B24J) to remove the turret behind the cockpit and also the one on the underside behind the bomb doors. This was to save weight as missions would last up to 23 hours so were critical on fuel. Guns were removed from all but the rear turrets for the same reason. I will try and adapt the kit to reflect this.

 

Two things i do not know is what colour the "U" would be on the fuselage (red, grey, other?). I also dont know if it would reference "SNAKE" on the fuselage (i know some in 357sqn did, just dont know if all did). Can anyone help?

 

Henry

[tonyot]

35 minutes ago, Henners said:

Thank you both very much. Sounds like the faded x113 is the one to go for.

 

The liberator in question is 44-10679 to sent to the RAF as Liberator B.VI KH114.  It started with 159 squadron under "D" before moving to 357 squadron as "U" (which is the one the painting in my first link tries to represent). The (believe airfix) 1/72 kit actually depicts KH114 as with 356 squadron but log book records disagree with nothing referenced as KH114 in 356 squadron's log books, but very minimal time between entries in 159 squadron and later 357 as KH114. 

 

My grandfather flew in 357 squadron and took KH114 on his final mission. The B24s were adapted from standard mark VI trim (similar to US B24J) to remove the turret behind the cockpit and also the one on the underside behind the bomb doors. This was to save weight as missions would last up to 23 hours so were critical on fuel. Guns were removed from all but the rear turrets for the same reason. I will try and adapt the kit to reflect this.

 

Two things i do not know is what colour the "U" would be on the fuselage (red, grey, other?). I also dont know if it would reference "SNAKE" on the fuselage (i know some in 357sqn did, just dont know if all did). Can anyone help?

 

Henry

Hiya Henry,

               Strangely the codes were said to be usually red,..... especially on 159 Sqn.

Have you read this book about 159 Sqn ops,......probably before your grandfather was with the squadron as it was still mainly engaged in bombing ops,.....rather than SD supply dropping and ECM sorties,.... but it does give a very good account of SEAC Liberator ops;

 

 

I used this book as reference for my own SEAC Liberator which is on the RFI page,

Cheers

        Tony

[Simon]

Henry

 

In case you hadn't seen it, there's a photo of KH114 with nose art and the name 'Donald's Digit' when it was with 159 Sqn here:

 

http://www.rquirk.com/159photos/150photos1.htm

 

Simon

[Henners]

I haven't read the book but will look it up. Not sure if 159 did special duties, that might have just been 357 and 358 (there's a really interesting book called Flights of the Forgotten that gives some insight but much of it was kept hush hush). My grandfather was in 357 soon, not 159. Kh114 was initially in 159 before coming to 357. The turret in the pic would have been removed and lost likely the nose art too. I understand that 159's nose art of Donald's digit referenced the "D" marking in 159.

 

Ive also found rquirk website very useful for pics of 357 sqdn but cannot find anything concrete on Kh114 "U" in the pics. What I can see though is inconsistency on lettering, some have a darker shade (presume red) and some lighter (presume grey). And my grandfather can't remember either (however the picture in the link on my first email had grey commissioned). So tempted to copy that unless I find a specific pic of Kh114 in 357sqdn.

 

Henry

[EwenS]

You might also want to track down a copy of "The Moonlight War:- The Story of Clandestine Operations in South East Asia 1944-45" by Terence O'Brien.  The author served on 357 in 1944/45 but flew mainly Dakotas.  It certainly gives a flavour of the nature of the operations they flew and the risks they ran, both natural and man made.

 

357 also had a Dakota flight and a Lysander Flight as well as the Liberator flight (10 of each by the end of the war according to one source)

 

SNAKE was a suffix applied to serials of aircraft that were earmarked for SEAC.  It was meant to ensure a priority delivery to that theatre without other commands grabbing the aircraft for their own use. Having had a look through the various serials in "The Liberator in RAF & Commonwealth Service" a number of points about this suffix on Liberators seem to hold true:-

1. It was used from autumn 1943 to early 1945

2. All the aircraft came from the USA to the UK and then went to India as opposed to deliveries direct from USA to India

3. They are mostly GR variants. There were some B.III in late 1943. 

4. In late 1944 Scottish Aviation were modifying both GR.VIII and GR.VI.  The latter were being sent east and the former issued to UK squadrons. Maybe SNAKE became a shorthand way of identifying which was which on aircraft that looked externally identical.

 

KH114 was built as USAAF serial 44-10679 a B-24J-75-CF Built at the Consolidated Fort Worth plant.  It would have passed through one of the modification centres in the USA to bring it up to British standards before it was delivered to the RAF at Dorval in Canada on 13/8/44.  It was then flown to India arriving at Karachi on 24 August 1944.  Having served with 159 and 357 squadrons it was Struck Off Charge on 11/4/46.

 

As a J-75-CF it would have had an Emerson A-15 front turret and open style waist gun positions (usually filled with a metal panel with a small window when not in use). If you are modelling it with the undercarriage down then the nose wheel doors would open down / outwards.

 

I hope that this helps

Edited March 6, 2018 by EwenS
Tap-a-talk again!!!!!

[Fernando]

Hi, Henners,

 

IMHO, the absolute best OD n°41 the old Humbrol 108 "RFC Green" (cfm. Bob Archer). If you look a modern substitute, go for X112 "ANA 613" (I know, it shouldn't be, but it looks very good). Neutral Grey n°43 is best represented by WEMM's (I guess Sovereign's is equally good). Do not use modern FS36270 "Neutral Grey".

 

FErnando

[Henners]

Thank you both.

 

I managed to locate a pic of KH114 and format to reintroduce a bit of colour. Here it is... 

 

 

Looks above that the lettering was dark grey. Does that sound reasonable? My grandfather's reconing was that it was grey but cant recall the shade.

 

Sounds also that "snake" would not have been on this aircraft having gone USA to Canada to India (no diversion via the UK). Thanks Ewan for your detailed history of production on this Lib (wouldn't have know where to go to find that). 

 

Henry