Ark Royal bow cable deck area

[scalewarship]

Hi All

         Does anyone know the colour of the internal area bulkheads etc of the bow cable deck is? The stern area is clearly white from pictures, but pictures of the bow area appear to be dark, any help would be appreciated

Regards Robin Carpenter 

P.S. Its the WW2 Ark royal 

Edited February 27, 2018 by scalewarship
Missed vital information

[bootneck]

Which Ark are you querying Robin?   If it is either the WW2 Ark or the 1960's one then the deck would be wood, with metal plates where the cables (anchor chains) run.  The bulkheads were white and the deckheads light grey but, from the outsides everything looked very dark in that area.  The dark effect comes from the lack of light getting into that compartment due to the comparitively small side openeings each side; as compared to the much larger, and more of them, openings at the quarterdeck.  Other reasons for the cable deck to appear darker is that it was usually subject to some intense water saturation, from continual pounding of waves through those openings whilst at sea.  The quarterdeck was doubled up as the officers recreational area, as well as the rear cable deck, and so this compartment was regularly maintained, with the white bulkheads being repainted constantly.

 

I would paint my carrier's cable deck bulkheads in a mid or light grey, rather than white, to give the impression of that area being in deep shadow.

 

HTH

 

Mike

[scalewarship]

Hi Mike

  thanks for your reply, oops should of said which one . Its the WW2 Ark Royal I am about to start, but thanks for your input you are right about the white, an off white / very light grey will work better than bright white.

Regards Robin

[iang]

deleted - just realised the photo was the quarter deck

Edited March 8, 2018 by iang

[scalewarship]

Hi Iang

           Thanks for the information and picture, do you know of more pictures like That?.

Regards Robin

[iang]

Hi Robin, 

 

I have a large collection built up over the last twenty five years, including a lot of unpublished photos taken by crew members.  The photo I posted was  from inside the quarter deck. I thought I had a cable deck photo, but can't locate it at the moment. I was scratch building a 1/350 Ark Royal  before the Merit kit was released, so amassed a lot of information/photos.

 

IG

[scalewarship]

Hi IG  I am doing the merit kit with the Tetra set and white ensign set, doing the sinking scene, along with HMS Legion converted from Atlantic models HMS Laforey. Got quite a few pictures externally but none internal.

Regards Robin

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

I'll check my documentation but I very much suspect that it will fall under the category of "anything visible from outside the ship" and thus be painted in the same shade as the rest of the hull i.e. either Dark Grey; Home Fleet Shade or Light Grey depending on timescale.

[iang]

Robin,

Let me know if there are details that you haven't got photographs of. I might be able to help. I suspect Jamie is right,  though I'd venture that the roof, roof beams and any deck supports were white. 

 

Ian

[scalewarship]

Thanks Jamie and Ian, photos at the sinking certainly show white/ very light grey in the quarterdeck area but the bow area is not clear enough to tell what the colour is. I would guess the deck head  (ceiling ) was white and other surfaces medium grey 507b 

regards Robin

P.S thanks for the picture offer Ian I may well want some details confirming, but this will be a long build.

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Are you aware that 507B wasn't medium grey? That seems to have been a leap of logic within the past 3 or 4 decades - but it's not supported by any contemporary official documentation I've seen. Quite the contrary actually, there are several official documents which directly contradict that notion.

[iang]

48 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

Are you aware that 507B wasn't medium grey? That seems to have been a leap of logic within the past 3 or 4 decades - but it's not supported by any contemporary official documentation I've seen. Quite the contrary actually, there are several official documents which directly contradict that notion.

Jamie,

I've been following the discussion on the nomenclature of RN Grey paints with interest. However, it is clear from early war and pre-war photographs that RN ships were painted in a medium grey, as well as dark and light grey (judging by a comparison with the boot topping). Do you know whether the colour that was formerly assigned as 507B is a reasonable representation of this medium grey? In other words, is it the nomenclature or the colour that is in doubt? 

 

Ian

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

2 hours ago, iang said:

Jamie,

I've been following the discussion on the nomenclature of RN Grey paints with interest. However, it is clear from early war and pre-war photographs that RN ships were painted in a medium grey, as well as dark and light grey (judging by a comparison with the boot topping). Do you know whether the colour that was formerly assigned as 507B is a reasonable representation of this medium grey? In other words, is it the nomenclature or the colour that is in doubt? 

 

Ian

Hi Ian,

 

I can't fully answer that I'm afraid.

 

The nomenclature is definitely wrong. The modern understanding of Dark Grey, Home Fleet Shade is also a bit off which might at first seem to be nit-picking but I believe the compound errors combined with juxtaposition and some peculiarities with human colour perception all conspire to make us want to see a medium grey as existing. Snyder & Short's 507A is a bit darker than Dark Grey, Home Fleet Shade, whilst their 507B is much, much lighter than Dark Grey, Home Fleet Shade.

 

Whilst absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, what is very concerning about this "medium grey" idea is that there are so many documents discussing colour Dark Grey, Home Fleet Shade (and formulation 507B to make it) and Light Grey (and formulation 507C to make it) in the same place, with fleet orders listing whether 507B, 507C, White, Black etc was to be used where on which ships and on what stations - and none of them so much as hint at the existence of a medium grey with the exception of one which I forget the exact nature of, dated early-mid war time allowing an emergency mix of 507A and 507C to be used if necessary.

 

Even the famous 1937 Spithead Coronation Review photographs don't show any examples of a 3rd grey in the same photograph in the same lighting conditions:

 

 

 

 

The ship in the background to the left is Dunkerque:

 

 

 

So whilst I agree that in many photographs these can look a bit lighter than we expect when we think of "507A" as we currently understand it, as far as extant written records go a medium grey simply didn't exist at this time. The Royal Navy used Dark Grey and Light Grey with bits of black, white or wood varnish here and there. Captains could do whatever they liked with the ships' boats so long as it looked smart and wasn't blue because that was reserved for the Admiral's Barge on flagships. The point of mentioning this last bit is to highlight how comprehensive and thorough some of these documents are - we're not talking a few potted notes about Dark Grey and Light Grey with potentially other potted notes missing - we're talking documents published to the entire fleet rolling out new orders about which colours to use on which stations. It's almost unthinkable that a Captain would turn up at the Coronation Review at Spithead with a capital ship of the Senior Service painted in an off-spec paint.

 

That's the problem with "Medium Grey" - it doesn't exist anywhere in surviving records. If it did exist and was recorded formally, then no archives we're aware of have any copies. It also doesn't explain how such a document could exist in administrative harmony with concurrent Fleet Orders that don't mention a medium grey. If you were the Captain, which takes precedence?

 

 

 

 

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

This photo of the Ark Royal herself I thought could be a good example of perceptive failings though. It looks like a medium grey, I think? Certainly compared to the current mental image of 507A as per Snyder & Short

 

 

So, I have just taken a snap shot out of the hull from the stern there, then used mkweb to summarise the average shades in RGB: http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/color-summarizer/

I set it for 5 clusters, one of which was deliberately the boot topping. The internal bulkheads took a cluster to themselves too as they are painted lighter (not glaring, I don't think because bulkheads in the same plane midships are darker). That left 3 clusters on the grey part of the hull; the lightest bit glaring at the very stern, a "medium" bit under the ARK ROYAL lettering and a dark bit just right of that little boat's funnel in shadow.

 

I then used http://www.easyrgb.com/en/convert.php to tell me the Light Reflectance Value of each of the clusters:

 

Now, if I tell you that Snyder and Short's 507A "Dark Grey" measures (via spectrophotometer) at around 8.2% Light Reflectance Value, that their 507B "Medium Grey" measures at 20% Light Reflectance Value, and that according to contemporary documentation 507A measured 10% Light Reflectance Value, but with one document (in file ADM212-124 at The National Archives, Kew) documenting beside the paint swatch that the Light Reflectance Value for 507A was 10-13% Light Reflectance Value, then what conclusion does that photograph and the above facts lead towards?

 

 

[iang]

7 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

 

Now, if I tell you that Snyder and Short's 507A "Dark Grey" measures (via spectrophotometer) at around 8.2% Light Reflectance Value, that their 507B "Medium Grey" measures at 20% Light Reflectance Value, and that according to contemporary documentation 507A measured 10% Light Reflectance Value, but with one document (in file ADM212-124 at The National Archives, Kew) documenting beside the paint swatch that the Light Reflectance Value for 507A was 10-13% Light Reflectance Value, then what conclusion does that photograph and the above facts lead towards?

 

 

Jamie,

Interesting analysis. In the absence of which, I would have said the hull of Ark Royal in that photo shows medium grey, but dark grey seems pretty convincing.  I do have a 1940 photo of Illustrious in a two colour disruptive scheme that I'd previously thought was medium and light grey, which I'll post separately.

 

Robin,

 

I've found the cable deck photo. This is from an album I own of photos taken by an unknown sailor who served on Ark Royal in 1939/40, Victorious 1942/3 and Indefatigable 1945. The photo is between the Ark Royal and Victorious section, so could, in fact, be either. 

 

 

Hope that helps,

 

Ian

Edited March 9, 2018 by iang

[iang]

21 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

So whilst I agree that in many photographs these can look a bit lighter than we expect when we think of "507A" as we currently understand it, as far as extant written records go a medium grey simply didn't exist at this time. The Royal Navy used Dark Grey and Light Grey with bits of black, white or wood varnish here and there. Captains could do whatever they liked with the ships' boats so long as it looked smart and wasn't blue because that was reserved for the Admiral's Barge on flagships. The point of mentioning this last bit is to highlight how comprehensive and thorough some of these documents are - we're not talking a few potted notes about Dark Grey and Light Grey with potentially other potted notes missing - we're talking documents published to the entire fleet rolling out new orders about which colours to use on which stations. It's almost unthinkable that a Captain would turn up at the Coronation Review at Spithead with a capital ship of the Senior Service painted in an off-spec paint

 

 

 

Hi Jamie,

 

I can see the logic of your argument and the point about Admiralty instructions is pretty compelling. But to play devil's advocate for a moment, I'd always thought that this colour film of Hood shows her in medium grey, and the colour seems to have a reasonable resemblance to what was thought of as 507B. Would you say now that this is 507A?

 

 

 

Also, how about this photo of Illustrious 1940?

 

 

 

One of those two colours is surely medium grey? Note that this is before she was painted in this pattern in much higher contrast (I assume 507A/507B).

 

Ian

Edited March 10, 2018 by iang

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Hi Ian,

 

I totally see where you're coming from. What I'm saying is that a medium grey is simply absent from all surviving official records that we've seen.

 

I've got a single line of enquiry left open for this, spurred by a one liner by Captain Tennant of HMS Repulse in late 1940. He was describing a grey between Dark Grey, Home Fleet Shade and Light Grey, then commented that it was similar to a light grey mentioned in CB.3016/37 which was a 1937 document describing naval tactics. I've never seen a copy of that, but I have last night found a book bibliography mentioning it and crediting the reference to the Naval Historical Branch, Ministry of Defence, London. NMRM might have it now so I mailed last night to ask them.

 

Otherwise though, it just isn't there.

 

507B was changed in 1936 ahead of the Jubilee where more blue was added to the formula which strongly implies that that was what they were using - it was afterall the prescribed paint for the Home Fleet.

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

@iang I have spent a bit of time today retyping a photocopy of a scan of a document I have. The quality of my copy is poor and whilst good enough for me to read, I don't think it would survive another scan. It's also hard to extract quotes thus.

 

Besides that remark I've noted above, the following is the only reference I've seen that *might* permit a medium tone of grey.

 

https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/pages/royal-navy-colours-of-world-war-two-c-a-f-o-1112-camouflage-of-sea-going-ships-june-1942

 

There's a 427kb PDF to download which if I can link straight from here might be had here:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0730/0927/files/CAFO1112_Camouflage_of_Sea_Going_Ships_Policy_June_1942.pdf?11210309288652758831

 

It's dated to June 1942. A Confidential Admiralty Fleet Order is very official, and as it clearly states, it was applicable to all ship types in all waters. It makes repeated reference to C.A.F.O. 679/42 (which you can find a copy of at the National Archives, Kew - I've seen it) from the same year, which covered the same sort of subject but was concerned with standardised designs of Destroyers and smaller craft, using 507A, 507C, MS1, MS2, MS3, MS4, MS4A and B5 (note, C.A.F.O. 679/42 did NOT mention B6, although evidence exists that it was indeed in use at the time).

 

Some specifics:

M.S.3. had a Light Reflectance value of around 20%. This is approximately the same tone as Alan Raven and Snyder & Short's 507B "Medium Grey". M.S.3. and Mountbatten pink are cited in Section III as being DARK MEDIUM TONE, and notes that these designs are not shown in C.A.F.O. 679/42.

 

Section V deals with emergency designs, defined as camouflage without pattern. The idea being that an all-over paint with same tone as the average tone of a disruptive pattern scheme will do as good a concealment job, but without any help in confusing observers with respect to inclination angles or identity. Before giving the equivalent paints to use all over it states:

Little experience has been gained with these emergency designs... so we should not assume that the following was the defacto Home Fleet shade of grey - but here it is anyway:

 

(c) Equivalent of DARK MEDIUM TONE Designs. – All weather work should be painted with a mixture of equal parts Light Grey Admiralty Pattern 507C and Dark Grey Admiralty Pattern 507A.

 

That in itself strongly implies that a paint of tone between the two was not in widespread use. If there were such a paint, then surely they'd just say to use that?

 

[scalewarship]

On 09/03/2018 at 8:38 PM, iang said:

Jamie,

Interesting analysis. In the absence of which, I would have said the hull of Ark Royal in that photo shows medium grey, but dark grey seems pretty convincing.  I do have a 1940 photo of Illustrious in a two colour disruptive scheme that I'd previously thought was medium and light grey, which I'll post separately.

 

Robin,

 

I've found the cable deck photo. This is from an album I own of photos taken by an unknown sailor who served on Ark Royal in 1939/40, Victorious 1942/3 and Indefatigable 1945. The photo is between the Ark Royal and Victorious section, so could, in fact, be either. 

 

 

Hope that helps,

 

Ian

Hi Ian

           Many thanks for the picture. looks to be a very heavy sea when that was taken!!

Regards Robin

[bootneck]

On 27/02/2018 at 10:53, bootneck said:

.............  Other reasons for the cable deck to appear darker is that it was usually subject to some intense water saturation, from continual pounding of waves through those openings whilst at sea.

Hence my comment about the dark appearance of the cable deck.

 

Mike