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DC 2K RAF colours - new photo from Kohat


JWM

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Hi,

The CMR was giving such scheme for DC2K , AX 767

Znalezione obrazy dla zapytania Douglas Dc 2 raf

In other source there is a suggestion of roundel A instead of B on top of wings

Znalezione obrazy dla zapytania Douglas Dc 2 raf ax 767

And different scheme on wings

Znalezione obrazy dla zapytania Dc 2 raf ax 767

 

Myself have doubt if "N" was black. Should it be red perhaps?

There is a real thing

Znalezione obrazy dla zapytania Dc 2 raf ax 767

 

Anybody help?

Regards

Jerzy-Wojtek 

Edited by JWM
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I don't see why the N should be red, and looking at the photo it appears darker than the red centre of the roundel.  I would also go with red/blue roundels above the wing, unless there was good evidence otherwise.

 

I'm not clear about the position of the Union Flag in the top artwork.  This is reminiscent of the way the flag was flown from British civil aircraft prewar, but the DC-2K is a military transport.  It seems unlikely that such courtesies were carried out in wartime anyway - except perhaps from a BOAC aircraft on arrival in a neutral civil airport?

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In addition - I found in net also photo of a gemini plane - the AX 755 "O"

Znalezione obrazy dla zapytania Dc 2 ax-755

As you see pattern on fuselage is the same as in AX767 but  scheme on wings is different than in CMR (which is simply the regular scheme for bimotor of this size) and also not the same with that from the flying simulator fans page. Here "O" is much darker then black (?) serial but this looks like ortho film (very dark redand yellow).

What temptating - badly wethered! :)

More interesting at least for me - this particular machine was one of used for transporting (on steps Kair-Teheran and Baku Kair on way back) Polish Comander in Chief of Army and Prime Minister of Polish Government in Excile - gen. Wladyslaw Sikorski for talks with Stalin ...

Cheers

J-W.

Edited by JWM
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  • 2 weeks later...

I am diging now in Net about this AX755, since in some Polish modeller journal I found photo of this machine with letter B, not O.

And on this web page

https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?121324-Civil-DC-2-in-Commonwealth-Wartime-Service

there is written:

".... JDR Rawlings, Coastal, Support & Special Squadrons, Jane’s, 1982 has:
31 Sqdn./Drigh Rd, then Lahore: 4/41-11/43, and cites AX755 (pic as /B inButler/Arsenal), AX767, AX769, DG468/D, DG470/R, DG476/Y, DG479/B;
117 Sqd./Bilbeis: 10/41-4/42, a/c to 31 Sqd; then “occasional use”; 3/43-6/43; cites AX767, AX768, AX769, HK821, HK837, HK847.
....
C/n 1301 NC14268, CCA, DL; by sea, Cape Town; AX755, 31 Sqd/B, 4/41; W/O 13/4/42.  ...."

So twice it it said that it should be "B" not "O" like on photo in my post #3.

So - now there are two photos of AX755, on both serial is well presented but one time the individual letter is "O" and another it is "B". Is it possible, that individual letter has changed during exploitation? Or "B" is part of Squadron code (the photo in Polish journal shows only part of airplane)?

Regards

J-W

 

 

 

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There certainly is a photo of AX755 on p.190 of Phil Butler's Air Arsenal North America: a clear starboard side view, camouflaged, A1 type roundel and A fin flash.  Tall fin flash: rear edge is aligned with front edge of forward "kink" in the rudder hinge line, corner of forward edge touches leading edge of fin.  Single letter "B" forward of roundel.  Colour of code appears light in the print, but the same tone as the blue of the roundel and fin flash.  The yellow of the A-type roundel is a similar tone (not dark as I understand would be the case with ortho film).  A source for the photo is given: ww2images A06284. 

 

The entry for AX755 in the 2nd edition of Air Britain serials AA-AZ reads as follows: "AX755 267/31  Ex NC-14268.  Ran into bomb crater, Akyab, 13.4.42 and abandoned."  Rawlings does not record any D.C.2s serving with 267 Sq.

 

Air Britain's Squadrons of the RAF and Commonwealth 1918-1988 (1988 Ed) says that 117 Sq acquired its first D.C.2s in October 1941, moved to Egypt in Nov 1941 and relinquished its D.C.2s to 31 Sq in India in April 1942.  No reference to any further use of D.C.2s, occasional or not.

 

O/T: Butler also has (same page) a photo of DC-2 VT-APA, "one of the second-hand purchases on behalf of the Indian government".  A clear port side view, camouflaged, A Type roundels under wing and on fuselage (NB not A1).  Registration aft of roundel with vertical alignment centred on tailplane leading edge.  Huge fin flash, almost D-Type: roughly square, with top of trailing edge touching the lower corner of the forward kink in the rudder hinge line and top of forward edge touching fin leading edge.  3 equal stripes.  I expect the registration was in black but from tonal values it is hard to distinguish its colour from those of the roundel centre and the leading colour of the fin flash.

Edited by Seahawk
Addition of reported date when 117 Sq's DC-2s were passed to 31 Sq.
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The wartime squadron code for 31 Sq was EE, when it was carried.  117 Sq.'s codes were LD.  However these appear to be irrelevant.

 

The photo on ortho film of AX755/B in Phil Butler's Air Arsenal North America" is a full view of the starboard side.  Although the camouflage pattern is basically the same, there appears to be significant differences where it crosses over from port to starboard. It has a tall fin flash, and the fuselage roundel is carried further aft with the individual letter B (neither in black nor red) forward of it.  To me this suggests that the aircraft has been repainted between its service as B and as O, but it does not seem to have been around long enough for this.  Alternatively, could aircraft O actually be AX769, as it appears to be effectively identical to AX767/N?  I think that I prefer this option, but a better view of the serial would help.  That AX755 was delivered separately may explain the minor differences in its appearance and markings.

 

In both photos there is a clear contrast between the two camouflage colours, which is compatible with its service in 117 Sq in the Desert Scheme.  There is normally much less contrast between the Dark Earth and Dark Green of the Temperate Land Scheme on ortho film, because the red in the Dark Earth reproduces darker then expected.  However in this example we could be seeing faded Dark Earth. 

 

Butler does not attempt to identify the AXxxx series, (except for AX755 c/n 1301 ex-Canadian Colonial Airways, delivered to Cape Town and flown from there to the Middle East) because of contradictory sources, but states that two contracts went to India, including 31 Sq, and only the third contract went to 117 Sq, of which only HK821 went on to India.  He lists 16 aircraft.  The other AXxxx serialled aircraft are not included in these three contracts.  Given that AX755 was written off in April 1942, I think we can rule out 31 Sq.   How does this date link to the Polish visit to Stalin?

 

Francillon in McDonnell Douglas Aircraft since 1920 Vol.1 (Putnam) states that 25  DC-2s were bought from US Airlines for the RAF, and gives a more complete serial list than Butler, but states that 3 were not delivered and one crashed during delivery.  There is an obvious mismatch here - and although Butler mentions an additional three intended to be ordered for the Indian Government, this order did not materialise. (That leaves two - but there are three missing AXxxx serials.  Is one of these the one that crashed on delivery?)

Edited by Graham Boak
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1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

  Alternatively, could aircraft O actually be AX769, as it appears to be effectively identical to AX767/N?  I think that I prefer this option, but a better view of the serial would help.  

Hadn't till now looked too closely at the serial of the aircraft in post 3 but, at the quality of image available on my monitor, I think I can see AX769 (or at least AX76x) more easily than AX755.

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Many thanks Seahawk and Graham for your kind help. I agree that serial is not sure, but I belived that that someone who scanned it had better insight that we have. But if there is a mistake all stays clear.

This Polish journal is "Lotnictwo", from April 2004 and I made a photos of photo and colour profile presented there

40019001204_fc37e73e44_b.jpg

So serial here has sure ...X75..., second 5 could be also 6, but I have not found any info on DC2 AX756 in RAF..."B" was interpreted by artist (Robert Gretzyngier - well know Polish illustrator of military history) as medium gray

40729235151_c0dc6130d5_b.jpg

According to description below photo the date of flight was 21 November 1941 and it was taken in Teheran.

Next is problem of colour of bottom. On colour profile it is sky, I think it could be also bare metal or light blue perhaps?

Any further comments on this will be apprecieted.

Regards

J-W 

 

 

 

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That looks very much like the photo of AX755/B in Butler.

 

The underside is unlikely to be Aluminium, I feel, but Sky isn't terribly likely either.  Might be, but I think that I'd go for light blue with Azure Blue as favourite (the proper pale one, not the false purplish one).  It could be the slightly more intense light blue seen on SAAF aircraft.

 

In the profile the nose is too blunt, but I don't suppose that'll be a problem with the model.

 

The camouflage pattern is also incorrect, except in the area visible in this photo.  The Dark Earth nose should be DE/MS/DE, and the MS on the rear fuselage should extend all the way beck, with just the tip being DE.  However the rudder is bright and apparently missing the MS, except for the trim tab.

 

It's interesting that the entry door is on the starboard side, which is the opposite of normal US practice.  I wonder just where this aircraft was originally intended for?

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Asked a completely open question, I have to say I would have plumped for AX756 (the top left corners of the last 2 digits look in different styles) but, as you say, there was no DC-2 serialled AX756 (it was a Lockheed 18) and, as Graham says, it does look very much like the photo in Butler.

 

NB the fin flash as shown in the artwork is very different in location and height from that in the Butler photo (it should be tall and thin vice short and fat): I expect the artist extrapolated, understandably but in this case wrongly, from the photos of "N" and "O".

Edited by Seahawk
For clarity.
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Many thanks! I agree with all observations - in particular I see this difference in two 5s, second looks like 6 but rather not 8 (?), I think. 

I have found in ww2images the Butler photo - due to reference number it was very easy. I wonder about nose lamp - the O and N have them but the B from Butler photo? - I do not know. There is also a difference in fin, AX 767 has short, others has long.

Regards

J-W 

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The choice is 768 or 769.   There is a temptation to say that if 767 was N, then 768 will be O, but I don't believe it on those grounds.

 

According to Air Britain, all four of the AXxxx serialled DC-2s reached the RAF, so my nice simple solution to the numbers game didn't work out - not terribly surprised as it all seemed too easy.

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Im Rumourmonger we made some off-topic discussion on DC-2K in a thread about new Sparrow model. Anyway, the discussion started from this photo:

Douglas%2520DC-2%2520DG4xx.jpg?m=1521387

And we did some speculation about the bottom colour. It is not yellow - the roundel yellow is dark so it is ortho film...

Photo is taken in India, 1941. There are two more takes of this machine, on each the serial is not visible.

Any suggestions on bottom colour?

Regards

J-W

 

Edited by JWM
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The fin flash is....interesting being non-regulation size, uneven in application and even with differing widths to the stripes (not to mention the rather odd trapezoidal appearance).

 

Sky Blue for the undersides, anyone? :)

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There is a photo of AX 755 with light large area on rudder - looks like not overpainted piece of light fin as here... Could it be silver?

Regards

J-W

 

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18 hours ago, mhaselden said:

The fin flash is....interesting being non-regulation size, uneven in application and even with differing widths to the stripes (not to mention the rather odd trapezoidal appearance).

 

Sky Blue for the undersides, anyone? :)

 

Looking at the underside particularly around the cowl, I’d wondered about the same blue grey shade as those Blenhiems....

Edited by Dave Fleming
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  • 1 month later...
On 2/24/2018 at 8:15 PM, JWM said:

 

Znalezione obrazy dla zapytania Dc 2 ax-755

 

The pattern on this DC 2 seems to be a non-standard one as for big twin engine machine. Can anybody help with identification what happens on the left wing in particular?  Are there three colours? If you go from roundel to engine there are apparently three shades of grey. Can it be some green left when plane was overpainted light earth/middle stone . Similar on fuselage below "o" - is it just dirt, dark earth or not overpainted green?

Any comments welcome

Regards

JWM

 

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To me, the port wing appears to be in the standard RAF camouflage, just the reverse of the pattern that's shown in the schematic at the start of the thread.  The airframe appears to be rather weary and tired so I expect we're simply seeing dirt/stains and/or possibly some patched repairs.  I don't think it's a 3-colour scheme.

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With it clearly being an orthochromatic photo, I wouldn't worry in the slightest about trying to interpret the colours from it. The "O" on the fuselage could just as easily be red as black for all the use an orthochromatic image is.

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