Chris Preston Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Greetings All, Undoubtedly this question has been asked before, but could those more knowing than myself advise on the correct colour for the wheel-wells of in-service Spitfires, Hurricanes, and Defiants during the Battle of Britain? I have one each of the excellent new Airfix 48th scale kits, but find the colour instructions for details such as this to be a little lacking. Many Thanks in advance, Chris Preston, Victoria, BC, Canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Hurricane - painted aluminum Defiant - painted aluminium Spitfire - inner leg part, ie inside wing, painted aluminium. the outer part with the wheel, underwing colour. This last statement will cause some controversy, as this has been discussed, and it depends on if you consider Supermarine considered it inside or out. I have not seen a photo where when this is CLEARY visible (as often in shadow) it is anything but the underside colour. I have posted a lengthy series of images before showing this.....lets see if I can find the post. It should also be noted that APART from the Spitfire cockpit to the seat bulkhead, and the Hurricane cockpit upper side walls and rear bulkhead, the rest of the internals are painted aluminum. There was a switch later in the war, but BoB era. I assume the same goes for the Defiant. Off to hunt the Spitfire images... HTH found it.... On 28/11/2017 at 02:34, Troy Smith said: On 27/11/2017 at 19:52, Graham Boak said: I suggest that early Spitfires would have Aluminium wells - probably black/white inside to the doors. On 07/01/2015 at 20:52, Edgar said: It rather needs a little lateral thinking, since Supermarine drawings advocated interior areas (except the cockpit and engine bearers) should be silver, but it's a rather moot point if you consider the wheel wells to be interior areas, or not. Oleo legs and door interiors started off silver, but anything could (and did) happen in the first two years of war. Given that the Defiant, Hurricane and Typhoon wells were all silver, I tend to go with the idea that the Spitfire would have been the same (cue photo of Spitfire with black & white wells,) but the block and noose are now obsolete, so it's really your choice. the few photos where the outer wheel part of the well are visible suggest otherwise. http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234974004-question-for-wwii-aircraft-manufacturing-experts/&do=findComment&comment=1851442 There is a press vist to 602 sq at Drem in winter 39/40, with a series of clear pics this is interesting and I've seen more shots from this series bigger, note the leg portion has a light edge, so is catching the light, but the wheel part is dark, Other black winged Spitfires show blacklegs/wheel hubs other photos in the link show the wheel part of the well to be the underside colour, which make sense if it becomes classified as an 'external area' No one has yet produced a photo clearly showing a difference between the underside and outer well section. these show Black/white underside with aluminium gear legs, but white outer well (compare to rad side) this looks to be all aluminium underneath, again well is same as underside this Mk.II appears as to have Sky legs as well as well There might be a shot of a part burnt out Spitfire on a French beach showing the wells? just found this PS - film of a Spitfire daily inspection, for training. note at 4.50 the very clear view of the wheel wells, watch to 6.00. wells are clearly white or black. Also, from camouflage and markings, this look to be May 1940, note yellow ring, but FACTORY standard underside in Night/White/Aluminium. and here at 4.35, mechanic cleaning port wheel well. At 7.20 there is another Spitfire, and at this has "sky" undersides. (making film at crossover from B/W to sky, early June 1940) note this is again the port side, and well looks to be underside colour. Final point, at 7.17 "Q" can be seen to have a name on the starboard side. Shots later on show the same.... 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 13 minutes ago, Troy Smith said: Shots later on show the same.... from @Etiennedup invaluable Flickr Engine overhaul c1943. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr Spitfire P R Mk. XI by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr Seafire by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 Now this: ... is a very interesting photograph for a variety of reasons! I may "borrow" that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said: Now this: ... is a very interesting photograph for a variety of reasons! I may "borrow" that... If you like that, you may also like this! Edited February 23, 2018 by Dave Fleming 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 I'd absolutely LOVE to know the date that pair were taken. It's almost certainly the same aircraft, and whilst the colour of the chin is worthy of a muse in itself as it clearly isn't Sky, I really want to know if this photograph was taken prior to May 1943 because if it is, then the set taken by the photographer including this one: ... are the only colour photographs I know of which capture the RN camouflage colour "B6", the light blue on the island. Looking for images of the ships doesn't help much. It will be very valuable to my naval work if photographs of Seafires captured what nobody bothered to record of the ships themselves. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 There were a number of photographs of Seafires taken on HMS Indomitable when she was working up following her return from the US (after damage on Op Pedestal). This would be very early in 1943. As you say, three of the photos show Seafires (or the same one?) with Sky Blue under the nose, whereas the one behind in the last photo has Sky. There has been a suggestion that this is linked to the removal of chin filters, but this isn't totally convincing. However the actual air intake does appear dark on both Sky Blue and Sky aircraft, so something has been going on in this area. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 I recognise I've hijacked the thread about BoB era aircraft so will maybe take my ponderings to the shippy section 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said: are the only colour photographs I know of which capture the RN camouflage colour "B6", the light blue on the island. Looking for images of the ships doesn't help much. It will be very valuable to my naval work if photographs of Seafires captured what nobody bothered to record of the ships themselves. I got them off @Etiennedup Flickr so there maybe more, 'hidden' behind planes. these are the Seafires https://www.flickr.com/search/?w=8270787@N07&q=seafire this looks to be from the same sequence Seafire IIc, c1942. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr Seafires , 1942. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr this maybe, but am posting up as has a good shot of the carrier in the background in an interesting scheme. (?) I know almost nothing about ships. There is another photo from this sequence on the cover of Seafire, the Spitfire that went to sea the primer or bakelite base to the aerial mast is of note as well. Note, I found trying to search on flickr frustrating, but had success on Etienne's pictures by using the link above and then changing the last word, ie 'hellcat' instead of Seafire. https://www.flickr.com/search/?w=8270787@N07&q=hellcat https://www.flickr.com/search/?w=8270787@N07&q=martlet https://www.flickr.com/search/?w=8270787@N07&q=barracuda https://www.flickr.com/search/?w=8270787@N07&q=swordfish https://www.flickr.com/search/?w=8270787@N07&q=carrier this is an Avenger Loading bombs. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr You might want to PM Etienne as he may have others inn different categories. HTH 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Beema Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/fleet-air-arm-during-the-second-world-war. There is a caption with this photo but take with a pinch of salt.. HMS Indomitable May '43. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205143522. HMS Victorious 5-12 May '42 but the Island structure is different to you photo in post #6. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205145992. This one looks more promising but the photo is a mirror image (unless the back of the Island is the same as the front). The island looks similar in structure to the picture in post #6. This is captioned as HMS Victorious September '42.. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205146317. Seafires on Victorious again. Op Torch Nov 42.. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephLalor Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) Hi Troy, for your dazzle camouflaged carrier you might try www.naval-history.net. It looks to me like an escort carrier, probably US-built Ruler Class. As for the original poster's question, I would tend to go with all silver, or silver leg portion and underside colour wheel portion for the Spitfire. Edited February 23, 2018 by JosephLalor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 8 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said: I'd absolutely LOVE to know the date that pair were taken. It's almost certainly the same aircraft, and whilst the colour of the chin is worthy of a muse in itself as it clearly isn't Sky, I really want to know if this photograph was taken prior to May 1943 because if it is, then the set taken by the photographer including this one: ... are the only colour photographs I know of which capture the RN camouflage colour "B6", the light blue on the island. Looking for images of the ships doesn't help much. It will be very valuable to my naval work if photographs of Seafires captured what nobody bothered to record of the ships themselves. They are usually dated as early 1943 - one artucle postulated that the Seafire cowls may be that same B2....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 5 hours ago, JosephLalor said: Hi Troy, for your dazzle camouflaged carrier you might try www.naval-history.net. It looks to me like an escort carrier, probably US-built Ruler Class. From comparison of the camouflage pattern with photos in David Hobbs' Royal Navy Escort Carriers, I think it is HMS Biter (Archer Class). She arrived in UK in June 42 and was allocated to the Home Fleet. On 22 Oct 42 she sailed for the Med and Operation TORCH. On return to the UK she allocated to Western Approaches Command in April 43 and spent the rest of the war operating with Escort and Support Groups. From this the most likely date would appear to be June-Oct 42. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 27 minutes ago, Seahawk said: From comparison of the camouflage pattern with photos in David Hobbs' Royal Navy Escort Carriers, I think it is HMS Biter (Archer Class). She arrived in UK in June 42 and was allocated to the Home Fleet. On 22 Oct 42 she sailed for the Med and Operation TORCH. On return to the UK she allocated to Western Approaches Command in April 43 and spent the rest of the war operating with Escort and Support Groups. From this the most likely date would appear to be June-Oct 42. good spot! THE ROYAL NAVY DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR. © IWM (A 16879) IWM Non Commercial License (A 16879) IWM Non Commercial License HMS BITER moored at Greenock after a successful operation against German U-Boats. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Troy Smith said: HMS BITER moored at Greenock after a successful operation against German U-Boats. On the assumption that it is correct, this caption is important: the reference to operations against U-boats moves the date out into the period with Western Approaches Command. Depending on the weight we can attach to the word "successful", it may have been taken after 25 April 43 when Biter's aircraft and depth charges from the destroyer Pathfinder and Biter herself (yes, you read that bit right!) sank U-203. Or after 11 May 43 when her aircraft participated in the sinking of U-89. Edited February 24, 2018 by Seahawk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Assuming that the sideview of Biter was taken at the same time as that of the fleet carrier with Biter in the background. If the fleet carrier is Indomitable, then the photo has to be before Operation Husky. Indomitable was torpedoed on the 16th July and returned to the US for repairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 42 minutes ago, Graham Boak said: Assuming that the sideview of Biter was taken at the same time as that of the fleet carrier with Biter in the background. Yes, indeed. I'm sorry: I thought that caption applied to the colour photo - should have clicked on the links to check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 So there's a reasonable chance I'm seeing G20 and B30 then rather than MS3 and B6. Well still useful to know! Thanks folks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 On 23/02/2018 at 12:36, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said: I really want to know if this photograph was taken prior to May 1943 because if it is, then the set taken by the photographer including this one: ... are the only colour photographs I know of which capture the RN camouflage colour "B6", the light blue on the island. Looking for images of the ships doesn't help much. It will be very valuable to my naval work if photographs of Seafires captured what nobody bothered to record of the ships themselves. Just in case this one got missed, another shot from this sequence Seafires on HMS Indomitable, March 1943. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitfire Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 Another one, again from an old Britmodeller thread Just for info https://www.armouredcarriers.com/hms-indomitable-operation-husky Cheers Dennis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 And another - with escort carrier HMS Biter in the background again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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