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Sanger 1/48 Stirling Mk.I BF372 - Ron Middleton VC - Finished at last!


woody37

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Unfortunately, the soldering was a disaster so I'm stumped on what to do for the undercarriage now. I'm using flux but I just can't get the solder to bond with the brass. I think I'm going have to go back to using plastic but I will need to order some. Time to go and fill the swear box!

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55 minutes ago, LorenSharp said:

Every time I've tried to solder bit together I get more blobs of tin on me than the part,even with flux and a light sanding with steel wool. I get disgusted  then slather CA . I  will watch this bit closely. I'm gonna need it when I get back to the BUFF I started last year .🙄

That's been my experience and today has been no different! It's a skill that I've never mastered :(

 

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17 minutes ago, woody37 said:

 I'm using flux but I just can't get the solder to bond with the brass.

I'm guessing here, but it sounds to me like you're not getting the brass hot enough.

1 hour ago, woody37 said:

Fortunately, I bought a new soldering set with fine tips, I think my old one was used for fabricating the hull of the titanic 😂

This might be your problem, the fine tips are great for soldering really tiny joints on copper leads for electronic components, but not (relatively) large brass tube.

 

Go back to the big iron and some spare brass tube.

Polish a bit of the tube with wet and dry to get any oxidised film off it.

Coat a small area in flux, then heat with the iron on the opposite side (the back of where the flux is/solder will be)

Dab the end of the solder onto where the flux was placed.

If the brass is hot enough the solder should flow onto the surface of the tube, you just want a thin coating on the outside of the brass.

This is known as "tinning"

Repeat above with the end of another piece of tube so that there is a thin coating of solder on the end.

Now place the two bits of brass in your jig, with the tinned end of the second piece touching the tinned side of the first piece.

Another dab of flux into the join, then put the iron over the join touching both bits of brass.

Once hot enough a quick dab with the end of the solder wire into the join should see the solder flow into the gaps and make the joint.

If you can get the above to work, go back to your bits of leg, clean them all up thoroughly, and tin them where each joint is to be.

Assemble the bits in your jig, then make your first joint.

Once the first joint is made, cover it with damp tissue, and move onto the next one, repeat until all joints are made.

The damp tissue will keep the joint you've just made cool, preventing the solder from remelting when you make the next one.

 

Soldering metals, the joint has to be perfectly clean and hotter than the solder melting point.

The flux will help the solder flow and prevent the metal oxidising, which prevents the solder bonding.

If you've tinned the joints, the solder will stick to the tinning much more readily than the metall to be joined.

A small neat joint is more about getting enough heat in the right place and adding a tiny bit of solder in the right place than precision operation of a tiny soldering tip.

 

You've got all the kit and your parts ready cut, and presumably a few offcuts leftover to practice with, so you've nothing to loose except a bit of time practicing.  Don't worry too much if there's some excess solder in the joints, it's softer thn the brass and should be relatively easy to work with needle files whilst still leaving a strong joint when tidied up.

 

If you can master the soldering you should end up with an undercarriage well strong enough to support your Stirling efforts!

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I'd agree with Dave's comments above Neil in that from the symptoms it sounds like a bit more heat needed. I had a similar issue earlier today soldering an engine-bearer that turning the iron up immediately cured.

 

Your wings look incredible btw.

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Thanks for the tips guys :)

 

I'll have another play tomorrow. I've started a design that uses plastic rod with brass inserts for the joins as a back up but if I can get the full brass to work, that would be more resilient.

 

Much appreciated chaps :)

 

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Hi Neil.

Just read through Dave's suggestions for a successful joint and agree completely with him.

The one thing I would do differently is to use a mini butane blow-torch instead of the iron to apply heat to the joints.  It's much hotter than a soldering iron and can be used to silver solder as well as ordinary lead solder.  The are cheap as chips, and easily re-filled from a standard lighter re-fill canister.  I used to have one here and if I can find it I'll drop it off for you.

 

Chris.

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8 hours ago, stringbag said:

Hi Neil.

Just read through Dave's suggestions for a successful joint and agree completely with him.

The one thing I would do differently is to use a mini butane blow-torch instead of the iron to apply heat to the joints.  It's much hotter than a soldering iron and can be used to silver solder as well as ordinary lead solder.  The are cheap as chips, and easily re-filled from a standard lighter re-fill canister.  I used to have one here and if I can find it I'll drop it off for you.

 

Chris.

Thanks Chris I got your email.

 

im going to have another go following Davies advice first as I’ve already got the materials but will order one of them. Clearly this is an area of modelling with some scope for increasing my skills 😂

 

last night, I made a new strut with a thinner rod running all the way through so there’s more strength. If I can sort out a good solder, I’ll use the new design

 

cheers

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9 hours ago, stringbag said:

Hi Neil.

Just read through Dave's suggestions for a successful joint and agree completely with him.

The one thing I would do differently is to use a mini butane blow-torch instead of the iron to apply heat to the joints.  It's much hotter than a soldering iron and can be used to silver solder as well as ordinary lead solder.  The are cheap as chips, and easily re-filled from a standard lighter re-fill canister.  I used to have one here and if I can find it I'll drop it off for you.

 

Chris.

 

I was going to suggest the same thing but then wondered what effect it would have on the plywood and balsa template!

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The nice jig you have made may be adding to the soldering frustration.

The heat may cause the wood to release water or resin vapours which contaminate the brass surface. 

Also when soldering of this type is attempted , a full assy all at once , generally the jig is of material that will withstand more than the heat required for soldering . That way the entire assy can be heated and soldered very quickly.

I suggest that a thorough cleaning is needed , followed by soaking in lacquer thinner  ( making sure the INSIDE of tubing is cleaned out)  , assemble the parts and as each joint is addressed , clean the parts  again with laqs on a brush , just a little , followed immediately by an application of flux , then heat and solder. 

I also suggest that using a 'cold compress' is creating a cold spot that will rob heat from other areas.

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Hello Neil !

Seriously great job, the kind of kit you can be really proud of !

I cannot help about soldering since, I did'nt give it a try yet !

And my skills in welding 1/1 models was at best miserable or sinister :rofl2:

But, I'll try someday :whistle:

Congratulations ! :partytime:

Sincerely.

CC

 

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Thanks for the help guys. After a second unsuccessful attempt tonight, I've ordered a butane torch following Chris's  @stringbag advice and after another good idea on the phone, he suggested using an old tile with some bluetac blobs to hold it in place so that will be the next approach once it turns up. I can carry on cutting the parts for now and I've got one of the main legs constructed using slide fit rods to build up the various diameters. Fortunately, I've got a day off on Friday so I can get some time on it all being well. I'm not going to be beaten by some little bits of brass...well unless it beats me on the next attempt 😂

 

45452323242_bbf1ca28fa_b_d.jpg

 

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3 hours ago, krow113 said:

The nice jig you have made may be adding to the soldering frustration.

The heat may cause the wood to release water or resin vapours which contaminate the brass surface. 

Also when soldering of this type is attempted , a full assy all at once , generally the jig is of material that will withstand more than the heat required for soldering . That way the entire assy can be heated and soldered very quickly.

I suggest that a thorough cleaning is needed , followed by soaking in lacquer thinner  ( making sure the INSIDE of tubing is cleaned out)  , assemble the parts and as each joint is addressed , clean the parts  again with laqs on a brush , just a little , followed immediately by an application of flux , then heat and solder. 

I also suggest that using a 'cold compress' is creating a cold spot that will rob heat from other areas.

Hi Steve, My advice posted earlier was based on the tools Woody already has, and the preparation he has already done. Provided that any oxidation of the metal at the joint site is removed and the joint is heated quickly (hence the advice to use the big iron) there shouldn't be any issues assembling the parts, a joint at a time, on the jig he's already constructed. I've not had problems from soldering on wood, and the damp tissue will help prevent previous joints unsticking. If this is preventing the joint area reaching required temperature quick enough the iron isn't hot enough/big enough. A common beginner problem after too little heat is too much. The trick is to get the right amount of heat in just the right place and stop as soon as the joint is made.

I've never used laquer thinner for cleaning prior to soldering, this will only degrease and not de-oxidise, if the metal surface has been mechanically cleaned the flux should deal with any small grease residues.

If I was silver soldering with a gas torch and solder paste, however, I would be jigging as you suggest on firebrick or an old ceramic tile so all the joints could be done together.

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Great stuff mate, it's coming along a treat. As everyone says, lovely job on the scribing/riveting, really neat work.

 

 

By the way, Richard wants to know if it'll be ready in time?, also could you knock up a David Brown Tractor and bomb trollies if you have a minute?....(not sure if he's even started his!)...

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sigh

woody there are lots of ways to do things

Perhaps the best a;lternative for jigging , since you are doing multiple parts , is a fibrous block and pins, sold in electrical store and some hobby shops , purpose built for this type of soldering. Here it is as I used for the swingarm on my Hillclimber:

IMG1180001.jpg

The problem is too many small parts and trying to do them all at one go. You can see the beam I used to align the rear of the swingarm , you will need to do this to line up things, like the small tubes for your axle , they should have a pin or rod  inserted to line them both up. This is a difficult piece you are trying to solder , you will need to address alignment issues.

Wood will flex , shrink  and release contaminants. Lacquer thinner is an evaporative cleaner , oxidation of brass should not be an issue if the parts are sanded or prepped with 3m scotchbrite pad. 

A gas torch is not needed , it will be too hot. This will cause even more problems.

Soldering is a simple quick operation after a lot of set up. If the soldering does not go easily then there are simple problems that need to be fixed ,cleanliness is the most important part.

Searching the forum , automotive threads especially will uncover a lot of guys with the same problem and answers for the issues.

I hope it works out for you.

Edited by krow113
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Looking beautiful so far.  If I can throw my 2c in regarding soldering; back when I was studying gold and silversmithing we used to find it very handy to apply a thick coat of Liquid Paper to completed joins and let it dry before moving on to the next one.

It hardens and acts like a splint that prevents the joint coming apart while you are busy soldering another piece close by.  It also functions as a heat sink, but the most useful feature is if you overheat the previous join it won’t come apart.  When all the joins are soldered you just dissolve the stuff off in thinners and retrieve your fully soldered item. 

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10 hours ago, general melchett said:

Great stuff mate, it's coming along a treat. As everyone says, lovely job on the scribing/riveting, really neat work.

 

 

By the way, Richard wants to know if it'll be ready in time?, also could you knock up a David Brown Tractor and bomb trollies if you have a minute?....(not sure if he's even started his!)...

Hi mate, I'm not sure if its gonig to be ready TBH. The undercarriage is the bit I'm uncertain about in terms of confidence, everything else is just a time thing to get it painted and all the sticky out bits finished. If I can get the undercarriage built it might be doable. Not even thought about the rear undercariage yet! I might have to use the white metal props if its there on time but they aren't that good. I would prefer some Beaufighter ones but need to get some.

 

Thanks for all the tips guys, this online tutoring is excellent!. i'll look at ordering one of them soldering blocks. I've never heard of liquid paper before but again, it sounds like another great tip so off to do some online shopping :)

 

EDIT - soldering board and pins ordered and liquid paper is faithful old tippex so sorted for the next step in mastering solder :)

 

 

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Woody

Just admiring your endeavour with such a sticky problem.

I have to construct some overhead gantry for door runners on my two hangars but its something I have been putting off as I have never undertaken such using Brass.

I like the 'on-line tutorial' and the plan to set the undercarriage in a Jig, I could do the same almost.

 

keep at it as it giving me, (and no doubt others) an insight to the things that normally one does not attempt . . .

 

Ian

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Quote

Hi mate, I'm not sure if its gonig to be ready TBH. The undercarriage is the bit I'm uncertain about in terms of confidence, everything else is just a time thing to get it painted and all the sticky out bits finished. If I can get the undercarriage built it might be doable. Not even thought about the rear undercariage yet! I might have to use the white metal props if its there on time but they aren't that good. I would prefer some Beaufighter ones but need to get some.

2

Don't remotely worry about it, if it's done, it's done, if not then it just gives you more time to do an even better job on what is already a fantastic build. Wish I could help out with the props, I'll ask around and see what can be done.

 

Quote

The undercarriage is the bit I'm uncertain about in terms of confidence,

I'm sure every airman that walked out to the aircraft had similar thoughts!

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On the subject of soldering. From experience of putting etched (model railway) kits together I'd recommend Carr's Green Label Flux and either their 188 or 145 degree melting solder. You can find them at:

 

C and L Finescale

 

The 188 solder "flows" better and is more designed for sheet metal but is a good general solder. The 145 degree solder has a lower melting point. Green label flux works a treat with both of them. It has plenty of "bite" but be sure to give the finished item a good scrub afterwards. Little bits of kitchen towel soaked in water are great for stopping heat spreading to a joint you have already made so it doesn't "unsolder"

 

Terrific work by the way!

 

John

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8 hours ago, Mancunian airman said:

Woody

Just admiring your endeavour with such a sticky problem.

I have to construct some overhead gantry for door runners on my two hangars but its something I have been putting off as I have never undertaken such using Brass.

I like the 'on-line tutorial' and the plan to set the undercarriage in a Jig, I could do the same almost.

 

keep at it as it giving me, (and no doubt others) an insight to the things that normally one does not attempt . . .

 

Ian

Thanks Ian, I guess it’s a learning for many of us so I’ll try to document my trials and outcomes for others to refer to.

 

 

2 hours ago, J Sherratt said:

On the subject of soldering. From experience of putting etched (model railway) kits together I'd recommend Carr's Green Label Flux and either their 188 or 145 degree melting solder. You can find them at:

 

C and L Finescale

 

The 188 solder "flows" better and is more designed for sheet metal but is a good general solder. The 145 degree solder has a lower melting point. Green label flux works a treat with both of them. It has plenty of "bite" but be sure to give the finished item a good scrub afterwards. Little bits of kitchen towel soaked in water are great for stopping heat spreading to a joint you have already made so it doesn't "unsolder"

 

Terrific work by the way!

 

John

Thanks John, 

 

ill have a look look into this, I’m being introduced to new things that I’ve never heard of. If I come out of this build with an ability to solder, then that’s another string to my modelling bow thanks to you jolly helpful chaps here 😀

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Cheers Radders :)

 

Another big milestone tonight, the wings are now fitted and the roots miliputted. Some bits still to do before painting but I'm hoping to have it painted for Telford and on show even if it is without u/c so focussing on the bits that I know I can get done for now. If anyone has any spare beaufighter props (4 off!), I'd be most grateful, I guess I'm hoping rather than expecting!

 

Here's tonights progress:

 

45491292212_72b8fe5ecb_b_d.jpg

 

45491292132_581544e3ea_b_d.jpg

 

45491292102_29f8d67302_b_d.jpg

 

45491291992_a68c38977e_b_d.jpg

 

Cheers

Neil

 

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