F4U Royal New Zealand Air Force

[pacificmustang]

What Steve said Tony.  My read too, was Alan was having a go ay Ventura, being a kiwi company, that still could not get the correct colours.  I don't think he was having a go at you

 

Bruce

[LDSModeller]

6 hours ago, tonyot said:

Hello Alan,..... sorry if you were ashamed of my opinion,..... but you have taken me out of context, and I am not a Kiwi either.

I simply highlighted the two Ventura sheets as being a better option than the poor SKY decal sheet,........ I also agree that the blue is not correct,.... but it did include an aircraft similar to the one that the original poster Lee wanted to replicate, with the Duck artwork.  This roundel colour was my reason for including the 2nd sheet too,...... there are not many options in the UK for RNZAF decals and as Hannants stock limited numbers of Ventura sheets I thought that they might be of use to Lee,... who may not be so rigorous in his perception of the roundel colours,.....  and either sheet is an improvement over the SKY sheet.

 

In future I shall just keep quiet, because you either seem to get grief on here for helping people,...... or help is not even warranted with a simple thank you! 

 

Cheers

         Tony 

Hi Tony,

 

The shame was not on you, but rather that Ventura Decals being a Kiwi Product got it wrong, and as a Kiwi, I am

ashamed one of our own got it wrong, given that we have records at the RNZAF Museum which if consulted would have

(well one hopes) would have got it right.

 

My Apologies you felt, this was directed at you, nothing of the sort was intended in any way shape or form.

 

Regards

 

Alan

Edited March 28, 2018 by LDSModeller
Grammer correction

[LDSModeller]

10 hours ago, Fernando said:

Hi, everyone,

 

This thread would be a cold water shower to anyone wishing to build a RNZAF Corsair using Ventura's decals. V4880 is by far the most widespread sheet, TMK.

 

Amazing that Aeromaster (aka "Errormaster") got the Blue right in their old Special multi-sheet. I got the 72nd scale version and ditched it into the "Not for Use" file owing to its dark look!

 

Have you seen an example of it, LSDModeller?

 

Fernando

Hi Fernando,

 

I have not seen a sheet up close and personal , but I have seen copies of, posted on the net or used on Models.

 

A few Years ago I had the opportunity to buy a sheet on a New Zealand based auction site, but because it was

1/72 scale, I  didn't. Now I wish I had

 

As mentioned by Steve above, Frog's F4U Corsair with FAA/RNZAF markings, the RNZAF Roundels were excellent.

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

[stevehnz]

I have the Aeromaster sheet & from what I've seen on here & various other sources, including, I think, Peter Mossongs website, the Aeromaster colours are pretty good, certainly comparable with the colours on the vid that Alan posted the link to & right in line with the Frog decals, which, if Alan has given them the big tick are right on the button too, as are the colours in the later Ventura sheets. Even the earlier ones that Alan refers to as being incorrect are certainly not as bad as the Sky decals sheet or the Smer kit, now they're just plain Yeeeuuchhh!.

Steve.

[LDSModeller]

53 minutes ago, stevehnz said:

I have the Aeromaster sheet & from what I've seen on here & various other sources, including, I think, Peter Mossongs website, the Aeromaster colours are pretty good, certainly comparable with the colours on the vid that Alan posted the link to & right in line with the Frog decals, which, if Alan has given them the big tick are right on the button too, as are the colours in the later Ventura sheets. Even the earlier ones that Alan refers to as being incorrect are certainly not as bad as the Sky decals sheet or the Smer kit, now they're just plain Yeeeuuchhh!.

Steve.

Hi Steve,

 

Probably the best definition I can find, but you can see the Frog Decals for RNZAF Corsair (F4U-1D) are excellent

and spot on in colour

 

Frog RNZAF Decals

 

The colour call out by Frog though, to paint the RNZAF Corsair leaves much to be desired (Grey)

 

Regards

 

Alan

[stevehnz]

I've not built a Frog Corsair but did use some Frog decals on a Smer one, still needing another coat of varnish on some touch upsin this photo.

r

My interpretation of this aircraft in the Russel book, afterwards, I wished I'd used them on a better Corsair kit, the Smer one( ex heller) is pretty dire. the decals were the best part of the build.

Steve.

[tonyot]

9 hours ago, LDSModeller said:

Hi Tony,

 

The shame was not on you, but rather that Ventura Decals being a Kiwi Product got it wrong, and as a Kiwi, I am

ashamed one of our own got it wrong, given that we have records at the RNZAF Museum which if consulted would have

(well one hopes) would have got it right.

 

My Apologies you felt, this was directed at you, nothing of the sort was intended in any way shape or form.

 

Regards

 

Alan

No worries mate,.... thanks for clearing that up,

Cheers

          Tony

[Calum]

Here's some photos of my F4U-iD. On this I used the Aeromaster sheet.

 

 

 

The lightened patches on the wing are my doing

 

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by Calum

[mholly]

On ‎2‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 12:35 AM, LDSModeller said:

Hi Ed,

 

Thank you for the your comments

 

To Be totally Honest the only real issue with Ventura V4880 is the wrong Blue - should be darker like

the Ventura Sheet V4897. Ventura may have tried to portray the "Faded" look,  possibly one of those

myths that have existed about RNZAF aircraft in New Zealand - bit like no wing folding for RNZAF Corsairs....

 

Ventura have in both Sheets, printed the correct Starboard Upper and Port Lower Roundels, where

the RNZAF had no US Star/Bar. RNZAF SU's painted the Pacific Roundel, but of course with no Insignia Blue

border for the bar, the RNZAF Roundel and Blue outline around the white bar are the same colour.

I have not seen this correctly replicated on other Decal sheets,  which is where the people who supply other manufacturers get it wrong.

 

I could go into how the Roundel was offset but that would just complicate things

 

Regards

 

Alan

Hi Alan,

Would NZ Corsairs at any point in time have yellow outlines on the wing roundels? Something like depicted on this decal sheet?

http://dkdecals.cz/PFII_navod1.jpg

Thanks in advance, very much appreciate your sharing the knowledge.

Cheers,

Mario

in NYC

[LDSModeller]

5 hours ago, mholly said:

Hi Alan,

Would NZ Corsairs at any point in time have yellow outlines on the wing roundels? Something like depicted on this decal sheet?

http://dkdecals.cz/PFII_navod1.jpg

Thanks in advance, very much appreciate your sharing the knowledge.

Cheers,

Mario

in NYC

Hello Mario,

 

Unfortunately again another case of very poor research, or just sloppy perpetuation of "Historical" nonsense.

 

No RNZAF aircraft both on the home front or in forward theatres ever had yellow surrounds on wing Roundels,

especially the F4U Corsairs.

The other issues are the Angry Duck Motif, no Mission markings under cockpit as depicted, and the paint scheme,

they must have plucked that one out of a lucky dip........

I have seen a close up photo of NZ5277 in the Rukuhia open storage and it looked nothing as depicted on that sheet.

 

The RNZAF P40 has issues as well but that's for another day.....

 

Regards

 

Alan

,

[mholly]

36 minutes ago, LDSModeller said:

Hello Mario,

 

Unfortunately again another case of very poor research, or just sloppy perpetuation of "Historical" nonsense.

 

No RNZAF aircraft both on the home front or in forward theatres ever had yellow surrounds on wing Roundels,

especially the F4U Corsairs.

The other issues are the Angry Duck Motif, no Mission markings under cockpit as depicted, and the paint scheme,

they must have plucked that one out of a lucky dip........

I have seen a close up photo of NZ5277 in the Rukuhia open storage and it looked nothing as depicted on that sheet.

 

The RNZAF P40 has issues as well but that's for another day.....

 

Regards

 

Alan

,

Hi Alan,

Thank you very much for your prompt answer. So you say no mission markings whatsoever? Nothing, zero? What else is wrong? Was the cowling "77" in yellow?

Sorry for more questions, thanks again in advance.

Cheers,

Mario

in NYC

 

[LDSModeller]

29 minutes ago, mholly said:

Hi Alan,

Thank you very much for your prompt answer. So you say no mission markings whatsoever? Nothing, zero? What else is wrong? Was the cowling "77" in yellow?

Sorry for more questions, thanks again in advance.

Cheers,

Mario

in NYC

 

Hi Mario

 

The Aircraft has mission markings (being the Red tipped Bombs), but ahead of the Angry Duck.

the rest are fictitious.

If you look at this Montex mask the other yellow Markings  do not exist

(the photo of NZ5277 I have seen, shows this clearly)

 

 

The "77" on Cowling was white

 

Hope that helps?

 

Alan

[mholly]

4 minutes ago, LDSModeller said:

Hi Mario

 

The Aircraft has mission markings (being the Red tipped Bombs), but ahead of the Angry Duck.

the rest are fictitious.

If you look at this Montex mask the other yellow Markings  do not exist

(the photo of NZ5277 I have seen, shows this clearly)

 

 

The "77" on Cowling was white

 

Hope that helps?

 

Alan

Thanks again Alan, extremely helpful indeed. Any red color on the Duck, as per DK decals? Montex doesn't show it.

Cheers,

Mario

[LDSModeller]

6 minutes ago, mholly said:

Thanks again Alan, extremely helpful indeed. Any red color on the Duck, as per DK decals? Montex doesn't show it.

Cheers,

Mario

Hi Mario,

 

The actual photo shows the Ducks beak/feet/tail section as appearing darker (though Black/White)

so very possible being red

Regards

 

Alan

[mholly]

1 minute ago, LDSModeller said:

Hi Mario,

 

The actual photo shows the Ducks beak/feet/tail section as appearing darker (though Black/White)

so very possible being red

Regards

 

Alan

OK, great, thanks.

Best regards,

M

[Ed Russell]

What Alan said - relevant pictures here.

http://rnzaf.proboards.com/thread/20765/f4u-corsair-RNZAF-help

Less relevant pictures

More duck drawings - it seems several Corsairs had this artwork

http://rnzaf.proboards.com/thread/14109/irate-donald-duck-corsairs

http://rnzaf.proboards.com/thread/6136/irate-duck-drawings

Some RNZAF Corsairs (but not that one) here

http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/NZ-Corsair

That's an early DK Decals sheet. Later RNZAF ones have research done by knowledgeable guys in NZ and are much more accurate.

[stevehnz]

3 hours ago, LDSModeller said:

Hi Mario,

 

The actual photo shows the Ducks beak/feet/tail section as appearing darker (though Black/White)

so very possible being red

Regards

 

Alan

Looking at the Corsair photos in Eds 1st link & the duck drawings in his 3rd link, I'd look at doing the ducks beak & feet in yellow, maybe a deep yellow but yellow all the same. I'm guessing the very dark colour in the photos is a result of using ortho film or a coloured filter.

Steve.

[LDSModeller]

53 minutes ago, stevehnz said:

Looking at the Corsair photos in Eds 1st link & the duck drawings in his 3rd link, I'd look at doing the ducks beak & feet in yellow, maybe a deep yellow but yellow all the same. I'm guessing the very dark colour in the photos is a result of using ortho film or a coloured filter.

Steve.

Hi Steve.

 

Deep Yellow or Deep Orange  (if such a thing?) would work too? Bear in mind that these photos of the likes

of NZ5277/NZ5255 etc who wore the motif/emblem, that the Duck colours would have been faded like the

airframe colours. Whilst I have the Maurice Conley book "RNZAF Artist", its unfortunate that he didn't

paint one of the the above Corsairs with said emblem.

The painting of the Emblems interestingly enough was an ordered affair, you just didn't paint

your aircraft as you saw fit. Wally Ingham who served with RNZAF 30 SU/Sqn (TBF-1c Avengers) noted in

his book, that when the idea was put forward for emblems, all drawings had to be approved by the SU/Sqn

flight commanders,before application to airframe.

It's also interesting that even after all these years, tidbits of information surface.

Perhaps another item to check with the RNZAF Museum records?

Man, I just love researching our WWII Air Force

 

Regards

 

Alan

[stevehnz]

56 minutes ago, LDSModeller said:

Man, I just love researching our WWII Air Force

& I for one are pleased & grateful that you do. Even though I've a reasonable library re the wartime (& before & after) RNZAF, it's discoveries on the net both these & WoNZs pages among others have done so much to flesh out that info, you own contributions being prominent among them Alan. Thanks.

Steve

[michael_hase]

Gentlemen,

 

I followed with great interest the discussion and the explanations especially Steve and Alan have been given to us "non-Kiwis" not only about the blue of the RNZAF-roundels in use during WW2. Sometimes it is better to do and follow real historical work than simply copy info from the net without cross-checking! I am very much into historically correct research and models as far this is possible with view to the time gone since these aircraft were in use. 

 

By far I am an no expert on this topic (difficult as being someone from the others side of the world) but extremely interested in the RNZAF aircraft of that time. Thus my questions and I would be pleased if anyone from NZ or expert would join and answer, please...

 

Until I read this and other newer posts I was happy of being owner of the booklet "NZPAF / RNZAF - Aircraft Colour Schemes, Vol. 3" by Warren P. Russel, published by New Zealand Aero Products which covers the RNZAF Corsairs up and down.... This book is 35 years old by now and I always have been amazed of all the info on the different roundel types as well as all the Corsairs and their fates.

Still the cover painting shows a Corsair NZ4505 with "baby-blue" roundels over US-markings which - as we all have learned - is not correct for a front-line aircraft.

With regrad to the newer results of historical research - do you, especially Alan, think this book still is of any good?

 

I am planning to build a F4U-1A or 1D in the three- or four-tone scheme in 1/72nd-scale using the respective Tamyia-kit. Over the years I collected decals as everybody of us does, beginning with Almark´s set "S2" (obviously only of historical value), Ventura Decals V7273 and Rising Decals RD72073 "Flying Kiwis over the Pacific". The blue of the Ventura decals seems to be pretty near the colour shown in one of the previous threads. My question - would that be correct for a "paint-job-fresh roundel blue? RD72073 has very light and pale blue rondels for two of the Corsairs (NZ5424 and NZ5416). What do you think of these decals?

 

Thanks for a reply

 

Michael   

 

 

[LDSModeller]

Hello Michael,

 

Thank you for your post and questions

 

"Baby Blue" roundels are the result of someone noting the faded colour of RNZAF aircraft that had been sitting

in the RNZAF Rukuhia Aircraft open storage site many years after WWII and many Chinese whispers later

lo and behold you have everyone claiming these are correct for RNZAF aircraft

 

If you view the attached link, which is a rare Colour film showing RNZAF P40N's (at about 5min in), you can

see for yourself that the roundels on these P40N's is not baby blue or any shade of light blue - note that

the Roundel Did Not change between these and the Corsairs

 

RNZAF 40N Roundel colour (see 5 minutes in)

 

To answer your question about the Ventura (V7273) and Rising Decals (RD72073), both are incorrect and if you

again noted the colours in the above film clip, you may have already come that conclusion ( I have the RD Corsair

decals in 1/48)

 

Ventura have a sheet with (now) correct colours see V7285

Ventura V7285 Decals

 

If you check out this build in a previous Pacific Group Build of an RNZAF F4U-1A build, and my comments

as well as the final build using the above Ventura V7285 Decals - Splendid build, with right colours for Roundels

Another build by me in same GB is a Frog Corsair, note the Frog Roundel colours,

right on the money for colour

 As far as the Warren Russell Book goes, some of his information is wrong, some is still

pertinent (such as my Corsair build above).

I have spent many hours reading his books, and as time has passed more correct information

has come to light.

 

As far as painting goes on book covers et al check out these Roundels as painted by the

Official RNZAF Artist Maurice Conley (who spent time around RNZAF Corsairs) note the colours

Maurice Conly Painting

 

Hope this helps answer your questions?

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

[michael_hase]

Hello Alan,

sorry for my delayed reply and many thanks for your quick and comprehensive answer. A pity that most decals for RNZAF-aircraft re incorrect - at least with regard to the colours.

RNZAF aircraft are a very interesting subject and as a fan of both "Corsairs" and "P-40" you cannot pass by the special livery these aircraft had in RNZAF-service. Special Hobby from Czech republic have done a P-40K (Kittyhawk Mk. III) with RNZAF-decals.  

They seem to be correct, too.

A bit off-topic but you may be able to answer. Did the earlier RNZAF-aircraft have the US-style harnesses or the British Sutton-harness? Same with radio? My understanding has been that they - the ones in use with the SUs in the Pacific-area, not the ones back home in NZ - came directly from US-stocks and did not undergo a major refurbishment before being used. I don´t think that the mechanics in the forward areas had these on hand, same with radios. I also assume the RNZAF used US-radio equipemtn, too, then.

Again, many thanks for your assistance and sharing your knowledge with us here in Europe....

Best regards

Michael

[Pete M.]

Hi Michael. US belts and radios both in the Islands and back in NZ.

 

Cheers,

Pete M. (now retired and having more time to haunt the boards and further his RNZAF research)......

[LDSModeller]

8 hours ago, michael_hase said:

Special Hobby from Czech republic have done a P-40K (Kittyhawk Mk. III) with RNZAF-decals.  

They seem to be correct, too.

Hi Michael,

yes Special Hobby have released a P40K-15 -took a while to get it where it

is, not totally convinced the Roundels are the correct blue though

8 hours ago, michael_hase said:

Did the earlier RNZAF-aircraft have the US-style harnesses or the British Sutton-harness? Same with radio? My understanding has been that they - the ones in use with the SUs in the Pacific-area, not the ones back home in NZ - came directly from US-stocks and did not undergo a major refurbishment before being used. I don´t think that the mechanics in the forward areas had these on hand, same with radios. I also assume the RNZAF used US-radio equipemtn, too, then.

Are you are referring to P40/F4U-1 Corsairs only? 

 

Bare in mind the RNZAF (Pacific) was attached to the US Navy in WWII so

the use of US communication gear was paramount, so please note the following:

 

Curtiss P40E-1 flown in New Zealand for advanced training, then Sutton Harness (fitted in New Zealand),

and SCR274N Radio system, that either came with the aircraft or fitted on arrival.

Curtiss P40E-1 Taken over from USAAF 68th PG, Tonga 1942 then would retain US

harness and I would say SCR274 system most likely (these P40E-1's were formerly RAF contract).

Later Curtiss P40K/M's US harness and radio/communications equipment

 

Vought Sikorsky F4U-1A, US Navy systems (harness and Communications gear)

 

Hope that helps?

 

Regards

 

Alan

[michael_hase]

Good Morning!

Thanks very much again for the answer. I assumed this but wasn´t sure yet as there still is some confusion about the P-40s delivered to the UK during the war.

I am afraid I will have to order the correct sheet from Ventura for the Corsair-roundels.

Again off-topic: Am I correct assuming that the other decal sheets from Ventura, RD etc. for the dauntless, Avenger and P-40 are not correct either? I wnet through some articles and features in SAM and SAMI yesterday evening and the pictures printed - although b/w showed darker roundels than printed e.g. in Ventura sheet no. V7274.

Best regards

Michael