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Blitz23

F4U Royal New Zealand Air Force

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Chaps, planning on purchasing Tamiya's 1/48 F4U-1A to do a New Zealand bird, I wanna use Sky Models decal sheet as seen below, will be building as the bottom aircraft on the pic

 

39548876764_743430a624.jpg

 

It quotes top colour as light grey but only picture I can find in colour is this one and it looks more like a very pale blue, just wanted to confirm the correct topside colour. 

 

39548877004_c6e3f6c146_h.jpg

 

Lee

Edited by Blitz23
Link correction

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For starters, the info with the Sky decals if likely flawed & the colours used for the roundels are likely wrong too. Sorry, there has been a lot of info come to light in recent years re the RNZAF decal & a Corsair like that in the painting would likely be USN 3 colour Dark Sea Blue, Intermediate Blue & Insignia white, well weathered after service in the islands. The RNZAF roundels would be painted in USN Insignia Blue which is a dark blue & might fade to a faded dark blue but not the light blue or torquoise colour which has been portrayed in the past. Hopefully @LDSModeller will happen along & cast his expertise on the subject too.

Steve.

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Interesting stuff Steve.  Re the faded roundels, how come the darker blue with the bars haven't faded??

 

Blitz:  the topside colour is definitely NOT a light blue. I built a 1/72nd one in these colours and used a bluish grey faded with a spot of white.

 

 

 

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The above colour shot in the opening post is a screen grab from a computer game simulation - so as Steve has eluded to by mentioning it as a painting, it should be taken as an artist's interpretation.

 

There is mention here of the use of at least two blues for the repainting of roundels, one of which was the 'Pre War RAF Bright Identification Blue'?

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1414179842/2/New+F4U-1a+Corsair+EagleCals

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

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I`d go with Ventura decals for a Kiwi Corsair;

V4880-2016.jpg

 

V4897-2016.jpg

 

This is their online shop which also has lots of decent reference info;

http://www.venturapublications.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=83&products_id=310&zenid=ne30kvdikmg3s36kf1e48ts9q6

 

Or Hannants may have some in stock,

 

Cheers

         Tony

Edited by tonyot

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On 14/02/2018 at 17:02, tonyot said:

I`d go with Ventura decals for a Kiwi Corsair;

 

 

This is their online shop which also has lots of decent reference info;

http://www.venturapublications.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=83&products_id=310&zenid=ne30kvdikmg3s36kf1e48ts9q6

 

Or Hannants may have some in stock,

 

Cheers

         Tony

 

Couldn't agree more. Ventura's decals are excellent and they also go on very, very nicely. Also have a look over at the "Wings over NZ" forum run by Dave Homewood which has an enormous amount of info on the Kiwi Corsair units, along with anything else from Aotearoa.

Edited by Julien
pls dont quote the pics

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8 hours ago, Paul J said:

Interesting stuff Steve.  Re the faded roundels, how come the darker blue with the bars haven't faded??

 

Blitz:  the topside colour is definitely NOT a light blue. I built a 1/72nd one in these colours and used a bluish grey faded with a spot of white.

 

Good question Paul & the reason I'd like Alan Willoughby (LDSModeller) to chime in, 'cause I'm happy to acknowledge I quickly run out of expertise here. The link that Jack put up has some information including a Link to the WoNZ forum which has more. As I understand it, there were many variables involved & its difficult to apply a common rule but best to look at individual aircraft on a case by case basis. Short answer to your question though is that factory US Stars & bars were overpainted in field with other paints to modify them to the RNZAF markings, whether locally supplied US insignia blue, a Kiwi mix or paints ex New Zealand supplied for the purpose, so fuselage & port upper starboard under might have the dark bars, but the starboard upper & port under on the Kiwi Corsairs would be entirely painted in field

5 hours ago, JackG said:

The above colour shot in the opening post is a screen grab from a computer game simulation - so as Steve has eluded to by mentioning it as a painting, it should be taken as an artist's interpretation.

 

There is mention here of the use of at least two blues for the repainting of roundels, one of which was the 'Pre War RAF Bright Identification Blue'?

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1414179842/2/New+F4U-1a+Corsair+EagleCals

 

regards,

Jack

This is page two of the thread Jack has linked to, page 1 here. After all that discussion, I'm not sure there is a single definitive answer. Ventura decals are probably the best readily available ones but the earlier sheets tend towards too bright. The Aeromaster RNZAF pacific sheet has good colours & is worth hunting down if you're into this subject. The old Frog Corsair with the  FAA/RNZAF option had good roundel colours & still works well.

Steve.

Edited by stevehnz

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14 hours ago, Blitz23 said:

Chaps, planning on purchasing Tamiya's 1/48 F4U-1A to do a New Zealand bird, I wanna use Sky Models decal sheet as seen below, will be building as the bottom aircraft on the pic

 

It quotes top colour as light grey but only picture I can find in colour is this one and it looks more like a very pale blue, just wanted to confirm the correct topside colour.

Lee

Hi Lee,

 

My advice, stay away from the Sky Model decals 48 - 043, wrong colours, wrong everything.

 

Sky Model Decals 48-043

 

RNZAF F4U-1(A/D) Corsairs were never light grey, dark grey etc etc.

 

RNZAF F4U-1 A and early D's were stock standard Corsairs delivered in USN 3 or 4 tone (which ever side of the street you choose).

The only thing  different were the RNZAF Pacific Roundel painted over the US Star. as per attached photo

aaddf393-5380-45f9-9540-6208119a8282.jpg

RNZAF Official - Used for Illustration purposes only

 

What I'm a bout to say is probably going to wrinkle a few noses out of joint, but really I'm past caring

 

There is a lot of stuff on the internet about WWII RNZAF aircraft, Corsairs in particular, which is just plain rubbish.

This has either been started by some person or SAGE (Self Appointed Guru) that has read or heard some comment

and "Chinese Whispers" later it become Gospel Truth" and perpetuated by all and sundry

Point in case in the colours of the RNZAF Corsair Sky decals.

I have modern colour photos (not mine) of What RNZAF "Faded" Roundels look like some 70 years later, and they look nothing

like the Sky Models or even Ventura Sheet V4880.

 

The Artistic rendition in your post is wrong also, colour of Roundels, as is the markings aft of the "Angry Donald Duck motif on

NZ5277 - never existed.

Continuing with my comments, as I have told folks on the Internet previous (especially those from a certain Geographical area

who like to tell we Kiwi's what our Air Force did or did not look like) that not everything about the RNZAF is on the Internet either.

 

I could write  a long narrative on the Idiotic things I have read on the Internet which includes "Supposed" Know it all's  who don't know it all

 

Also People wanting their 15 seconds of fame by supplying wrong info to Decal manufactures (don't get me started).

 

As far as finishes go please note the following for RNZAF Corsairs:

F4U-1(a) US Navy 3 or 4 tone - some repainted after assembly in overall GSB

Early F4U-1D - US Navy 3 or 4 Tone

Later F4U-1D Overall GSB

FG-1D Overall GSB

Later Some F4u-1's (certainly A's) received an upper repaint such as these two F4U-1's in either Non Spec Sea Blue or GSB

Incidentally NZ5350 -"Struggle Buggy" (F4U-1A) below is the subject of one of my Corsair builds

5de5c77a-53f4-4822-84cc-b299e7b97c9c.jpg

19928b2e-60e8-4da0-a6c8-c353ad82abd3.jpg

RNZAF Official - Used for Illustration purposes

The RNZAF Operated two fleets of Corsairs, one in the Forward areas of the Islands, the others in New Zealand as trainers.

Obviously those that stayed in New Zealand F4U-1(A/D's) didn't weather as much

 

The RNZAF Aircraft that flew off the forward areas, again weathered much more so - These aircraft flew off the same airstrips

as US Navy and Marine Corps aircraft - so weathered much the same

Below is a well weathered Corsair (F4U-1A), but note the Roundel - appears freshly painted/redone

9ee847bf-bed8-4f2f-a807-8c3811e0b690.jpg

 

Dave Homewood (ex RNZAF) wrote in a conversation we had a bout RNZAF Roundels in the Pacific, that the SU (Servicing Unit)

personnel would repaint the Roundels, as they were proud of their country markings, plus if the Roundels were fresh/redone,

smaller chance of one of our erstwhile allies shooting at our aircraft/pilots as they did on occasion.

 

Now the RNZAF Pacific Roundel was painted in paint made by BALM here in New Zealand, it was prone to fade or wear, and when it

did, it looked like this

44202667-2e84-46e8-aba8-b138fd5b7089.jpg

 

Note the US Star underneath - I have yet to see an decal manufacture even show that on RNZAF Corsair markings.

 

Posted above by Tony are the Ventura Decals. As a Kiwi I am ashamed to admit one of our own got it wrong - V4880,

having said that we too have those in the Antipodes who get it wrong...... The other Ventura Sheet V4897, Pete Mossong

who I consider the Kiwi expert on the RNZAF Corsair worked with Ventura to get it right - I would go with that.

 

And in finishing, to stop the naysayers"

From the RNZAF Museum, the colours of the RNZAF Pacific Roundel on NS Spec Sea Blue

and Intermediate Blue - Stores Ref: 33b/164, B.A.L.M. Ref: S13-044, Description: Matt Blue Iden Colour

Correct RNZAF Roundel colour

 

Now a Caveat - I realize modellers can build what they like. To be honest if some one built a Kiwi Corsair with pink and red

polka Dots and said that was "Their Take" on it, I would not be fussed. It's those who try to make out they know something

about it and paint/mark their Corsairs like they have spent 20 years at the Rukuhia Graveyard, as being what our Corsairs really

did look like - that gets me annoyed :blahblahblah:

Thank you for asking, and I Hope the above helps

Regards

 

Alan

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On anything to do with the RNZAF I would take Alan's opinion as as good as you are going to find.

For completeness, it might be useful to list what is wrong and what is right about Ventura Sheet V4880.

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39 minutes ago, Ed Russell said:

On anything to do with the RNZAF I would take Alan's opinion as as good as you are going to find.

For completeness, it might be useful to list what is wrong and what is right about Ventura Sheet V4880.

Hi Ed,

 

Thank you for the your comments^_^

 

To Be totally Honest the only real issue with Ventura V4880 is the wrong Blue - should be darker like

the Ventura Sheet V4897. Ventura may have tried to portray the "Faded" look,  possibly one of those

myths that have existed about RNZAF aircraft in New Zealand - bit like no wing folding for RNZAF Corsairs....

 

Ventura have in both Sheets, printed the correct Starboard Upper and Port Lower Roundels, where

the RNZAF had no US Star/Bar. RNZAF SU's painted the Pacific Roundel, but of course with no Insignia Blue

border for the bar, the RNZAF Roundel and Blue outline around the white bar are the same colour.

I have not seen this correctly replicated on other Decal sheets,  which is where the people who supply other manufacturers get it wrong.

 

I could go into how the Roundel was offset but that would just complicate things ^_^

 

Regards

 

Alan

Edited by LDSModeller

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On 15/02/2018 at 04:02, LDSModeller said:

Hi Lee,

 

My advice, stay away from the Sky Model decals 48 - 043, wrong colours, wrong everything.

 

 

Wow, Alan thank you for such an in depth reply, this is what makes this forum such an excellent tool, others knowledge and the their willing to pass it on.  On your comments I've given the idea of the Sky Models decal sheet the boot and on browsing Hannants I've found the Ventura sheet but also found the Xtradecal sheet for RNZAF Corsairs and wondered what your opinion on this sheet was. An aircraft of particular interest which looks quite different is NZ5272/NZ5307 which I assume is a hack cannibalised from two different aircraft.  I didn't realise what a can of worms I was opening with the debate on colours of the true colours RNZAF Corsairs ^_^

Edited by Julien
pls dont quote whole topis=cs

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As a Kiwi modeller I have to confess I was unaware of the state of affairs around Corsair colours too! This thread is eye-opening but very welcome.

 

7 hours ago, Blitz23 said:

An aircraft of particular interest which looks quite different is NZ5272/NZ5307 which I assume is a hack cannibalised from two different aircraft.

It's also a subject of great interest to modellers worldwide - I swear that about 2/3 of the RNZAF Corsair builds I see online are of the half-and-half machine. There are so many I actually stopped clicking on RNZAF Corsair threads for a while fear I'd find yet another of it.

 

I know I've seen a Ventura sheet with RNZAF roundels painted over the star but I have a feeling it was a Dauntless one.

 

Edited by k5054nz

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14 hours ago, Blitz23 said:

Wow, Alan thank you for such an in depth reply, this is what makes this forum such an excellent tool, others knowledge and the their willing to pass it on.  On your comments I've given the idea of the Sky Models decal sheet the boot and on browsing Hannants I've found the Ventura sheet but also found the Xtradecal sheet for RNZAF Corsairs and wondered what your opinion on this sheet was. An aircraft of particular interest which looks quite different is NZ5272/NZ5307 which I assume is a hack cannibalised from two different aircraft.  I didn't realise what a can of worms I was opening with the debate on colours of the true colours RNZAF Corsairs ^_^

Hi Lee,

 

Glad to help.

 

The Xtradecal sheet is good - they actually asked we Kiwi's for help on that.

 

You haven't opened a can of worms, it's just there are people out there in the Modelling community who

adhere to Myths which have no substantiation.

 

An example from LSP, a decal manufacturer posted they would like to do RNZAF schemes, for the new Tamiya F4U-1D

I commented that the Roundels were not light blue.

His comment was (I kid you not) that he had been told on at least two occasions that the RNZAF had no colour standard for our Roundels.....

I promptly volunteered to get information from the RNZAF Museum for them.

The Museum sent through the info (which included the  Roundels in the link above) to the company, it suddenly became too hard.

Go Figure.......:lalala:

 

About the Spliced Corsairs, both NZ5272 and 5307 were F4U-1A Corsairs, NZ5307 was one of the F4U-1A's I mentioned above that

were repainted after assembly (and before handing over to operational squadrons) in GSB.

Both NZ5272 and NZ5307 really only had some 6 weeks operational life before coming to grief in accidents, and reduced to produce.

Both fuselage sections sat in an RNZAF bone yard for some months, before being mated and turned into the Corsair we know.

(Incidentally a US F4U-1 Corsair and RNZAF Corsair were also spiced but I can't access the photo I have of that)

 

If you serf the net you will find a lot of builds, where people have painted the rear section of NZ5272 Grey - Why, who knows?

 

The rear section of NZ5272 sat in the bone yard, it got a good sun tan, but was not used and weathered like its stable mates

who continued flying and fighting. Likewise for the forward section of NZ5307

When it was joined to the forward section of NZ5307 it was still wearing the 3 or 4 tone colours, which it remained in to the wars end.

 

It was not painted grey despite what anyone says, no RNZAF Corsairs wore grey paint in the Pacific forward areas.

And if anyone says they did, what incontrovertible evidence do they have to substantiate that claim?

(You watch people will start posting photos of the splice in Black/White Photos stating the rear is grey)

 

Interestingly also, I have noted that the Know it all's who have built the Spliced Corsair fail to show, that if the GSB weathers to

what's underneath, they show Chromate Yellow or metal, when under the GSB there was US Navy 3 or 4 tone colours, and this would

show through before Chromate yellow or metal.

 

There are no known Colour photos of RNZAF Corsairs (that have surfaced) all are Black and White.

 

Interestingly Maurice Conly the Official RNZAF artist spent a lot of time around our Corsairs, painting them in water colour.

Funnily none ever show a Grey corsair

Maurice Conly painting  - note Roundel colours

RNZAF Corsairs

Arguably some one could say this was grey,,, but it's just faded US Navy scheme

RNZAF Corsairs

 

Hope that helps you with your questions

 

Regards

 

Alan

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On 15/02/2018 at 04:02, LDSModeller said:

 

Now a Caveat - I realize modellers can build what they like. To be honest if some one built a Kiwi Corsair with pink and red

polka Dots and said that was "Their Take" on it, I would not be fussed. It's those who try to make out they know something

about it and paint/mark their Corsairs like they have spent 20 years at the Rukuhia Graveyard, as being what our Corsairs really

did look like - that gets me annoyed :blahblahblah:

Thank you for asking, and I Hope the above helps

Regards

 

Alan

Commendable comments Alan.

 

I must say I doubt I will ever even think about building a RNZAF Corsair, and my knowledge of them was sparse; but I have enjoyed reading your posts here as they have expanded my knowledge a bit.  

 

We appreciate you taking the time for this on a subject which you have a passion for. This is the type of thread I like to see on the site and after all one of the reasons for it being here.

 

Julien

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On 16/02/2018 at 1:07 AM, LDSModeller said:

Hi Lee,

 

Glad to help.

 

The Xtradecal sheet is good - they actually asked we Kiwi's for help on that.

 

You haven't opened a can of worms, it's just there are people out there in the Modelling community who

adhere to Myths which have no substantiation.

 

An example from LSP, a decal manufacturer posted they would like to do RNZAF schemes, for the new Tamiya F4U-1D

I commented that the Roundels were not light blue.

His comment was (I kid you not) that he had been told on at least two occasions that the RNZAF had no colour standard for our Roundels.....

I promptly volunteered to get information from the RNZAF Museum for them.

The Museum sent through the info (which included the  Roundels in the link above) to the company, it suddenly became too hard.

Go Figure.......:lalala:

 

About the Spliced Corsairs, both NZ5272 and 5307 were F4U-1A Corsairs, NZ5307 was one of the F4U-1A's I mentioned above that

were repainted after assembly (and before handing over to operational squadrons) in GSB.

Both NZ5272 and NZ5307 really only had some 6 weeks operational life before coming to grief in accidents, and reduced to produce.

Both fuselage sections sat in an RNZAF bone yard for some months, before being mated and turned into the Corsair we know.

(Incidentally a US F4U-1 Corsair and RNZAF Corsair were also spiced but I can't access the photo I have of that)

 

If you serf the net you will find a lot of builds, where people have painted the rear section of NZ5272 Grey - Why, who knows?

 

The rear section of NZ5272 sat in the bone yard, it got a good sun tan, but was not used and weathered like its stable mates

who continued flying and fighting. Likewise for the forward section of NZ5307

When it was joined to the forward section of NZ5307 it was still wearing the 3 or 4 tone colours, which it remained in to the wars end.

 

It was not painted grey despite what anyone says, no RNZAF Corsairs wore grey paint in the Pacific forward areas.

And if anyone says they did, what incontrovertible evidence do they have to substantiate that claim?

(You watch people will start posting photos of the splice in Black/White Photos stating the rear is grey)

 

Interestingly also, I have noted that the Know it all's who have built the Spliced Corsair fail to show, that if the GSB weathers to

what's underneath, they show Chromate Yellow or metal, when under the GSB there was US Navy 3 or 4 tone colours, and this would

show through before Chromate yellow or metal.

 

There are no known Colour photos of RNZAF Corsairs (that have surfaced) all are Black and White.

 

Interestingly Maurice Conly the Official RNZAF artist spent a lot of time around our Corsairs, painting them in water colour.

Funnily none ever show a Grey corsair

Maurice Conly painting  - note Roundel colours

RNZAF Corsairs

Arguably some one could say this was grey,,, but it's just faded US Navy scheme

RNZAF Corsairs

 

Hope that helps you with your questions

 

Regards

 

Alan

Wow, some great information here and thanks for sharing. 

 

I only wish I had this info two months ago when I started my 1/32 Corsair. Murphy's law being what it is, I finished it two days ago. Hopefully it's not too far off... 

 

DSC_0125-L.jpg

 

DSC_0134-L.jpg

 

Carl

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3 hours ago, FG2Si said:

Wow, some great information here and thanks for sharing. 

 

I only wish I had this info two months ago when I started my 1/32 Corsair. Murphy's law being what it is, I finished it two days ago. Hopefully it's not too far off... 

 

DSC_0125-L.jpg

 

DSC_0134-L.jpg

 

Carl

Hi Carl,

 

I think your Spliced RNZAF Corsair looks great :yes: I also think you have captured the rear section colours

quite well !!!

 

Thanks for sharing your model with us

 

Regards

 

Alan

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Thanks Alan! 

That's great to know I got the colours reasonably correct. 

I'll post some more pics in the gallery section later.

Carl

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I built a couple of RNZAF Corsairs a few years back. I ditched the Sky Models sheet straight away because the colours of the RNZAF markings looked so  wrong.

 

It was painted in the 4 tone USN scheme. But from what I read and saw in images of RNZAF Corsairs,  the upper dark blue was very faded so the demarcation between it and  the lower intermediate blue was pretty difficult to see.

 

I ended up using the Ventura decals sheet V4880, but I wasn't really happy with the colours in them either, they looked to light. However at that stage I wasn't clever enough to mask some masks.

 

F4_U-1_A-29.jpg


F4_U-1_A-26.jpg

 

The decals were also awful to work with. They were very brittle and didn't slide on the model at all, they stuck instantly to the model (to be fair Ventura models contacted m about this as they recognised something was wrong) .

 

I do have some memory that  Ventura have since redone V4880 with darker colours for the roundels that what was in the original sheet (that I used).

 

I think the best RNZAF decals were on the old Aeromaster Sheet "RNZAF in the Pacific" . I have this sheet but wish they would reprint it 

Edited by Calum

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If it's of any help (probably not! ;) ) i tink i have the rnzaf roundels from the airfix 1/48 kit?  You can have them if you want them.

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Hi All

 

I thought this most recent discussion was the best place to put this.

 

It'd quite rare to find colour photos let alone footage of RNZAF Aircraft in the SW Pacific area of Operations,

but this recent find by Dave Homewood of the RNZAF Proboards is outstanding.

 

It's 12 minutes long, but has some great shots of RNZAF P40N's operating from a coral

airstrip along side US F4U Corsairs. The Blurb says Australian P40's, bit they are really from New Zealand.

 

Note the colour of the RNZAF Roundels they are not Light Blue/Pastel Blue or any thing like

Electric Blue;) They are Dark Blue!!!

 

US Colour Film with Kiwi P40N's

 

Hope you enjoy as much as I did

 

Regards

 

Alan

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Thanks Alan, i nabbed a couple of screen shots on the P-40s under the trees, showed the roundel colour well.

Steve.

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Hi, everyone,

 

This thread would be a cold water shower to anyone wishing to build a RNZAF Corsair using Ventura's decals. V4880 is by far the most widespread sheet, TMK.

 

Amazing that Aeromaster (aka "Errormaster") got the Blue right in their old Special multi-sheet. I got the 72nd scale version and ditched it into the "Not for Use" file owing to its dark look!

 

Have you seen an example of it, LSDModeller?

 

Fernando

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Posted (edited)

And the RNZAF markings (NZ5218) Airfix provided when they last reboxed the Otaki 1/48 kit got it right as well.

Edited by Seahawk

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On 15/02/2018 at 4:02 AM, LDSModeller said:

Posted above by Tony are the Ventura Decals. As a Kiwi I am ashamed to admit one of our own got it wrong - V4880,

having said that we too have those in the Antipodes who get it wrong...... The other Ventura Sheet V4897, Pete Mossong

who I consider the Kiwi expert on the RNZAF Corsair worked with Ventura to get it right - I would go with that.

 

Regards

 

Alan

Hello Alan,..... sorry if you were ashamed of my opinion,..... but you have taken me out of context, and I am not a Kiwi either.

I simply highlighted the two Ventura sheets as being a better option than the poor SKY decal sheet,........ I also agree that the blue is not correct,.... but it did include an aircraft similar to the one that the original poster Lee wanted to replicate, with the Duck artwork.  This roundel colour was my reason for including the 2nd sheet too,...... there are not many options in the UK for RNZAF decals and as Hannants stock limited numbers of Ventura sheets I thought that they might be of use to Lee,... who may not be so rigorous in his perception of the roundel colours,.....  and either sheet is an improvement over the SKY sheet.

 

In future I shall just keep quiet, because you either seem to get grief on here for helping people,...... or help is not even warranted with a simple thank you! 

 

Cheers

         Tony 

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Hi Tony, I don't think Alan was meaning you as the one to be ashamed of but rather Ventura decals as a Kiwi company, one of our (Kiwi) own, that was my understanding of this anyway. 

As an aside & extra to Nick's & Fernando's comment's above, the old Frog Corsair with the RNZAF/FAA options also got the colours pretty much spot on.

Steve

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