50s NATO Vs Warsaw Pact in Europe GB Chat

[exdraken]

as my Thunderjet in Yugoslav markings is progressing fast   I am thinking of putting a contemporaneous MiG-15 to its side . neighboring countries would be Hungary, Bulgaria and Albania..... Albania is already represented in this GB... so eiher Bulgaria or Hungary! any decals out there? any special schemes/ camo? of the 1950ies in these countries? thanks for any info! 

 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2019 by exdraken

[Col.]

27 minutes ago, exdraken said:

as my Thunderjet in Yugoslav markings is progressing fast   I am thinking of putting a contemporaneous MiG-15 to its side . neighboring countries would be Hungary, Bulgaria and Albania..... Albania is already represented in this GB... so eiher Bulgaria or Hungary! any decals out there? any special schemes/ camo? of the 1950ies in these countries? thanks for any info! 

Had a quick look around but not finding anything for the -15 in either Hungarian or Bulgarian markings yet  

[Col.]

Here we are over a fortnight into our GB and already there's a couple finished models gracing the gallery thread with several more making good progress towards it. The variety of subjects is as good as always has been within our series of GBs but there's a definite tilt in popularity towards the west this time around with only four Warpac subjects and a few neutral participants showing as I type this. Early days yet though  

 

For my own part I must confess to the workbench being far too untidy and a current project sitting in the middle of the mess taking up what little free time I can lavish on it so have not started a thread of my own yet. While I continue to procrastinate and live vicariously through everyone else's work I do have plenty potential subjects that would qualify. There's a couple MiG-15s and several Hunters that I've cast sidelong glances at along with a SAAB J-21 which has been given serious consideration but current front-runner would involved using these...

 

 

 

...to act as references for these...

 

 

Both would be done in 602 Sqn. markings and there's also a second copy of the Airfix Spitfire 22 kit with various spare parts projected to one day become a 21 but time will tell how far any of this will progress beyond an idea. Wish me luck gang

[Aardvark]

22 hours ago, exdraken said:

I am thinking of putting a contemporaneous MiG-15 to its side . neighboring countries would be Hungary, Bulgaria and Albania..... Albania is already represented in this GB... so eiher Bulgaria or Hungary! any decals out there? any special schemes/ camo? of the 1950ies in these countries? thanks for any info! 

1.About Hungary, 

why not ask @ya-gabor ?

2. ......Albania....Bulgaria....Hungary.....what for?

As I remember, was the same Central Group of Soviet Forces in Austria until 1955.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Group_of_Forces

She had 2nd Air Army (59th Air Army) :

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_Air_Army

 

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-я_воздушная_армия_(СССР)

 

inside this Air Army was many Fighter/Bomber/Cargo regiment.

As examples:

- based in Austria 

6 Guards Fighter Air Corps

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/6-й_гвардейский_истребительный_авиационный_корпус

On P-39 Aircobra:

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/129-й_гвардейский_истребительный_авиационный_полк

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/352-й_истребительный_авиационный_полк

 

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/69-й_гвардейский_истребительный_авиационный_полк

( By the way, I don’t know if this Aircobra survived in WW2 and base on the airfields of Austria after the war, but pay attention to what a impressive nose art was at Squadron Commander of the 69th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment of the Guard Captain N.I. Proshenkov on the wing of his aircraft P-39 "Air Cobra"

http://waralbum.ru/144619/ )

 

On P-39 Aircobra/ Р-63 Kingcobra:

 

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/67-й_гвардейский_истребительный_авиационный_полк

 

As far as I remember, I met on the Internet photos or art of the P-39, La-9 (or 11?), Tu-2 and MiG-15 UTI based in Austria.

 

B.R.

Serge

[rafalbert]

Excellent Col., bring on the 602 Sqn machines, it is always good to see them!

[exdraken]

28 minutes ago, Aardvark said:

1.About Hungary, 

why not ask @ya-gabor ?

2. ......Albania....Bulgaria....Hungary.....what for?

As I remember, was the same Central Group of Soviet Forces in Austria until 1955.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Group_of_Forces

She had 2nd Air Army (59th Air Army) :

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_Air_Army

 

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-я_воздушная_армия_(СССР)

 

inside this Air Army was many Fighter/Bomber/Cargo regiment.

As examples:

- based in Austria 

6 Guards Fighter Air Corps

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/6-й_гвардейский_истребительный_авиационный_корпус

 

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/67-й_гвардейский_истребительный_авиационный_полк

 

As far as I remember, I met on the Internet photos or art of the P-39, La-9 (or 11?), Tu-2 and MiG-15 UTI based in Austria.

 

B.R.

Serge

thanks!  actually I did not think of Soviet Forces stationed in the respective countries, less so Austria!!! my mistake!!!  

why those countries? Yugoslav neighbours using Soviet equippment.... that is all

So MiG-15 UTIs based in Austria??! very interesting! would that fit the GB theme... (a trainer?!?)  

[Col.]

59 minutes ago, Aardvark said:

....As I remember, was the same Central Group of Soviet Forces in Austria until 1955.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Group_of_Forces

...

I had no idea there were Soviet forces stationed in Austria after the Great Patriotic War. Thank you for this information Serge

59 minutes ago, Aardvark said:

...On P-39 Aircobra:

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/129-й_гвардейский_истребительный_авиационный_полк

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/352-й_истребительный_авиационный_полк

 

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/69-й_гвардейский_истребительный_авиационный_полк

( By the way, I don’t know if this Aircobra survived in WW2 and base on the airfields of Austria after the war, but pay attention to what a impressive nose art was at Squadron Commander of the 69th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment of the Guard Captain N.I. Proshenkov on the wing of his aircraft P-39 "Air Cobra"

http://waralbum.ru/144619/ )

 

On P-39 Aircobra/ Р-63 Kingcobra:

 

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/67-й_гвардейский_истребительный_авиационный_полк

 

As far as I remember, I met on the Internet photos or art of the P-39, La-9 (or 11?), Tu-2 and MiG-15 UTI based in Austria.

 

B.R.

Serge

I've never been a fan of the P-39/63 series but could make an exception for this one! That nose art is spectacular

There was quite a variety of types stationed in Austria as well. Very interesting.

 

1 hour ago, rafalbert said:

Excellent Col., bring on the 602 Sqn machines, it is always good to see them!

Will try my best but no promises  

 

37 minutes ago, exdraken said:

...So MiG-15 UTIs based in Austria??! very interesting! would that fit the GB theme... (a trainer?!?)  

If the -15 UTI has any weapons capability then it's good for this GB  

[Aardvark]

1 hour ago, exdraken said:

So MiG-15 UTIs based in Austria??!

Recently, I read the latest issue (November-December 2018 or January 2019) of an English aviation magazine, the author is an Englishman, about an Austrian airfield, the article has a photo of a landing plane MiG-15 UTI. Tomorrow I will try to find this photo.

 

55 minutes ago, Col. said:

If the -15 UTI has any weapons capability then it's good for this GB

Armament:
- 1 × 12.7 mm UBK-E machine gun with 150 patr.
- Bombs: 2 × 50 kg or 100 kg

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/МиГ-15УТИ

With bomb I don't see photo, usually there carry drop tanks

, but the machine gun was stationary:

 

1 hour ago, Col. said:

I've never been a fan of the P-39/63 series but could make an exception for this one! That nose art is spectacular

Yes, this nose art is extraordinary rare for Soviet Air Force. I don't remember any other Soviet nose art with women.

But again, there is no evidence that this aircraft survived the war and was subsequently based in Austria. At the same time, his pilot survived the war.

But just recently I met a P-39 based in Austria after the war. I would never remember him because my interest was a jet fighter, but this P-39 was also unusual, it was completely gray like La-9 / La-11, MiG-9 or Yak-15/17. Overall gray P-39 is unusual.

 

B.R.

Serge

[Col.]

3 minutes ago, Aardvark said:

Recently, I read the latest issue (November-December 2018 or January 2019) of an English aviation magazine, the author is an Englishman, about an Austrian airfield, the article has a photo of a landing plane MiG-15 UTI. Tomorrow I will try to find this photo.

 

Armament:
- 1 × 12.7 mm UBK-E machine gun with 150 patr.
- Bombs: 2 × 50 kg or 100 kg

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/МиГ-15УТИ

With bomb I don't see photo, usually there carry drop tanks

, but the machine gun was stationary:

 

Yes, this nose art is extraordinary rare for Soviet Air Force. I don't remember any other Soviet nose art with women.

But again, there is no evidence that this aircraft survived the war and was subsequently based in Austria. At the same time, his pilot survived the war.

But just recently I met a P-39 based in Austria after the war. I would never remember him because my interest was a jet fighter, but this P-39 was also unusual, it was completely gray like La-9 / La-11, MiG-9 or Yak-15/17. Overall gray P-39 is unusual.

 

B.R.

Serge

I'd certainly like to see that photograph Serge. In the meantime that the MiG-15 UTI carried a gun is good enough for me to call it eligible  

You Astrian-based grey P-39 does indeed sound unusual and all the better for it. I've learned a good many things today

[Aardvark]

11 hours ago, Col. said:

'd certainly like to see that photograph Serge. In the meantime that the MiG-15 UTI carried a gun is good enough for me to call it eligible  

It's was a Aeroplane 2018-10 issue article:

(First page):

(And four page with MiG-15UTI):

MiG-15UTI closer:

"15"? "red"?

 

If any problem with copyright for this photo, only tell my - I will delete their from my post.

 

11 hours ago, Col. said:

You Astrian-based grey P-39 does indeed sound unusual and all the better for it.

I'm looking for a resource where I could see it, but I can't remember where it was.

 

B.R.

Serge

[exdraken]

9 hours ago, Aardvark said:

It's was a Aeroplane 2018-10 issue article:

(First page):

 

(And four page with MiG-15UTI):
 

MiG-15UTI closer:

 

"15"? "red"?

 

If any problem with copyright for this photo, only tell my - I will delete their from my post.

 

I'm looking for a resource where I could see it, but I can't remember where it was.

 

B.R.

Serge

thanks! Serge

55 red?

 

ordered a bis today.... will decide later which one to build... but an Autrian based one is set know!

 

any more photos??? please

[modelling minion]

22 hours ago, Col. said:

You Astrian-based grey P-39 does indeed sound unusual and all the better for it. I've learned a good many things today

Here you go Col,

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lendlease/p-39/misos/212giap-44/212giap-44.htm

 

Would make for a very nice model, just with I had the time!

 

Just checked and one of the options in Eduards latest dual P-39 boxing is for a Soviet aircraft based in Austria in 1946.

Edited February 5, 2019 by modelling minion

[Col.]

25 minutes ago, modelling minion said:

Here you go Col,

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lendlease/p-39/misos/212giap-44/212giap-44.htm

Would make for a very nice model, just with I had the time!

Just checked and one of the options in Eduards latest dual P-39 boxing is for a Soviet aircraft based in Austria in 1946.

Not only that but one of the options is the very same one as featured in your link

[Aardvark]

12 hours ago, exdraken said:

55 red?

If this "55" then first digit and the last digit should be visually the same. I do not see it.

11 hours ago, modelling minion said:

Here you go Col,

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lendlease/p-39/misos/212giap-44/212giap-44.htm

 

Would make for a very nice model, just with I had the time!

You saved me from a long (prop aircraft not my theme! 🤗 )

search! Yes, this is the same P-39 about which I wrote! Thank!

But I see this P-39 in some book .... maybe M. Bykov?

 

B.w. @exdraken

maybe something about Soviet Air Force based  in Austria available here:

http://www.soviet-airforce.com/en/

 

Some information about  air battle over Austria 01.21.1956 here:

http://forums.airforce.ru/holodnaya-voina/3953-vozdushnyi-boi-nad-avstriei-21-01-1956-a/

user Kares Vandor in that topic with his words is

aviation historian himself occupies the history of the USSR Air Force in Hungary and Austria, maybe if this theme interested you, he can help you with something.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

[exdraken]

1 hour ago, Aardvark said:

If this "55" then first digit and the last digit should be visually the same. I do not see it.

You saved me from a long (prop aircraft not my theme! 🤗 )

search! Yes, this is the same P-39 about which I wrote! Thank!

But I see this P-39 in some book .... maybe M. Bykov?

 

B.w. @exdraken

maybe something about Soviet Air Force based  in Austria available here:

http://www.soviet-airforce.com/en/

 

Some information about  air battle over Austria 01.21.1956 here:

http://forums.airforce.ru/holodnaya-voina/3953-vozdushnyi-boi-nad-avstriei-21-01-1956-a/

user Kares Vandor in that topic with his words is

aviation historian himself occupies the history of the USSR Air Force in Hungary and Austria, maybe if this theme interested you, he can help you with something.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

thanks again Serge! interesting reading about Soviet and Hungarian MiG-15 and 17 fighting or having an accident over the border..... remember in 1956 there was a (unsuccessful ) popular uprising in Hungary, lots of refugees went to Austria that year!

 

Yeas, I came across this Author, seems to be the same Karoly Vandor who wrote this book:

 

Title: Soviet Air Force in Hungary and Austria
Author : Karoly Vandor

Unfortunately not too much information regarding MiGs in Austria!

 

additionally,

CIA reports from the occupation time are available publicly nowadays:

have a look if you are interested! The airfield obviously only had a grass/ earth runway, still MiG-15s and occasionly even Il-28s operated regularly and in force!

e.g.

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/search/site/WIENER NEUSTADT AIRFIELD

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/document/cia-rdp80-00810a001600730006-8

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A001600730006-8.pdf

 

cheers,

Werner

 

[Aardvark]

5 hours ago, exdraken said:

remember in 1956

No, I do not remember, 🙄because in 1956 I was not born yet! 🤗😁But I read something about it.😎

5 hours ago, exdraken said:

there was a (unsuccessful ) popular uprising in Hungary

Based on my own experience of participation in similar processes in modern times, I would not be so categorical in relation to this expression "popular uprising".

Personally, with respect to the assessment of those events, I am increasingly inclined to the opinions expressed here:

- "Budapest 1956 as an episode of world war"

https://prometej.info/blog/istoriya/budapesht-56-kak-epizod-mirovoj-vojny/

 

- "Hungarian insurrection of 1956"

https://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/3031095.html

 

- "Bloody Budapest 56th"

(Especially piquant is written here:

"In the summer of 1989, the KGB chairman, Vladimir Kryuchkov, handed over to Gorbachev from the KGB archives a stack of documents, which indicated that Imre Nagy was an informer for the NKVD in the pre-war years. Gorbachev then handed over these documents to the Hungarian side, where they were safely hidden and still not presented to the public.
Why Kryuchkov got documents from the archive? He wrote about this in the accompanying note to Gorbachev.
Kryuchkov - to Gorbachev: “Around of Nadya a halo of a martyr and a devil, an exceptionally honest and principled person, is created. Particular emphasis in all the hype around the name Nadya is that he was a "consistent fighter against Stalinism", "a supporter of democracy and a radical renewal of socialism, although the documents prove quite the opposite."")

https://shurigin.livejournal.com/82995.html

If these data are true, then we are nothing more than the use of people by a handful of politicians in their struggle for power, in turn, these politicians were used by other forces within the framework of the global confrontation.

What do I mean by "other forces"?

Use Google search "Операция Фокус" (as examples: "Hungary. 1956 Operation Focus. The first "Orange Revolution" scenario of the CIA")

 

But that's my personal opinion.

I'm not going to impose my opinion on anyone, but can I tell about it, right?

 

5 hours ago, exdraken said:

Unfortunately not too much information regarding MiGs in Austria!

MiG-15 in Austria it's interesting, but for my more interesting soviet MiG-9 & Jak-15 (17?) in Germany.

B.w. on cover one issue French magazine "Le Fana l'Aviation" have art with Yak-15 ( white "60"(white-???),  top-green, bottom  - lt.blue) who intercepted west C-54 over german(?) city. 

 

Someone's know it's really or fantastic?

 

5 hours ago, exdraken said:

CIA reports from the occupation time are available publicly nowadays:

Unfortunately, there are no photos there, so they are relatively useless for modellers. The lack of a photo says either that this is the testimony of field agents or the publication of a photo can still harm someone.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

[Col.]

3 hours ago, Aardvark said:

But that's my personal opinion.

I'm not going to impose my opinion on anyone, but can I tell about it, right?

I've no objections to hearing other sides of a story from that which is constantly presented to us here in the west as facts. In fact I'm glad to hear it. Thank you Serge.

[Aardvark]

3 hours ago, Col. said:

I've no objections to hearing other sides of a story from that which is constantly presented to us here in the west as facts.

I worked for some well-known Western European companies and was close to their decision-making center, so from my point of view I can say that the story was told for the people on TV, the newspaper or the Internet, and how things were in fact often radically different. And at the moment in this matter there is no difference between East and West.

Many things are very difficult to explain and understand if you are not inside or do not have significant amounts of information. As an example, when I promised to write about Lavochkin “against” Mikoyan in my topic about La-15, I suddenly realized that in order for you in the West to understand Lavochkin’s motivations that caused him to brake La-168 and start making La-15 to me have to start story from the 30s....likewise with all these popular uprisings and revolutions, if we consider the very self-assembly, then we can certainly say that the people have rebelled, but if you start looking behind the scenes, in most cases, you will think that in these uprisings the people are only extras and decorations on the common scene.

 

B.w. about behind the scenes in the USSR aviation perhaps very interesting written:

- Valery Menitsky.

"My heavenly life. Memories of a test pilot":

 

- Evgeny Adler

"Earth and Sky

Aircraft Designer Notes":

 

- Oleg Samoilovich 

"Next to Sukhoi. Memories aircraft designer "

 

- Leonid Selyakov "Thorny Way to Nowhere. Notes of the aircraft designer.":

These are people who were inside the system and to some extent were no longer connected by the system, therefore they could afford unpleasant remarks, unlike:

- Alexander Yakovlev. "The purpose of life."

Yakovlev’s memoirs are certainly interesting in their own way, but sharp corners and moments are very much smoothed there.

Many people  say very interesting books Boris Chertok.

Book 1. "Rockets and People."

Book 2. "Rockets and People. Fili-Podlipki-Tyuratam."

Book 3 "Rockets and People. Hot days of the Cold War."

Book 4. "Rockets and People. Moon race"

but I haven't read it yet.

I do not know that, besides Yakovlev,  translated into English, but all these books are available for reading on the Internet in Russian.

 

But who are all these people and why should we believe their memoirs, you ask?

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Меницкий,_Валерий_Евгеньевич

 

http://www.migavia.com/engineers/adler.html

 

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Самойлович,_Олег_Сергеевич

 

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Селяков,_Леонид_Леонидович

 

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Черток,_Борис_Евсеевич

 

B.R.

Serge

 

[TonyTiger66]

Hello 👋 

 

Is it too late for me to join in the fun here?

I’m signed up for the DC-3 and series group build, but before I start my big two engined prop thing on skis, I think it would be a good idea to try something a little less complex.

 

I love the early jet era. I still have a left over, unfinished Yak - 23 from the Record Breakers, Firsts and Prototypes Group Build from a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, it’s more than 25% complete.

 

I wondered what I may have, then spotted a Sukhoi Su-9 hiding in the corner 😲!

 

I checked the World Woed Wait and lo; the Su-9 entered service in 1959 😊👍.

 

 

Please can I bring my toy and glue and come in the sandpit and play 🙏 ?

 

Best regards

TonyT

 

[Col.]

7 minutes ago, TonyTiger66 said:

Hello 👋 

Is it too late for me to join in the fun here?

...I wondered what I may have, then spotted a Sukhoi Su-9 hiding in the corner 😲!

I checked the World Woed Wait and lo; the Su-9 entered service in 1959 😊👍.

 

 

Please can I bring my toy and glue and come in the sandpit and play 🙏?

Always room for more playmates Tony, in you come and join the fun  

[TonyTiger66]

Thank you.

Very nuch appreciated 😊.

 

Just gathering my things together, it’s been nearly two years. 😬.

 

The earliest marking in the kit is for a 1962.

If I can’t find a suitable code for a 1959, would the 1962 be ok?

 

Best regards

TonyT

[Col.]

59 minutes ago, TonyTiger66 said:

The earliest marking in the kit is for a 1962.

If I can’t find a suitable code for a 1959, would the 1962 be ok?

This is another case that comes under the 'most likely' clause of our GB. I'm fairly sure the aircraft in question would not have gone through a significant change in markings in the short period between 1959 and 1962 so by all means go for it  

[Aardvark]

On 2/12/2019 at 1:05 AM, TonyTiger66 said:

I wondered what I may have, then spotted a Sukhoi Su-9 hiding in the corner 😲!

 

I checked the World Woed Wait and lo; the Su-9 entered service in 1959 😊👍.

Su-9 in 50s NATO Vs Warsaw Pact in Europe...."Leaving on the edge"(c)! 😁

 

"Su-9 was adopted in 1960.

By the end of 1959, more than 150 machines were transferred to the front-line regiments, in particular, located in Krasnovodsk (Turkmenistan), Ozerny and Stryi (Ukraine), Baranovichi (Belarus), Kilpyavr (Murmansk), Karshi (Uzbekistan). The planes drove to their bases on their own."

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Су-9

Su-9 has not yet reached combat readiness in 1959, because it was a very difficult  aircraft. This is evidenced by the fact that on May 1, 1960, one of the Su-9 overflight from the factory to the air force took part in the interception of the U-2 Garry Powers over Sverdlovsk. The pilot of this Su-9 was ordered to ram the U-2 because there were no missiles on the plane. In addition, the pilot did not have a suit for altitude compensation, so he could die when the ram was.

Fortunately for the pilot, the Su-9 had a very high speed and he just slipped past the U-2. Then as all knows U-2 shoot down SAM S-75 ...with MiG-19.

 

On 2/12/2019 at 1:05 AM, TonyTiger66 said:

I still have a left over, unfinished Yak - 23 from the Record Breakers, Firsts and Prototypes Group Build from a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, it’s more than 25% complete.

Yak-23 Soviet Air Force based only in European part USSR - The Caucasus and the Volga region, although reports by the CIA indicate their basing both in Poland and in Ukraine SSR. The problem is that the coloring of the Soviet Air Force is very small, but they are.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

[stevej60]

My second build finished folk's so I can sit back and enjoy the other build's here I'll be back with either a 1/48 F-84 or Sabre later on in the GB,

[Enzo the Magnificent]

9 minutes ago, stevej60 said:

 I'll be back with either a 1/48 F-84 or Sabre later on in the GB,

Or maybe both...