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Spitfire HF Mk VIII question


pat d

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Hello, a quick question for the Spitfire boffins here. Maybe I am not looking in the correct reference place but: Were there any HF Mk VIIIs produced that had BOTH the pointed wingtips AND the tall pointed rudder? Thank you for your time and effort on my behalf.

Pat D

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Well, I suspect you're really talking about F.VIIIs.  The standard for early production was the extended wingtip.  I don't know exactly when the "Mk.XII type" rudder (the pointy one) started being fitted to the VIII.  The HF.VIII was done later, at the request of Australia, and by that time the extended tips were done away with.  I think one LF.VIII (not HF) went to Australia with extended wingtips fitted... maybe it had the pointy rudder, but I don't know how long it kept the wingtips.  [Note: a bit more info at post 16]

 

bob

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As far as the introduction of the "pointy" rudder is concerned there is another thread on that subject from a couple of years ago that provides an answer to the introduction of that modification.

 

Post 7 is probably the most helpful.  The conclusion seems to be that most Mk.VIII got the pointed rudder.  So the question is how many got the extended wings.

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It's not a silly question at all.  Early Mk.VIIIs all had the pointed wings.  Late Mk.VIIIs all had the larger rudder.  So the interesting point is when there was a lap-over.  The answer seems to be that the larger rudder was introduced fairly early in production, so both are likelier than neither.  However, the matter is likely to be confused because the pointed wingtips were replaced by standard ones, certainly in the Far East, whereas they only rarely went the other way - one or two in Australia?    Can we assume as a first approximation that the F. Mk.VIIIs had the pointed wings and original rudder, whereas the LF Mk.VIIIs had the standard wings and later rudder?  Only, I suspect, if we don't rely upon it too much.

 

It's an interesting suggestion that the elevators with increased horn balance should only be seen on aircraft with the pointed (broad chord) rudder.  I'm not sure that the reverse would be true, especially allowing for replacement in service.

 

Is there a particular aircraft you wish to do, or are you looking for an aircraft with that particular combination?  If the latter, I'd look for examples in Italy or 81 Sq's initial complement for the ferry to India and initial combat there.  The Xtracolour transfer sheet dedicated to Mk.VIIIs has no example of both "pointies".

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1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

It's an interesting suggestion that the elevators with increased horn balance should only be seen on aircraft with the pointed (broad chord) rudder.

 

It is.  I don't think that there's any direct connection, but a consideration worth... considering!

 

(I started writing a comment earlier, but got distracted, and I'm not sure how helpful it would have been at this point.  Later I should be able to devote a little thought to this.)

 

One point to bear in mind- the dates connected with Modifications are only vaguely useful, because there are several, from "date first talked about in a Mod Committee meeting" to "Well, we don't really have to think about this one anymore".  Figuring out exactly what a particular date signifies can be (at least for me!) puzzling.

 

It is logical that the LF would not have the extended tip, but that doesn't mean that no production LF.VIII had it.  For the other factor, I would like to see some photographic evidence of when the pointy rudder did begin to appear on the VIII.  Perhaps a look at the VII would be worthwhile, too, if one can find enough photos to be statistically useful.

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I've always considered that the first batch of Mk.VIIs had the round rudder, and the later batch the broad chord one.  I've not seen any photo contradicting this.  This would be a dating hint.

 

I think that the link between the broad rudder and the late tailplane is that the extended horn balance as somehow slightly destabilising.  Not sure why it should have been.

 

The Merlin 66 wasn't that low-rated anyway, so I agree that there's no direct link to the tips, but I strongly suspect it is a dating guide.  Isn't it true that no Aussie Mk.VIII had the early rudder?  Also I don't recall seeing any in SEAC colours.  Two more production/dating guides, or at least hints.  But there don't seem to have been many in the ME - which is why the 81 Sq examples are interesting.  Must dig into Bloody Shambles and Spitfires Over  Imphal again.

 

PS.  Not BS but Air War for Burma:P209 a photo of 81 Sq said to be at Imphal (Tulihall?) and at least one round rudder. By then most of the squadron's airframes will have been replaced after overstressing in their initial combats with the Oscars and the pointed tips replaced on the others, but the photo is of no help there anyway.  It's a hint that they brought round rudders with them from the ME, but in the end it is only one fuzzy photo.  There is also a PR Mk.XI with a pointy rudder - another production hint?

Edited by Graham Boak
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I'd no sooner pressed "Submit Reply" than I began to think further and Graham has, I believe hit the nail on the head - when was the crossover point.  So I've been back to the books etc.

 

The first MkVIII came off the production line in Nov 1942.  According to Morgan the first 242 (of an eventual 1661 including 7 ordered as PR.XI) were completed as F.VIII with the Merlin 63.  From the 243rd airframe (JF663) production is supposed to have switched to the LF.VIII.  But the majority of the next 39 airframes seem to have had Merlin 63s fitted suggesting an F.III. In addition some earlier serials (approx 8 in June 1943 produced batches) are noted as LF.VIII. This happened in June / July / Aug 1943 approx. but the completion dates for these batches is a bit muddled (later serials apparently completing before earlier).  As with all these things I've no doubt that old stocks of parts were used as the changeover was being implemented and test fittings were being made.

 

So far the highest serial no I can find a photo of, pre this assumed changeover, is JF627 produced June 1943 and which served with 417 Sqn in the Med.  This had pointed wings and round tail and what looks like the original elevators. All the serials prior to this that I've seen photos of today (5) or seen by another researcher (2) have extended wings and round tail.  Ok not a lot from the population but interesting all the same.  They are also all in service with Mediterranean based sqns.

 

After that the next lowest serials I have found photos of today are JF820 and JF821 (alias the Australian A58-302 and -303 respectively) built August 1943 as LF.VIII with ordinary wings and a pointed tails.  This is some 105 airframes on from JF663 the supposed first LF.VIII.  I haven't been able to find any round tails after that date, nor any extended wings (although it has to be said this is often much harder to detect due to the angle the photo was taken from not to mention the shorter span ailerons making the wingtip seem bigger when seen from behind).

 

The first Aussie Mk.VIII serials were JF620 and JF621 (Alias A58-300 & -301) produced around Aug 1943 and apparently after JF627. As far as I know all the Aussie Mk.VIII had the pointed rudder and normal wings although I haven't seen photos of these 2 particular machines. Morgan has these as LF.VIII but ADR Serials has them as F.III.

 

All this assumes of course that no machine is retro-fitted with features it did not have when it left the production line e.g. pointed tail in place of rounded, removal of pointed wings etc.

 

The earliest squadrons to be equipped were in the Med - 92, 601,145, 417, 1 SAAF and 308th FS 31FG USAAF from Jun to Aug 1943.  Deliveries to the Far East & Australia happened some months later (152 got them in Nov 1943 and the Aussies at the end of Oct and seem largely to be from later serial batches).  I do not recollect seeing any Far East based Mk.VIII with anything other than a pointed tail.

 

I'm coming to the conclusion that the answers lie in the production of the months Jun - Aug 1943 in serial batches

JF501-528

JF557-592

JF613-630

JF658-676

JF692-716

JF740-789

A grand total of 176 machines. 

I'm also becoming convinced that there may not have been any extended wings AND pointed tail machines or if there were they must be about as rare as hen's teeth.  If they did exist the evidence is likely to come from Mediterranean squadrons archives.

 

 

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Re pointy wings and round rudders in the Far East.  The key fact here is that 81 Sq flew from the ME to India in November/December 1943 with pointy wings, and there's a photo (see post 6 above) of one 81 Sq machine with a round rudder.  But what was the serial?  It is only the one example, but it is consistent.  81's aircraft included JF698 from your series, and it went to the ME first. being recorded in India  in January 1944 - sadly just a little late to be one of the 81 Sq ferry.  (Unless it was a laggard that went sick en-route, of course.)

 

My personal preference was for a slightly later date of October 1943, but with the first departures for India and Australia being in July, perhaps that's a better.date.  This does however still assume that all deliveries to these theatres were to the later standard.  Which appears likely but not proven.

 

A long production line like that of the Spitfire will result in (at times) in aircraft being built with whatever was there rather than whatever was desired or planned.  However, it is still most likely that any changes will be introduced at the start of a batch.  Such as to the Merlin 66, and to the later rudder, and to return to the original wingtip.  And if they can all be included at once, under the cover of a new variant designation, so much the better.  In the lack of contradictory evidence, I still see this as the watershed between the F Mk.VIII and the LF Mk.VIII, although obviously only the engine change is dominant.

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It seems 81 sqn was flying Mk.IXs in Italy when it was pulled out on 9 Nov 1943, sent to Egypt where it picked up Mk.VIIIs and flew them to Alipore near Calcutta, being declared operational on arrival by 8 December.  Same thing seems to have happened with 152 sqn.  Seems to have been a rush job.  But it does suggest plenty of spare Mk.VIII sitting at an MU in Egypt at that time.

 

Having had a trawl of the IWM Photo Collection it seems 145MU in Casablanca (the other end of Africa) was responsible for assembling Spitfires in Africa.  There are photos of Spitfires including MK.VIIIs but unfortunately no identifiable serials.  Tails visible are all rounded with pointed wings. Unfortunately the photos are undated. There is one exception but I can't see the wings.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205209323

The airframe in the background seems to me to be JF809? with a pointy tail.  If I'm correct this first flew July 1943 passed through Casablanca and ended up in India with 607 sqn in Jan 1944. The M???? serial in the foreground is more likely to be a Mark IX many of which were passing through around the same time as JF809 would have been.  M???? serialled Mk.VIII production dates from 3/44.

I'm surprised about this.  Previously I'd understood that single engined aircraft were shipped to India by that period not flown.  Perhaps indicative of the urgency around this period.

 

Re the dates of the changes, the first Aussie aircraft (per ADF Serials) arrived in Australia on 21/10/43 with 19 being delivered by 3/11/43.  This includes the 2 I have photos for on the ADF website. The next batch started on 6/12/43.  A58-300 (ex JF620) is noted as having first flown 11/8/43. It passed through 2 MUs before being loaded and travelling half way around the world.  They started to arrive on operational sqns in 3/44.  Having looked at the delivery time for eqpt in wartime before, 7 months from factory to squadron is not too bad, considering the distance involved.

 

The only serial I have for 81 is JF698 / FL-J but I have no idea of its configuration. It first flew in July 1943, went to Casablanca and then on to India at the end of Nov 1943. For 152 I have MD375 / UM-X and MT606 both from later batches I would expect to have ordinary wings and pointed tails being produced around March 1944.

 

I've also found this listing at http://allspitfirepilots.org/aircraft

This has individual aircraft histories and some photos which seems relatively searchable and allows aircraft listings by sqn using the notes box.  But it is not foolproof.

JF805 which first flew on 24/7/43 had a round tail and the modified elevators.  Can't see the wing unfortunately.

JF880 first flew 31/8/43 pointed tail & ordinary wings as an LF.VIII

 

I did turn up a very nice picture of JF814.  The only clipped wing Mk.VIII I've seen. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205209416

 

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Fighter Squadrons of the RAF has six JFxxx serials for 152 Sq, from JF283 to JF918, but no codes nor hint of their configurations.  Plus later ones.

 

PA:  JF809 was AF.N in 607 Sq.  There's a photo of JF755 AF.A in Franks Air Battle of Imphal. Pointy tail.  As do all of 607's Mk.VIIIs seen in photos but the only two I can link with serials are both JGxxx - assuming these were the first with this coding, of course.

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Gentlemen, thank for the prompt response to my query. I have a bit of research to do, I think I may have been confusing the HF Mk. VIII with the Mk.VII in some cases. I did find what I believe was a Mk. VII  with both the extended tips and tall rudder in what appears to be the high altitude fighter colours of MSG / PRU Blue in Shacklady's book.

Again my appreciation and thanks for showing me some paths to take on my research.

Cheers,

Pat D

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Yes, "double pointy" will be the standard production configuration for the Mk.VII, though early ones probably had the "regular" rudder.  Be aware, in case you aren't, that there are a number of detail differences between the VII and VIII, which tend not to be well catered for (if at all) by the kit sellers.

 

bob

 

p.s. I confess to being surprised to read that two squadrons flew their Mk.VIIIs from Egypt to India and beyond! 

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18 hours ago, pat d said:

I have a bit of research to do, I think I may have been confusing the HF Mk. VIII with the Mk.VII in some cases. I did find what I believe was a Mk. VII  with both the extended tips and tall rudder in what appears to be the high altitude fighter colours of MSG / PRU Blue in Shacklady's book.

It's easily done: they're both from about the same period in the production run and share a lot of features.  One handy identification feature is that, owing to its pressurised cabin, the VII doesn't have the step between the sliding canopy and the canopy portion immediately behind it.

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OK, I've done a quick look through some books for Mk.VIII photos (not exhaustive), and looked at a couple of other clues.  Here's what I've come up with so far:

 

Mod 914 introduces the Mk.XII rudder as standard (on VII, VIII, IX, XI).  First date 23/2/43.

Mod 1002 introduces standard in lieu of pointy wingtips.  First date 1/6/43, leaflets I think Sept '43.  There's something that I can't really make out that might say LF, but I can't be sure.

 

Of the serials that I could spot, the last "normal" rudder was on c/n 4469, JF627, first flight 24 June.  (all in my sample were F.VIII)

 

The first identified with the Mk.XII "pointy" rudder was c/n 4598, JF809, first flight 24 July.  (all in my sample were LF.VIII)

 

Australia did not receive Fs, starting with LFs (and as others have said, probably all with the Mk.XII rudder), and the first flight date among those sent to Oz was 11 August.  JF825 (c/n 4643) is the one that arrived with the extended tips, and that first flew on 14 August, going on the first ship for Oz, which departed in September.

 

That narrows it down fairly well (note: I did not yet add any additional "data points" others have provided here), but doesn't yet answer whether Mk.XII rudders only went on LF.VIIIs- July was the first month with "mostly" LFs, but a small number of Fs were also delivered within the next couple of months.  (The first LFs were in May.)

 

Re my earlier comment about flying to India: when I pulled up my Mk.VIII file I discovered notations about some flown to India!  Guess I haven't been paying sufficient attention to Spitfires in recent years... (I'm pretty sure Graham provided me with that information).

 

bob

Edited by gingerbob
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Hi Pat,

 

Keep in mind the HF, F and LF designations were related to the engine type and had nothing to do with the wingtips used. The HF VIII had the Merlin 70 and the HF VII had the Merlin 71 (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Rolls-Royce_Merlin_variants). I've seen pictures of Mk VIIIs with extended wing tips and round rudders referred to as HF VIIIs, yet I don't believe they are correct; I think they are regular early F VIIIs. A serial number check should clear things but I don't have the reference with me.

 

Long time ago I too looked for a Mk VII with extended wing tips and pointed rudder, and the only picture I found was the one of MD124 in Shacklady's book. The extended tips were in service for a short time it seems.

 

Cheers,

Wlad

 

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The Mk.VIIs were commonly seen with the extended tips and late rudder, the most commonly reproduced being the Scapa Flow defender made famous in Clostermann's The Big Show.  Ian Blair's DU-G  MD114.  I don't have the text to hand, but from memory Blair's wingman had an earlier machine, at least hinting at round rudder (or so I happen to remember it!).  In more southern service they retained the tips,  until they were removed mid-1944 when the solitary unit (616, I believe) defaulted to a more standard escort role under Peter Brothers.  There are probably photos in Brothers' book, but I don't have it.

 

It does seem that the extended tips on the Mk.VIII continued in the ME indefinitely.  At the end of 1943, the two squadrons mentioned (81 and another, memory fails) re-equipped with new airframes and flew them to India, as Bob mentions.  The tips were removed in early 1944 (February 15th initially, though apparently some were retained for the operations from Broadway the following month) because of severe distortions of the fuselage and wing when attempting to dogfight Oscars at low-level.  It isn't clear whether any of the Mk.VIIIs delivered to the units already in India ever had the extended tips, but they are missing from all photos and there's no other mention that I've seen.  They all have the later tail, too.

Edited by Graham Boak
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Thank you all again for the information, it has been very helpful. Better service here than at Downton Abby! One of the other things I seem to have noticed was that the Mk,VII seemed to have the short ailerons  like the Mk. VIII . I am assuming the same wing with the L.E. tanks.

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15 hours ago, gingerbob said:

OK, I've done a quick look through some books for Mk.VIII photos (not exhaustive), and looked at a couple of other clues.  Here's what I've come up with so far:

 

Mod 914 introduces the Mk.XII rudder as standard (on VII, VIII, IX, XI).  First date 23/2/43.

Mod 1002 introduces standard in lieu of pointy wingtips.  First date 1/6/43, leaflets I think Sept '43.  There's something that I can't really make out that might say LF, but I can't be sure.

 

Of the serials that I could spot, the last "normal" rudder was on c/n 4469, JF627, first flight 24 June.  (all in my sample were F.VIII)

 

The first identified with the Mk.XII "pointy" rudder was c/n 4598, JF809, first flight 24 July.  (all in my sample were LF.VIII)

 

Australia did not receive Fs, starting with LFs (and as others have said, probably all with the Mk.XII rudder), and the first flight date among those sent to Oz was 11 August.  JF825 (c/n 4643) is the one that arrived with the extended tips, and that first flew on 14 August, going on the first ship for Oz, which departed in September.

 

That narrows it down fairly well (note: I did not yet add any additional "data points" others have provided here), but doesn't yet answer whether Mk.XII rudders only went on LF.VIIIs- July was the first month with "mostly" LFs, but a small number of Fs were also delivered within the next couple of months.  (The first LFs were in May.)

 

Re my earlier comment about flying to India: when I pulled up my Mk.VIII file I discovered notations about some flown to India!  Guess I haven't been paying sufficient attention to Spitfires in recent years... (I'm pretty sure Graham provided me with that information).

 

bob

Bob

I've been looking at this off and on since the original query on Thursday and decided to collate all the information I'd located to try to make some sense of it.  I included factory details in case mods might have been introduced earlier in one than another but have too little data for that to be useful.  The last normal rudder I've got is JF805 with JF809 having a pointed one.  That said a couple of earlier ones seem to have pointed rudders!.  After JF820 everything should be pointed rudder & ordinary wings so far as I can see.  Having said that I've found a picture of what is identified as JF902 with a round rudder.  The scan I have of that is very dark and I can't be 100% certain that is really what it is despite what the book says. It was a wing commander's aircraft and past experience tells me that senior officers had some leeway in how their aircrat were equipped e.g. JF814 with its clipped wings or the initial Aussie 4*20mm aircraft.

 

Re the revised tailplane, I understood that the pointed rudder was introduced to correct stability issues caused by the new tailplane and the Mod 914 was approved in Feb 1943 following testing at the A&AEE of the first Vc with it which took place Feb / Mar 1943.  The first Vc with it was produced in Nov 1942.

As this is when the Mk.VIII came into production, did they all have the modified tail or was that something introduced along the way?  The photo I have of JF627 seems to show an original but it is really difficult to be sure without a planform shot. That was from Halley's Sqns of the RAF & Commonwealth 1918-98 417 sqn page.

 

Note also the delayed first flights of the first 2 Aussie machines JF620 & 621.  The aircraft before & after all flew in late June early July.  This pair were delayed until August.  Are the 2 facts linked in some way i.e. finalising the spec of the machines to go there with them already having been allocated on the production line?

In summary late June to late July 1943 seems to be the period of changeover.  JF627 must be around the last of the "old" spec with JF809 being around the finalisation of the "new" spec.  That gives some 100 airframes in the middle that potentially have a combination of the old and new features.

 

I also note that a lot of these Mk.VIIIs went to the USAAF in the Med (308FS 31FG being fully equipped) along with Mk.IX.  Unfortunately most of these had the serials overpainted or stripped, something which at least in some cases does not appear to have been corrected on their return to the RAF after Mar 1944.

I've not looked at the gun bulges on the upper wing.  I gather from another thread on Britmodeller a couple of years ago that the first 60 or so airframes had the large broad bulge and everything else the slim one.

 

I was going to attach the spreadsheet but the system is fighting me about attaching it!!  I'm happy to send it to anyone that wants it.

 

Spitfire Aces of India & Burma also has a photo identified as an 81 Sqn machine with pointed wings.  Unfortunately no unit codes or serials are visible.

 

On the subject of the India Spits, It looks like 81 and 152 took JF serialled Mk.VIII out east.  Various sources note that the extended wings caused stress issues.  The result seems to have resulted in their early withdrawal because most of the photos of SEAC Mk.VIII are of JG and later batches which hadn't flown until Sept 1943.

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  • 4 years later...

Very informative thread.  

 

Is there any other additional rule of thumb to be added regarding clipped wings usage, other than the already mentioned 'officer's choice'?    Interestingly, RCAF's squadron leader Bert Houle had been quoted as stating:

My favorite fighter was the Spitfire VIII with clipped wings. It had power and good armament. It could roll quickly and out-turn any enemy fighter we encountered. 

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-VIII.html

 

Couple photos from 417. appears to be more than one type of wingtip in use.    The one landing looks to be clipped, while in the background is at least one with extended tips:

Spitfire-MkVIII-RCAF-417Sqn-ANF-Italy-19

spitfireviii-_jf528-jpg.357640

 

 

 

Also a question about the colour scheme, have seen mention in the forums here, that operations over northern Italy saw the introduction of the DFS.  Is it possible to pick a date (or base) that would require this transition?

 

https://www.rcafassociation.ca/heritage/history/rcaf-and-the-crucible-of-war/417-squadron/

Screenshot-2022-08-28-at-10-36-41-417-Sq

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

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Extended wings were standard on all Mk,.VIIs issued into the Middle East/DAF.  As long as they were used as high cover that was fine.  When they tried to dogfight at lower level the Spitfires involved were overstressed and had to be replaced.  This is recorded in the UK with the Mk.VII, and in India with the Mk.VIII.  I have not seen any similar comments from Italy.  Later (but which exactly?) Mk.VIIIs had the standard tips: it is tempting to suggest that this was with the introduction of the Merlin 66 (hence not specifically high altitude by the standards of the time) but this may have been to have been too soon for the recorded problems.  They could of course have been retained/retrofitted for HF operations. 

 

Clipped wings are rare on Mk.VIIIs, but is entirely a matter of choice which would depend upon the altitudes where combat was taking place.  By 1945 the high-altitude operations were diminishing and the use of Spitfires as fighter bombers would make their use more likely.

 

From Spitfire the History photos show JF345, extended tips and early rudder, JG240   extended tips wide rudder, JK535 standard tips, wide rudder and Rotol contraprops. MD249 (ald all photos with later serials) standard tips wide rudder.  MD is the first batch described as LF - Merlin 66 - and appeared in early 1944.  You are free to search for other serials and check their fit, but my rules of thumb are that F Mk,.VIIIs  will be most likely to  have the early kit, except perhaps the wide fin, and LF Mk.VIIIs almost certain to have the later.  This is not a guarantee, and individual machines can always be altered in service.  As always, look for photographs and pay attention to serials.

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